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So yeah, I'm a CSM player, and I can't feel otherwise than that the CSM Codex is a bit outdated, and that the only way to run a decent army list is to always use Plague Marines, Deamon Princes with either MoS MoN, warp time or lash, obliterators, lot of meltas. Anyway, I find that to run a good army, you ain't have many options. Here's what I would like to see if GW updated the CSM Codex:

Deamon Princes
Compared to the WHFB counterpart, the DP seems like a little kid. Send him head on, most of the time, especially againts GK with halberds, he won'T last one combat. Maybe increase his CC or his Initiative and always give him wings (after all, he's a being of pure energy, why would he need physical wings to fly?)

Chaos Lord
No real complain about him seriously except the fact he has the weak stats of his soldiers and the fact deamon weapon is always a bad option. Maybe just change the DW rules so that when he have a 1, he suffer a wound or can choose to redirect it to one of his allies (like in WHFB)

Terminators
The most ridiculous unit in my opinion. These guys are supposed to be living tank-soldiers, and can't even make a stand. Give them more toughness and better melee stats. Or more wounds.

Berzerkers
I think they should have more initiative or more wounds or more toughness. By definition, a berzerker is a frenzied warrior that can take many hits before dying. Maybe take back the charge rule.

Thousand Sons
Give them feel no pain since they are spirits bound to their armors.

Possessed
They should be more tought or more frenzied. Man, did anyone ever seen the exorcist?

Dark Apostle
Their problem: they don't exist. We should have the option to bring these guys in like in previous ed.

Deamons
We should be able to use the reals ones.

The Marks
Keep the present idea, but don't just give +1. Give +2 or +1 with another benefit.

Icons
Marks and Icons should be two seperate thing, and the Icons should give access to special abilities or rules different thant the marks and only be avaible to regular CSM.

Weapons
The guns are okay, but where is the supposed knowledge of the Dark Mechanicus? I don't see any real heretic weapons here. Only relics dating from a long way back to the past.

Gifts of Chaos
Want them back. Period.

Chosen
Really make them Chosen of the Dark Gods. Not some low-bunch of old veteran that has learned to be stealthy. Give them better stats, keep the equipment choice.

Chaos Legion Theme
The SM are divided in different armies, why not the CSM? Or at least allow us to have a bonus if we choose a theme.

Don't give the 'Zerkers higher initiative. The Noise Marines are there for that.
I highly agree with the 'theme' idea.

Throw the current codex in bin and right a new one but don't let that man people don't like. I'm not going to mention his name due to a lot of hate.
His name ryms with catt bord.
Peace

If you don't care about fluff and the reasoning behind special rules and wargear, pray that Matt Ward writes the codex.
After seeing how he OP'd the GK dex, can you imagine what he'll do with CSM?
Possessed will be like I6 power weapon with some skill that wounds all enemy models on a 4+ which COUNTS towards combat resolution! My god. And like, some skill that brings them to S5 or instant death.

terranarc wrote:If you don't care about fluff and the reasoning behind special rules and wargear, pray that Matt Ward writes the codex.
After seeing how he OP'd the GK dex, can you imagine what he'll do with CSM?
Possessed will be like I6 power weapon with some skill that wounds all enemy models on a 4+ which COUNTS towards combat resolution! My god. And like, some skill that brings them to S5 or instant death.

I think that he should just stick in the rules department. Does a good job there. My hate on him is mostly just for fun or hatin' on his fluff-work, which is not his forte. For all of the "OP-ness" of his recent Codices, there are ways to deal with them.
So my vote does go with him, so then the army I start with will be awesome later on


EDIT: Grammer

I agree that the marks as they are now are bland.

Mark of nurgle should grant FNP, Tzeench should allow the unit to have a aspiring scorcerer, khorne should give furious charge, and units with mark of slaanesh should get sonic weapons.

Some more flavor behind the generic lesser and greater demons would be nice, since they stripped all the other demons away for their own codex.

Some more fast attack options are needed, possibly demons with fleet or attack bikes would be nice.

Or more viable Raptors. Those guys look so cool.

yeah raptors looks cools but in fact, their just dudes with the regular CSM stats and Jump Packs.

Most of your ideas are really not good or balanced. Chaos Terminators shouldn't have more wounds or toughness unless they're marked with Nurgle. Khorne Berserkers DEFINITELY shouldn't have more wounds, and they already have higher initiative because of Furious Charge. Daemon Princes are actually a little undercosted, and are very good. The reason they lose against Grey Knights with halberds is because Grey Knights are specifically made to kill them.

Look for Justdave's Chaos codex. I don't think it's perfect, but it might give you somewhere reasonable to start from looking for balance.

Deamon Princes
Compared to the WHFB counterpart, the DP seems like a little kid. Send him head on, most of the time, especially againts GK with halberds, he won'T last one combat. Maybe increase his CC or his Initiative and always give him wings (after all, he's a being of pure energy, why would he need physical wings to fly?

-More options is always a good thing, changing his stat line besides +1 to toughness however, isn't.

Chaos Lord
No real complain about him seriously except the fact he has the weak stats of his soldiers and the fact deamon weapon is always a bad option. Maybe just change the DW rules so that when he have a 1, he suffer a wound or can choose to redirect it to one of his allies (like in WHFB)

-What are you talking about? Demon weapons are incredible. They carry a risk but the reward can be a dead enemy squad.

Terminators
The most ridiculous unit in my opinion. These guys are supposed to be living tank-soldiers, and can't even make a stand. Give them more toughness and better melee stats. Or more wounds.

-They are the same as all other terminators, save they start with power weapons. Fine as is.

Berzerkers
I think they should have more initiative or more wounds or more toughness. By definition, a berzerker is a frenzied warrior that can take many hits before dying. Maybe take back the charge rule.

-Berserkers are completely fine as is.

Thousand Sons
Give them feel no pain since they are spirits bound to their armors.

-Feel no pain is a nurgle thing, they have the flipping invun save instead to represent that they are just armor.

Possessed
They should be more tought or more frenzied. Man, did anyone ever seen the exorcist?

-Possessed need to just be cheaper is all, no other change is necessary, other than perhaps if a champion is in the unit, they can re-roll for the random bonus they get.

Dark Apostle
Their problem: they don't exist. We should have the option to bring these guys in like in previous ed.

-Could be fixed in the next edition, but I really want cultists before that.

Deamons
We should be able to use the reals ones.

-No argument here, but then what do we do with the demon codex?

The Marks
Keep the present idea, but don't just give +1. Give +2 or +1 with another benefit.

-Marks are fine as is.

Icons
Marks and Icons should be two seperate thing, and the Icons should give access to special abilities or rules different thant the marks and only be avaible to regular CSM.

-We shall see what they do, but their should only be one type to simplify things.

Weapons
The guns are okay, but where is the supposed knowledge of the Dark Mechanicus? I don't see any real heretic weapons here. Only relics dating from a long way back to the past.

-You know that the hereteks would basically be techpriests as in the guard codex, and there are plenty of weapons. Demon weapons, the dreads, the noise marine weapons, obliterators, possession, ect

Gifts of Chaos
Want them back. Period.

-Go play chaos demons.

Chosen
Really make them Chosen of the Dark Gods. Not some low-bunch of old veteran that has learned to be stealthy. Give them better stats, keep the equipment choice.

-Better stats in terms of ws 5 and bs 5? Sounds fine by me.

Chaos Legion Theme
The SM are divided in different armies, why not the CSM? Or at least allow us to have a bonus if we choose a theme.

-Yes, this has been said many times. Provide benefits for mono armies as standard in the codex.


Also this whole list smacks of getting stomped by grey knights.

I would say cheaper Raptors or atleast make them more in pair with GK Interceptors.
Since 20p for a Raptor and 26p for a Interceptor aint fair.

Interceptor get a Storm Bolter, Force Weapon, 2psy powers, a 30" one time teleport, a "free" "champion" or rather Justicar, psykout grenades, and they sall know no fear, The aegis, heavy weapons (psycannon), the aegis, Preferred Enemy (deamons) and a bounch of nasty upgrades all for 6p more. Oh and Interceptors can have melta o plasma weapons.

Personally I dont call that balanced or fair.


And I think that terminators should maby have the option to pick storm shields. This would ofc be op with mark of Tzeentch since +2 inv save is nasty, but maby this could be fixed in some way.


Then there is "Fail Abbadon the armless" who should get some tactical bonus special rule, since he is the "supreme" leader of CSM and credited as a master tactician. And not to whine but "everybody" else have it

Fix the Dreadnought rule, "Crazed" its sucks badly and is the only reason I don't play them much.

- Fix the Lords, they are too expensive and do nothing at all for your army. No, random and expensive daemonweapons which hit you in the face on a bad roll aren't fun.
- Better and free ( just like the Librarian has if i remember right ) spells for the Sorcerers. They currently have warptime and the rest is either meh or plain sucky.
- Cheaper Icons. All but the chaos glory one are grossly overpriced, especialy in small squads.
- Chaos Marines need to be either cheaper or better. Currently they are utterly overshadowed by Grey Hunters and, to a certain degree ( mainly reliability as object holding troopchoice ), even tactical marines ( free weapons, atsknf, combat squads, combat tactics )
- Defilers need to become worthwhile. Higher Weaponskill and I would be nice but AV 13 is a must ( av 12 at that size is a joke ).
- Raptors need to be cheaper
- Chosen need a buff, perhaps something similar to wolfguard? ( was that the name?)
- Rhinos are ok
- Landraiders in their current form suck thanks to no machine spirit. Don't know how to fix that without copying the loyalist ones ( mainly the Crusader )
- Pred needs to become cheaper, just like the loyalist one
- Possessed are currently overpriced and pretty bland. Make them either cheaper or better
- Dreads suffer from their sucky insanity rule, fix that/ remove the roll
- Berserkers are slightly overpriced and suffer from not having an adequate delivery vehicle ( Rhino is no assault vehicle and the LR is expensive ). Perhaps just make them cheaper
- 1k sons need to become dramaticaly cheaper. Together with better sorcerous powers for their aspiring sorcerer this might fix them
- Daemon of all kinds suck, yes, even the greater one. Make them either more powerful or cheaper
- Noise Marines get sonic blasters for free

Brother SRM wrote:Most of your ideas are really not good or balanced. Chaos Terminators shouldn't have more wounds or toughness unless they're marked with Nurgle. Khorne Berserkers DEFINITELY shouldn't have more wounds, and they already have higher initiative because of Furious Charge. Daemon Princes are actually a little undercosted, and are very good. The reason they lose against Grey Knights with halberds is because Grey Knights are specifically made to kill them.

Look for Justdave's Chaos codex. I don't think it's perfect, but it might give you somewhere reasonable to start from looking for balance.

^

Someone beat me to it, but here's the link to his codex.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/340878.page

KingDeath wrote:- Fix the Lords, they are too expensive and do nothing at all for your army. No, random and expensive daemonweapons which hit you in the face on a bad roll aren't fun.
- Better and free ( just like the Librarian has if i remember right ) spells for the Sorcerers. They currently have warptime and the rest is either meh or plain sucky.
- Cheaper Icons. All but the chaos glory one are grossly overpriced, especialy in small squads.
- Chaos Marines need to be either cheaper or better. Currently they are utterly overshadowed by Grey Hunters and, to a certain degree ( mainly reliability as object holding troopchoice ), even tactical marines ( free weapons, atsknf, combat squads, combat tactics )
- Defilers need to become worthwhile. Higher Weaponskill and I would be nice but AV 13 is a must ( av 12 at that size is a joke ).
- Raptors need to be cheaper
- Chosen need a buff, perhaps something similar to wolfguard? ( was that the name?)
- Rhinos are ok
- Landraiders in their current form suck thanks to no machine spirit. Don't know how to fix that without copying the loyalist ones ( mainly the Crusader )
- Pred needs to become cheaper, just like the loyalist one
- Possessed are currently overpriced and pretty bland. Make them either cheaper or better
- Dreads suffer from their sucky insanity rule, fix that/ remove the roll
- Berserkers are slightly overpriced and suffer from not having an adequate delivery vehicle ( Rhino is no assault vehicle and the LR is expensive ). Perhaps just make them cheaper
- 1k sons need to become dramaticaly cheaper. Together with better sorcerous powers for their aspiring sorcerer this might fix them
- Daemon of all kinds suck, yes, even the greater one. Make them either more powerful or cheaper
- Noise Marines get sonic blasters for free

- I think the Lord is ok as it is, maby give him some choices that gives bonus to your army or te squad he joins tough.
- Yes on the spell part for the sorc.
- Balance out the normal CSM would be nice yes, but I personally think they are ok and if they change the icons (making them better even tough I like them aswell) the CSM will benefit from that.
- Giving the Defiler AV 13 would be nice since they are so big and easy to hit.
- I so agree on the raptor part as earlier stated.
- Giving the Landraider free Daemonic Possession without the -1bs and give it some more options. And yes it suck that it dont have "power of the macine spirit".
- Yes they need to change possessed.
- Yes the dread has the sucky insanity and CSM only have 1dread choice, maybe a "daemonic" dread as Heavy?
- The 1k sons sorc need to be dramaticly changed, 60p (and then come the added cost for the spell) for a modell alot weaker than for example a 55p Paladin.
- Allowing the use of normal troop daemons for CSM would be nice, or atleast giving them some god specific "powers", since now you can have a mix of all in the same squad.