Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay at first I had a good read a view days ago: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly

Then I had a slightly confusing read today when I searched for the article above again and Googles Top result was this: http://philosopherlikes.tumblr.com/post/10144672827/powered-by-hate-warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most

Well I know the author of the second articel is wrong what considers the Dawn of War games. But the claims he does before that the Space Marines look down to the IG as cowards. I have not read the novels just some codices and have not followed the 40k fluff to sharply for the past 3 years. So my question is: "What is the apperent status quo between Adeptus Astartes and IG?"

The author is not just wrong, He's blind. And surely no philosopher...

The Astartes have to look down on Guard when they stand in front of each other.
And thats the "common" part of looking down. Everything else depends on the marine and guards(wo)men in question.

Symbio Joe wrote: So my question is: "What is the apperent status quo between Adeptus Astartes and IG?"

Depends entirely on the chapter in question.

The Black Templars in Helsreach, for example, are depicted as disdainful of all Guard units save the one Imperial Navy squadron that had worked with the Templars on a previous crusade, and been granted the honor of painting Templar crosses on their Lightnings and Thunderbolts.

In the same novel, the Salamanders interface quite well with the Imperial Guard.

The Raven Guard are widely depicted as a chapter that will move in to help IG units when they can.

The Flesh Tearers are loathed by a lot of IG regiments they've fought alongside.

Just depends on the chapter.

Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Salamanders, and Ultramarines are generally depicted as honoring Guard and treating them as equals by the fact that they sacrifice their blood for the Imperium just like Marines do.

In many ways, some marines admire the Guard because they are not Space Marines, they're merely human, yet they're expected to fight the very same enemies the Space Marines fight.

Others... not so much. Flesh Tearers for example likely see Guard as getting in the way, as they willingly rip through a Guard position to get to Orks. Still others, such as Avitus from DoW2, view guard as cowards.

Melissia wrote:
Others... not so much. Flesh Tearers for example likely see Guard as getting in the way, as they willingly rip through a Guard position to get to Orks. Still others, such as Avitus from DoW2, view guard as cowards.

That's Red Thirst/Black Rage's doing, though. Current fluff has Seth keeping the Flesh Tearers away from other Imperial units on the battlefield specifically to avoid that sort of unpleasantness.

Doesn't stop most people from thinking the Flesh Tearers need to be put down, though.

Symbio Joe wrote:Okay at first I had a good read a view days ago: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly

Then I had a slightly confusing read today when I searched for the article above again and Googles Top result was this: http://philosopherlikes.tumblr.com/post/10144672827/powered-by-hate-warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most

Well I know the author of the second articel is wrong what considers the Dawn of War games. But the claims he does before that the Space Marines look down to the IG as cowards. I have not read the novels just some codices and have not followed the 40k fluff to sharply for the past 3 years. So my question is: "What is the apperent status quo between Adeptus Astartes and IG?"

First article is all right, it rocked hard.
Second one is written by someone who knows about 40k like me knowing about the meaning of life.

Guard main power is it's numbers and ARMOR. And not all Guardsman are cannon fodder and cowards, especially not Cadians.

It depends on the chapter. Some chapters like the Black Templars only recognize/respect IG once they've proven themselves while fighting alongside said chapter in combat

The female lieutenant is an extremely rare case of characterizing the IG - a commander with morals.

Stop! Hold the presses! Characterizing the Imperial Guard? An Imperial Guard Commander with morals? Those are such rare and impossible ideas! I bet the Black Library hasn't forced out dozens of books with Imperial Guard main characters who care for their troops!

Seriously, it's hard to take that "Philosopher's" opinion on 40K seriously when he says stupid crap like this.

The feud between the Marines Malevolent and the Salamanders kinda sums up the variety of Astartes relationship with regular people.

Seaward wrote:Depends entirely on the chapter in question. [...] In the same novel, the Salamanders interface quite well with the Imperial Guard.

And of course it also depends on the individual author of the particular novel.

There is "Know Thine Enemy" where the Salamanders do not treat the Imperial Guard platoon they are reinforcing very kindly at all, one of the Marines almost killing their commanding officer for daring to suggest that the Marines take a rest whilst his men stand watch and, in general, voicing quite a few nasty remarks about what they think about the martial prowess of the Guardsmen.

As with all licensed products, every author will quite simply have his personal interpretation on the details of the 40k 'verse. So, how to deal with such conflicts? Simple, get your own personal interpretation. Read up on the Chapter history and culture in the official studio material (Codices etc) and then determine what kind of behavior would suit them best.

Just finished reading and, wow, the second one made me angry. It is definitely written by some one who just googled 40k and read a line from the wiki page.

"Their motto is something similar to “hold the line and die standing”, the commissars of the imperial guard frequently execute their own soldiers to keep order, and the entire IG is characterized by treachery, incompetence, and cowardice. Their strength is in their numbers, and that’s about it. You know those throwaway soldiers you see in every movie, like the stormtroopers from the original Star Wars or ‘terrorists’ in Diehard? Yeah, that’s the Imperial Guard. They are used as fodder in the plot line of all Dawn of War games. It’s repeatedly made clear in the series that many Space Marines have a severe distaste for the cowardly guardsmen, and look down upon them for their weakness and frailty."

First of all, "hold the line and die standing" is a reference to the bravery of the Guard to stand against the enemies of the Imperium and never faulter.
Second, I wounder if the author was aware that the Guard played a MASSIVE role in DoW:WA, escorting the Marines at one point!
Third, a great many commissars are like that, but not all. Men like Cain and Gaunt have found inspiring the troops a better method, and Cain is even teaching this lesson to his students. Lord Castallen Ursarkar Creed is noted as disliking sacrificing troops if alternatives can be found.
Fourth, universal disdain for the Guard from Marines is a lie. The Salamanders and Space Wolves are noted for being very friendly to Guard units.

Listen not to the lies of this heretic, men of the Imperial Guard, he has turned from the God-Emperor and is jealous of the bravery and determination that the servants of Him-on-Terra posses.

Ciaphas Cain is very explicit that he considers every guardsman besides himself, if not exactly cannon fodder, then a "screening unit", as us tabletop players would say.

In "The Fall of Damnos", the Ultramarines' Second Company don't think too much of the guardsmen at the beginning of the book, and the all of the Marines in the "Fear the Alien" stories are pretty dismissive of guardsmen.

I face-palmed at the second post.

In many ways, some marines admire the Guard because they are not Space Marines, they're merely human, yet they're expected to fight the very same enemies the Space Marines fight.

Very much this. In some 40K publication or another, there is a Space Marine squad leader of some Chapter or another, I forget the source I read this so I forget the Chapter, who expresses his surprise at the tenacity and bravery of the Guard unit he and his squad have encountered. The Guard commander replies something along the lines of being flattered, but what the Guard does is of no comparison to what the Space Marines do.

The SM replies, "You are but mortal men, and faced the xeno in battle, and emerged victorious. I am a Space Marine... I do not know how to fail."

In directly-published GW has the Space Marines looking down on the IG much more then in BL novels which tend to develop characters/relationships and thus require more then the "lol fodder" standard.

Overall I think most Space Marines don't care about the Guard or what happens to them, but if they fight side by side well in a major battle this changes. Unless of course you're Flesh Eaters in which case you just have a tasty snack.

Melissia wrote:Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Salamanders, and Ultramarines are generally depicted as honoring Guard and treating them as equals by the fact that they sacrifice their blood for the Imperium just like Marines do.

In many ways, some marines admire the Guard because they are not Space Marines, they're merely human, yet they're expected to fight the very same enemies the Space Marines fight.

Others... not so much. Flesh Tearers for example likely see Guard as getting in the way, as they willingly rip through a Guard position to get to Orks. Still others, such as Avitus from DoW2, view guard as cowards.

Also, there are some chapters with mixed opinions.

In Rynn's world, it was made fairly clear that one of the marines (forget name) hated ALL non-super humans, while others went so far as to play to the crowd.

Harriticus wrote:In directly-published GW has the Space Marines looking down on the IG much more then in BL novels which tend to develop characters/relationships and thus require more then the "lol fodder" standard.

Indeed. It is perhaps of note that the aforementioned "Know Thine Enemy" was written by Gav Thorpe - former lead background designer at GW.

I think a lot of novels are "warping" the perception of the major factions quite a bit, be it because the author attempts to make the protagonists more likable (in the case of Marines by making them more "human-like" in their psyche) or because he just doesn't know any better. Ironically, from an interview with Goto we know that his controversial portrayal of the Marines is indeed intentional, whereas the Cain books just hint at a lot of misinformation on part of the author.

wrong threaddddd

I'd say that Marines don't care much about guardsmen. I mean they probably respect them for fighting the enemies of the imperium but they probably don't give them much thought unless they are fighting side by side.

There is no perfect answer. Some Chapters, or individuals, look down upon mortal Guardsmen as weaker, frail or cowardly.

Others are in awe of the bravery and skill of the Guard, in facing up to xenos, heretic and even daemonic threats despite their fear.

And equally, the warriors and pilots of the Mechanicus armies look down upon many who aren't augmented servants of the Omnissiah, Guard regiments may describe one another as inferior... and everyone rags on the PDFs.

Grimdark, baby.

Mira was 'meh' to me, just another two-dimensional badly acted character. And her orders were always cliché and uninspired

And I think saying that she wasn't overly-sexualised is a tad generous: Space Marines don't like women Though I was happy that she didn't suffer from boob armour.

If you want to impress me, give us a female character with a shaved head...

Henners91 wrote:Mira was 'meh' to me, just another two-dimensional badly acted character. And her orders were always cliché and uninspired

And I think saying that she wasn't overly-sexualised is a tad generous: Space Marines don't like women Though I was happy that she didn't suffer from boob armour.

If you want to impress me, give us a female character with a shaved head...

Mira is probably the best thing in Space Marine ( beside Thunder Hammer ), the fact that she is a good commander ( saved the men under her command ), that she is not coward ( she go to the trenches several times to fight off aliens and heretics ), that she is bad-ass ( going into a battle with Chaos Marines + Orks with only Lasgun... ) and in the end she tell Titus to tell the Inquisition to "feth off" is just pure epic to me ( even her face toward the Inquisition was already saying "feth off" to them.

Probably the best character in the whole game.

Here is a real review of her: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly

That article was above, it's what made me post this

The voice actor was just so bland. The character was cool enough in concept but I felt the game, along with most of the chars (Titus possibly excluded, besides his underwhelmingly quiet fury roars) lacked character. Thus Mira saying 'hold your positions' in some monotone wasn't really awe-inspiring to me. The atmosphere never pulled me in.

Have you ever served, with female troops or officers? People but in this case especially females have a lot of facets to them. Mira has seen her world devastated by an Ork invasion, her chain of command removed and whats left of the shattered guard units looking to her for strength of will and direction. She does pretty well considering the situation and I think she is portrayed in context authentically.

As the the comments about how Space Marines don't like women, that is somewhat absurd as there are a few examples we can cite i.e. Ragnar Blackmane. I think a lot of this has its roots in dehumanizing assumptions about the Astartes and their oft monastic / militarist lifestyles. That and considering where this IP came from we can apply the old axiom "No sex please, we are British."

As has been stated above a lot of relationships are point of view based and on experience. If the IG have failed near you one tends to treat the next IG unit you meet with as suspect. If the IG had their act together and ran a well run defense or attack then there you are. Space Marines as elite units of the IoM are of course going to have that air about them, Emperor's Angels of Death and all that, but many are still courteous and commraderous where others behave like snobs and bullies.

It's always "cowardice" this and "martial prowess" that until the big guns have their say.

I think the overall space marne view is that the imperial guard is only human. They frown upon human cowardice, but know that, unlike marines, they still have fear.

Molten Butter wrote:

The female lieutenant is an extremely rare case of characterizing the IG - a commander with morals.

Stop! Hold the presses! Characterizing the Imperial Guard? An Imperial Guard Commander with morals? Those are such rare and impossible ideas! I bet the Black Library hasn't forced out dozens of books with Imperial Guard main characters who care for their troops!

Seriously, it's hard to take that "Philosopher's" opinion on 40K seriously when he says stupid crap like this.

Lynata wrote:

Harriticus wrote:In directly-published GW has the Space Marines looking down on the IG much more then in BL novels which tend to develop characters/relationships and thus require more then the "lol fodder" standard.

Indeed. It is perhaps of note that the aforementioned "Know Thine Enemy" was written by Gav Thorpe - former lead background designer at GW.

I think a lot of novels are "warping" the perception of the major factions quite a bit, be it because the author attempts to make the protagonists more likable (in the case of Marines by making them more "human-like" in their psyche) or because he just doesn't know any better. Ironically, from an interview with Goto we know that his controversial portrayal of the Marines is indeed intentional, whereas the Cain books just hint at a lot of misinformation on part of the author.

Exactly. We, being human, would logically have trouble writing from the perspective of individuals who's psyche is supposed to be far removed from our own. (see: Post-human God )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:It's always "cowardice" this and "martial prowess" that until the big guns have their say.

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zakiriel wrote: Mira has seen her world devastated by an Ork invasion

Not HER world. She was a Cadian.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Navy and Guard are different organisations.

Plus boarding torpedos are weapons./