Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It's always "cowardice" this and "martial prowess" that until the big guns have their say.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Navy and Guard are different organisations.

Plus boarding torpedos are weapons./

The guard generally doesn't go anywhere without the Navy to get them there however, and the SM's ships are extremely limited in number, usually limited to a single ship on most missions and often isn't in much position to provide direct fire support.

Boarding torpedoes have to get close and avoid interception

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but the Navy AREN'T the Guard.

Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

And a company needs 1 strike cruiser, which is far less than what an equivalent amount of Guardsmen would need.

Which would likely mean a greater number of IN ships with more guns to provide orbital fire support yes? That was kinda my point. A Strike Cruiser generally won't win a battle with an IN cruiser. In BFG terms, an Imperial Navy cruiser has 33% more hit points than an Astartes Strike cruiser and more guns.

And it doesn't matter with the torpedoes. Once they land, the ship belongs to the astartes. Not only can it be counted out of the fight, it may very well have been captured.

Not really, first they have to land, which they often don't, they can be intercepted by fighters and point defense systems, they typically aren't utilized until such defenses have been neutralized, which is much harder to do for an SM ship against an IN ship than vice versa. Then the ships still have all sorts of means of defending themselves, they can vent sections to space and blow the marines out of the ship, plus their own complements of marines, which, while not Space Marines, aren't useless. Boarding actions by SM's are by no means assured that the ship is immediately out of the fight. An IN cruiser is 5Km long, it's huge, it takes a ton of time for SM's to traverse through that against thosuands of crewmembers and armed marines that it could be very long minutes or even hours before they reach anything of importance, if they can at all. Hence why boarding torpedoes in BFG aren't an auto-win, they just inflict a certain level of damage.

Also, given the marines typically limited numbers, do they have enough for space battles and boaring large IN sized vessels *and* planetary ops?

And what do you mean "isn't in position for fire support"?

Unless it's in relatively low orbit (and thus vulnerable to anti-orbital defenses) in an orbit that places it relatively above the target, then it can't provide support. Given that we're usually talking a single Strike Cruiser, unless it's the only thing in orbit and there's no defenses, it's likely got other things to do.

Seaward wrote:The SM Chapter Master's "Orbital Bombardment" ability would seem to disagree with what you say.

As would every fluff depiction of Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers as being exceptionally well-armed.

They're very well armed for close orbit bombardment, but then aren't always in a postion to provide that either. In game 40k isn't a super accurate representation of lots of stuff, a Chapter Master isn't always going to have access to orbital fire support on every battlefield just because he's there for instance.

Regardless, while yes, SM ships are well armed for close orbit bombardment, an SM fleet however is going to find itself in a poor position against an IN fleet in a ship to ship shooting war, and lacks the BFG equivalent of Ordnance weapons which are Nova Cannons. That's by design since the Horus Heresy so SM's would have a difficult time challenging the IN if they wanted to go rogue. An IN fleet will be able to wreak greater destruction on a planet or opposing fleet than an Astartes fleet will.

While yes, for some reason orbital bombardment sometimes has a Lance profile (IIRC they may have only been the old Daemonhunters book), SM ships are not armed with Lances aside from a rare handful of small escorts that the IN and the INQ try to limit them access to.

Is Gothic a game about providing orbital fire support to planetary assaulters?

Some scenarios do cover that yes.

to suggest they don't have the assets to conduct orbital bombardment prior to landing is a little wonky.

Nobody is saying they don't. Only that orbital support isn't always an option, especially past the opening phases, and that the IN has bigger ships and even bigger guns.

Even so, most battle barges can bring an obscene amount of fire-power to bear. Almost as much as the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy"

And this illustrates perfectly what I'm driving at. it's *almost* as much firepower as a Grand Cruiser, which means, not quite as much, and Grand Cruisers aren't the largest ships in the Imperial Navy.

Seaward wrote:

But Battlefleet Gothic is?

When we're talking about starships, probably better than tabletop 40k which is close range tactical ground combat fought within ranges of a few hundred meters. Orbital bombardments from starships would be levelling the entire battlefield with single salvos, not merely dropping tank shell blasts for instance.

Regardless, while yes, SM ships are well armed for close orbit bombardment, an SM fleet however is going to find itself in a poor position against an IN fleet in a ship to ship shooting war, and lacks the BFG equivalent of Ordnance weapons which are Nova Cannons. That's by design since the Horus Heresy so SM's would have a difficult time challenging the IN if they wanted to go rogue. An IN fleet will be able to wreak greater destruction on a planet or opposing fleet than an Astartes fleet will.

Every fluff example we have of SM ships completely contradicts this point, just for the record.

Not really, BFG fluff, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch RPG fluff, etc all supports this, as does the descriptions of the Codex Astartes breaking down the Astartes from large integrated fighting forces and the split of the IN from the Imperial Army. Most 40k tabletop fluff doesn't go into stuff like this in huge detail, especially IN vs SM stuff, because it's not part of the main game. The stuff that does go into it really makes it clear that the IN has the upper hand in space warfare. Keep in mind that heresy era stuff and CSM vessels don't fall under these same restrictions.

EDIT: There's a reason why Space Marines are somewhat of a "niche-race" in BFG, a standard BFG sized fleet can be large enough to be many chapters entire fleet, and being geared more towards delivering and supporting shock troops to surface targets, tends to have issues with purely space battles.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

Yes there is. Saying that the Imperial Guard have bigger guns than the Astartes was the original comment. Someone else posted about Astartes starships to refute that point. Bringing in a third organisation (the Imperial Navy) completely changes the topic. The Astartes have bigger guns than the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Navy is irrelevant.

No, because again, without the Navy, the Guard doesn't fight. If the guard is present, the Navy is present and working in conjunction with them, unless it's a world where they are simply a garrison of some sort.

Also, Battlefleet Gothic rules don't necessarily dictate the background. Astartes had to get involved in the Badab War for a reason.

Because the Astartes involved themselves in it, very few IN/IG assets were devoted to that conflict in general. it's basically a story designed from the ground up to be a 41st millenium Horus Heresy style SM vs SM war.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:]
Maybe the Guard forces get in a separate dispute with the Astartes that the Navy don't want to involved in unnecessarily. Maybe it's a case of mistake identity, or outright treachery, and the Navy doesn't actually know who is in the right. Possibly the Navy ships are preoccupied. Who knows. Point was, it was Guard against Astartes, not Guard and Navy against Astartes.

Possible, but again, if the IN is there,there's likely an overall commander with authority over both, and if that commanders forces get embroiled with the SM's, then he's not just going to sit there while one part of his forces fights something else.

Again, if the Guard goes somewhere, the IN is there with it, and they're not going to be acting disctinctly.

Okay, fair enough. Even still, the Space Wolves defeated the vastly superior forces they were fighting agianst when Cardinal Bucharis ordered his forces to take Fenris.

Ecclesiarchal forces, not Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy forces IIRC. Also, with SW's, there's always a magical a good bit of plot armor, they really can't ever lose at anything. They're intricate spymasters, space berzerkers, masters of mobile warfare, space pranksters, monsters of close combat, mighty fortress builders, dark executioners, goofy drunkards, astounding psykers, psysker haters, all in one at the same time.

Is that what it used to be? Silly indeed, by any realistic standard even for the Astartes they'd be overwhelmed in hours. However in the current book it just talks about several orders of sisters being involved in a 3 week war.

im2randomghgh wrote:
That does not change the fact that the Imperial Guard is, unlike SM, and organisation incapable of bringing the largest ships into the fight.

If both the IN and IG are operating in the same area, there's a common commander with authority over both and officers with the authority to order support from starships. The IG officers can't order the starship to go to a particular destination or anything, but they can order bombardments under the shared command structure of the Munitorum.

If we're giving support from outside organisations, why don't we go ahead and let the Mechanicus, Arbites, Custodes, Astropathica, Navis Nobilite, Officio Assassinorum etc. join the SM? after all, they usually support each other.

Because, aside from the Navis Nobilite which the SM's also make use of, they're completely separate organizations. The IN and IG are both under the Munitorum.

The flaw in your logic is so overwhelmingly enormous that it boggles the mind.

No, you just don't understand the structure under which they operate, not my fault.

They're both under the shared command of the Munitorum, meaning their senior commands are identical. Hence if one gets drawn in, so does the other. If you fight the Arbites, the Mechanicus doesn't get involved. If you fight the Astartes, the Custodes don't get involved. If you engage PDF the Guard doesn't necessarily get involved nor does the Officio Assassinorum. If you're fighting the Guard, the Navy must by necessity be involved.

And the Imperial navy does indeed hold the galaxy together, almost always without the guard.

As long as you're referring to shipping lanes in space. Without the Imperial Guard the Imperium would disappear overnight with nothing but highly variable PDF forces and one Space Marine per world.

And the Guard fight on home soil rediculously often. Go speak to a Cadian.

Right...I never said the guard don't fight on "home soil". However the only time the IN isn't there for the IG in some capacity is isolated garrison forces.

And as long as we're talking about Cadia, we are talking about the same planet and sector with probably the largest Imperial Navy presence outside the Sol sytem?

AND the ships that transport the Guard, the troopships (which still belong solely to the navy), are NOT made for war. They are the terrestrial equivalent of a ferry.

And are escorted to combat zones by warships...

Whereas The Marines ships ARE made for war, and have huge amounts of redundancy and can survive horrific damages from ships many, many times their size.

Not really, for example Space Marine Strike cruiser will typically lose a direct engagement with an Imperial Navy Cruiser given the only available comparable stats which appear in Battlefleet Gothic.

I didn't even bother reading most of your post, so stunned I was by your opening statement. (I only got half way)

Which says way more about you and your stance than mine buddy. If you can't be bothered to read, understand, and respond to an argument, or are simply overawed by those I put forth, then it looks like my job is done.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Doesn't change the fact that they are not the same entity.

Go ahead, point me to a Regiment that owns a space craft. You can't? Aww.

They don't even own their in-atmosphere craft, as these are merely lent to Regiments for specific engagements. (Except for the Elysians)

They aren't directly the same entity, but they're both part of the Adeptus Munitorum meaning they share a common upper command structure. You'll never have IG without the Navy unless it's some isolated defense force, and if the IG and IN are operating together, then they'll have a common commander, so they're effectively operating as the same entity. The upper command, supply, commissariate, etc resources and channels. They're all "Adeptus Munitorum" organizations.

No different than the fact that most of a Space Marine Chapters personnel are not in fact Space Marines, but Chapter Serfs, the Chapter doesn't work without them.

Seaward wrote:This is another one of those fun situations where fluff and tabletop stats aren't even within miles of each other. Space Marine fleet vessels in fluff are more than capable of holding their own against almost anything the Imperial Navy could throw at them

The actual GW studio fluff says otherwise.

- and some, like the Eternal Crusader, are in a class all their own.

The Eternal Crusader isn't a typical Space Marine vessel, and the IN has its own one-off mega-ships as well.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Not really, for example Space Marine Strike cruiser will typically lose a direct engagement with an Imperial Navy Cruiser given the only available comparable stats which appear in Battlefleet Gothic.

However, the only available background that I know of tells of a Strike Cruiser not only defeating, but defeating seemingly unscathed an Imperial Navy Cruiser.

A single, isolated battle doesn't say a whole lot about what would typically happen. Also, if this is from a BL book (not familiar with what battle you're talking about) they aren't exactly required to know what they're talking about, if you've read the Space Wolves omnibus they talk about the IG fielding large numbers of Predators and Rhinos for instance. GW studio fluff very clearly states that the SM ships are not generally capable of going toe to toe with IN ships, Battlebarges can but are incredibly rare and outnumbered by similarly capable IN ships. The IN and Inquisition watch SM fleets and acquisitions very closely to ensure that they *don't* gain the capabilities to adequately challenge the Imperial Navy.

im2randomghgh wrote:
IG rely on goodwill from the navy to even get to the batllefield, Astartes don't.

They don't rely on goodwill, both are Munitorum organizations. An order comes from Segmentum Command and both organizations carry it out. They are departments of the Munitorum, not completely separate and autonomous organizations.

SM are as likely to have naval support as Guard.

For every Navy ship you add to the IG, and an identical one to the space marines.

And in that case, the IN will have the advantage because it's ships are bigger and most SM chapters only have a dozen starships, of which maybe 1/3 to 1/2 aren't Escorts, while a Sector Battlegroup (of which there are tens of thousands) will have 75-100 Capital Ships and many more escorts.

Saying that their ties to the Munitorum make them one thing is bull gak. SM have ties to the Ad Mech and the Emprah himself. Does that make every space marine an Emperor?

No, it just shows you don't have any idea of what you're talking about or how this whole thing works and probably won't get it or budge on anything no matter what I or anyone else says because you just don't want to actually debate this. Both the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard are organizations under the shared command of the Munitorum. That means they are different parts of the same whole with an identical high command.

To put it another way, look at it like the US military. Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force are all different organizations but share a common structure and organization and overall command (joint chiefs) with a unified system of laws and similar if not identical heirarchies. Officers from one branch can give orders in some respects to forces from another but cannot take direct command of anything as they feel like it, but they operate as one whole under the Department of Defense as lead by the Join Chiefs of Staff, which the 40k equivalent would be the Departmento Munitorum.

The Space Marines would be like the Secret Service (well, the Custodes would but it still fits) while the Inquisition would be the Justice Department and the Officio Assasionorum would be CIA operatives. These organizations have no interconnection with the Department of Defense except through the President of the United States (who we could equate to the Emperor or High Lords) and operate completely independently of each other except in exceptional circumstances as ordered by the President of the United States, whereas the various armed forces under the Department of Defense (as equated to the Departmento Munitorum) are all interconnected with linked command structures, supply systems and legal systems and whatnot and by their very nature operate with the others under an overall shared command at some level.

Hell no. There's a reason the Imperial Army no longer exists: That organisation became the Guard and Navy so that they would never be unified.

They aren't in the way they used to be, an Imperial Guard general cannot command a starship and a Navy captain cannot order a ground invasion. That doesn't mean they are completely distinct organizations the way the Space Marines and AdMech or Custodes are. There is no shared command between the AdMech and the Space Marines, no common legal structure or command heirarchy, with the IG and Navy there is.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. The Imperial Guard and Navy are not one organisation in any sense of the word. The guard cannot compare the size of their guns to those of the astartes because the astartes have starships. So does the Navy, though it is irrelevant because we were talking about guard and SM. That's really all there is to it.

And once you start bringing in starships you by necessity must bring in the IN because they go along with the IG part and parcel, they IG can't fight without the IN to get them to the fight, resupply them, etc.

You mistook that statement enormously. I meant for every (for example) Emperor-class ship you add to the navy, add one Emperor-class ship to the astartes.

First off, why? The SM's don't have anywhere near the same numbers of such vessels, many chapters don't have them at all.

second off, that wasn't exactly clear. I have no idea why the fuuck you started spilling out horribly incorrect numbers.

Evading language censors to insult me instead of actually engaging the arguments I'm putting forth (Ad Hominem Fallacy) isn't exactly posting within the Dakka forum guidelines. Those numbers are from the Battlefleet Gothic source material which it's obvious you aren't familiar with despite it being available free online.

3. Your sheer wrong-ness hurts my soul. Those were just entirely flawed analogies. Don't even get me started.

How so, if they're wrong, then point it out?

Everything I post you simply reply with "WRONG!" without actually saying anything, arguing the point, or providing counter-examples or citing source material. Your pulling the equivalent of plugging your ears and yelling "LALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU".

You don't want to actually debate anything here, and when someone points out something that proves you wrong, you just ignore it and respond with "YOU'RE WRONG" and not saying why...

As to the Ad Mech-Astartes, they are much, much, MUCH closer than Navy-Guard could ever, ever be. The Ad Mech regulates space marine gene-seed. Can you fathom that amount of trust?

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of the SM's complying with a mandate if they want to survive to ensure they aren't suffering mutation or attract Inquisitorial attention, and it's not a matter of the SM's and AdMech engaging in battle or operating together, the Space Marines are far more autonomous from the AdMech than the IG/IN, I'm not sure how you're arguing otherwise. The AdMech produces, maintains, and equips all Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy vessels, vehicles and weapons, provides techpriests to accompany them into battle, etc providing much more direct battlefield support if we're going to go that route.

Also, roughly 1% of Space Marines are those of the tech variety.

And there are actual Techpriests attached to Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy units...so what?

PLUSPLUSPLUS

Are we in a shouting match here?

without the intervention of the Imperial Fist SPACE MARINES, the Mechanicus would have been destroy by the Dark Mechanicum during the Schism of Mars.

And the IG and IN have supported the mechanicus in numerous wars and vice versa thousands of times as well, that has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation.

4. No.

No? No what?

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. No, Ships are part of the Astartes armoury, and not a part of the Imperial Guard armoury. It really doesn't need to be more complicated then that, not sure why the hell you would insist on complicating things.

Because things aren't that simple. Again, trying to take the IG by itself just isn't the way it works, just as nobody fights a war against the US army without engaging the US Air Force, US Navy (which sends fight aircraft many hundreds of miles inland to support operations), and typically the US Marines as well. The only time you'll fight any one of these things on their own is small isolated engagements, just as the only time the IG fight without assistance from the IN is when they're isolated garrissons.

2. The point was, again, miss interpreted by you. The point was that in an Astartes-Guard Total war, the SM would get at LEAST as much, if not many, many times more support from the navy then would the guard.

Depends on the forces available, in some situations perhaps yes, but on the balance the IN is much stronger and much larger and much more available than Astartes naval support which is designed for quick engagements where hopefully only one ship is needed.

Also, I would like to point out, in naval battles, the SM still fight. IG don't.

Which wasn't part of the discussion. However they often do fight boarding actions and ship defense if on board. The previous IG codex had a story about an IG regiment boarding repelling Ork boarders and counterattacking into the Ork vessel, driving them off.

3. I did not insult you, I used strong language for emphasis of a point. Anyways, your numbers ARE incorrect. There are 50-75 ships per sector battlefleet, not all of which are capital ships. (Lexicanum). Also, the milky way is roughly 100,000 LY in diameter and 1000 LY thick. With each Sector being roughly 200 Cubic LY, and only a miniscule fraction of space being Imperial, Meaning there is absolutely no way there are tens of thousands of sectors.

Assuming those dimensions (100,000wide x100,000long x1,000 tall) we get 10,000,000,000,000 cubic LY in the Galaxy. Divide that by 200 Cubic LY per sector and we get a total of 50,000,000,000 (50 billion) total possible sectors. Tens of thousands of sector battlefleets at that point is an insignificant proportion.

5. Yes. Just not 1% of the IG.

They probably don't need that many, regardless I'm sure there are many crewman capable of routine maintenance and repair because otherwise nothing would function. It still doesn't show a greater link.

7. IG and Navy have supported the Admech before. But they have never saved Mars, and the entire modern Mechanicus with it.

That was ten thousand years before, and the IG and IN have saved many vital forgeworlds and technologies in the intervening timeframe, and the Mechanicus has had it's own run ins with the Astartes as well. Regardless, it still doesn't mean that they're closer in terms of operations than the IG and IN are, they just may have fonder memories of each other at best. The mechanicus does not ride to war with the astartes. It does with the IG and IN and the IG an IN ride to war together under the same strategic command.

8. No.

Again, no what?

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. With a theater of war 9460528.4x 10 to the power of twelve kilmeters across, every engagement is an isolated engagement. The fastest jets can cross the world in an hour, whereas even with warp travel it could take generations to cross the breadth of the galaxy.

Except often there are navy ships nearby or already there (such as Cadia) or if the IG has to be brought there, then of course the navy is involved...

2. -_- you managed to miss it AGAIN. TBH I don't even care. I won't try anymore. Forget this point.

Which points?

3. If they happen to be there, they won't stand Idle. But astartes take full control of defensive and offensive boarding actions, and even captain their own ships. Unlike Guard. Who don't even have ships. And if you love US military analogies so much, I'll use it to describe your logic. If the USMC and US Army went to war, you think the Army would win because all the other branches would side with them by default and all gang up on the marines.

That's a rather poor analogy there. The US marines aren't an independent organization that answers to practically nobody, they're heavily reliant on other services and are part of the same command structure. The Space Marines would be more like the ATF or Secret Service in terms of their relation here, completely distinct organizations that have little or no connection operational link to the others. What you are describing would be more akin to the IN fighting the IG.

4. Except it is not a rectangle. It is a cylinder.

Ok fine, we'll do it that way. Volume= (3.14)xRadius^2xHeight.

So we get 3.14x50,000^2x1000=7,850,000,000,000 so 21.5% smaller than the way I did it before, not a huge difference on the scales we are talking about.

And 200x200x200 (one sector)

Apparently somebody doesn't know how cubic measurement works. 200 cubic lightyears means you multiply 3 others numbers to get the 200 Cubic LY, something like 5x4x10. That's how cubic measurements work. If something says its 200 cubic *whatever*, that doesn't mean its 200x200x200*whatever*, it means AxBxC=200*whatever*.

which equals 8,000,000 (8 million). So in your estimate, which takes the entire galaxy, Imperial and non Imperial, and overstates it sizes due to a basic geometrical failure on your part, could only contain 6250 sectors. 10's of thousands my ass.

Or it's a basic failing of mathematics on your part.

Just to back myself up, Check the wikipedia numbers on the Milky Way's volume listed by cubic light years. It looks identical to that number I just calculated here a couple lines up doesn't it? Using that number of 7.85 trillion cubic lightyears divided by 200 cubic light years per sector, we get 39,250,000,000 (just over 39 billion) possible sectors.

Let's assume only 1 in Ten Million sectors has a sector battlefleet, 1 ten thousandth of 1% of the galaxies possible sectors, that still gives us 785,000 Sector Battlefleets consisting of dozens upon dozens of vessels, or almost 800 sector battlefleets per Space Marine chapter. Tens of thousands of sector battlefleets all of a sudden doesn't sound so ridiculous anymore does it?

6. Doesn't change the fact that there literally would be absolutely no Mechanicus of Mars without the IF. At all. None.

Which is 100% completely irrelevant to anything being discussed and highly unlikely given that the Mechanicus had many other worlds at the time as well.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It wasn't just an isolated battle, though. There were repeated hit and runs where the Strike Cruiser survived Navy fire and then the Space Wolves fleet turned up and destroyed the rest of the Navy fleet. It's from
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp.39-42
Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Edition) apparently.

Well, I don't own either of those books so I can't comment, but that was before they codified 40k starship fluff much and the Sisters vs Space Wolves fluff now is rather different, and IIRC is of a single conflict that seems to have been retconned since then. That was back when IG still had Assault Cannons, Leman Russ tanks had better armored than Land Raiders, Dark Eldar and Tau didn't exist, Squats were playable, and Vortex weapons were common HQ wargear

The attempt to reduce Astartes anti-naval capacity has kind of failed.

How so?

The Astartes generally dominate on in space as well as on ground against normal Humans.

Again, how so? They're average capital ship is smaller with fewer guns. Battle Barges are rare vessels that aren't constantly committed to battle all the time and not all SM chapters have them or usually only 1. Strike Cruisers are the typical SM capital ship and are much smaller than IN cruisers in every way.

The difference is in numbers, but that's another game completely.

Except again, according to BFG, only Battle Barges are large enough to engage IN ships on something like an even footing and they're rare enough that not even every chapter has one.

Regardless, the Astartes have 'bigger guns' than the Imperial Guard, if not the Imperial Navy.

which, while true in an absolute sense, isn't quite accurate.


EDIT: I totally forgot this entire time about the IG's ability to field intermediate range ballistic missiles fitted with either plasma, nuclear or vortex missiles...

So there's also the Deathstrike to consider.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
That doesn't mean that this point has been retconned, and this piece of background had nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle.

I thought that was in regards to the conflict started with the ecclesiarchy was it not?

On equal terms the Astartes still seem to perform remarkably in space actions.

On equal terms yes, but fighting IN ships isn't equal terms. The IN ships are bigger and able to take more damage generally, much better designed for ship to ship combat, and for surface bombardment have access to bigger guns than even the Astartes. Lances are a primary naval weapon for most fleets to engage enemy ships and bombard planets, SM's only have access to these on small escort vessels whose availability for SM requisition in their fleets is often tightly controlled by the Inquisition. The IN has massive nova cannons, that can one-shot a Strike cruiser or annihilate entire armies on planets in one shot, Astartes have no such weapons. They have bombardment cannons which are sorta upgunned naval macrocannon and do more damage than normal cannons, but they still don't match Lances or Nova Cannons for power.

Strike Cruisers also have more automated systems to allow for their smaller crew.

Right, so they're more efficient in terms of crew requirements, but that usually make a whole lot of difference in a tactical engagement.

You still yet to tell me why the Imperial Navy will be so keen to side against the Emperors Angels' of Death.

Because the Astartes are essentially autonomous, independent organizations that do what they want and are beholden to nobody and are connected to the Imperium by little more than oaths of loyalty for the most part, they live and operate apart from the Imperium. The IG and IN are both subsections of the same organization which is an integral part of the Imperial Administration with direct representation amongst the High Lords of Terra. The Astartes often seen by the IN as a threat almost as often as xenos and heretics because of this, while the IG are direct comrades in arms under the same strategic command.

Seaward wrote:It's also worth noting that, in most of the fluff I've read, Space Marines (and their variants) tend not to play by Imperial Navy-style rules, anyway. Broadside weight matters little when you've got squads of eight-foot, power armored madmen slaughtering their way to your bridge.

It's hard to get those guys on there when they can be intercepted by numerous point defense systems (which most authors seem to forget exist), fighter craft, along with kilometer long frigate escorts, while the Strike Cruiser is taking fire from beyond its weapons range and the IN ships are firing their own torpedoes (filled not with marines but naval warheads the size of Macharius tanks)

I would think that boarding actions could level the playing field, and Strike Cruisers are supposed to be fast and maneuverable, right? I would imagine that they can dodge a fair amount of shots (as I assume most ships can, considering the distances in space).

they're a bit faster than IN vessels but not amazingly so, the bigger issue is that they require less in the way of logistics and red tape to move from place to place and what makes them more mobile in strategic terms.

The Astartes are still legendary figures among the vast majority of the Imperium. Assuming they aren't clearly traitors, it would likely take a fair amount of persuasion to convince other loyalists to attack them.

Engaging the Imperial guard that they're sharing a command with would probably do it as the overall commander probably doesn't want one portion of his force destroyed while the other sits by, and the retribution from the Munitorum and the Lord Commander Militant against a Navy officer who sat buy while IG troops were destroyed would probably be just as lethal as the Astartes. The IN is also actively wary of the Astartes because they have been known to attack other Imperial organizations if they feel they need to (in the Chapter's own subjective opinion of course) or if they are offended in some way, and are also one of the very few things that represents some sort of threat to the IN's power.

I'm unsure how many among the Imperial Navy know of that aspect of the Astartes-Navy relationship. Would it be common knowledge to all Captains?

the greater details? probably not, but they'd likely have a fair idea, if nothing else from their databanks of recognized Imperial starships.