Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

thenoobbomb wrote:

Molten Butter wrote:

The female lieutenant is an extremely rare case of characterizing the IG - a commander with morals.

Stop! Hold the presses! Characterizing the Imperial Guard? An Imperial Guard Commander with morals? Those are such rare and impossible ideas! I bet the Black Library hasn't forced out dozens of books with Imperial Guard main characters who care for their troops!

Seriously, it's hard to take that "Philosopher's" opinion on 40K seriously when he says stupid crap like this.

What did I say wrong?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Not HER world. She was a Cadian.

I hear Cadia is nice this time of year.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Navy and Guard are different organisations.

Plus boarding torpedos are weapons./

The guard generally doesn't go anywhere without the Navy to get them there however, and the SM's ships are extremely limited in number, usually limited to a single ship on most missions and often isn't in much position to provide direct fire support.

Boarding torpedoes have to get close and avoid interception

Molten Butter wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:

Molten Butter wrote:

The female lieutenant is an extremely rare case of characterizing the IG - a commander with morals.

Stop! Hold the presses! Characterizing the Imperial Guard? An Imperial Guard Commander with morals? Those are such rare and impossible ideas! I bet the Black Library hasn't forced out dozens of books with Imperial Guard main characters who care for their troops!

Seriously, it's hard to take that "Philosopher's" opinion on 40K seriously when he says stupid crap like this.

]http://www.darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/images/stories/HeresyStamp.png

What did I say wrong?

Nothing.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Navy and Guard are different organisations.

Plus boarding torpedos are weapons./

The guard generally doesn't go anywhere without the Navy to get them there however, and the SM's ships are extremely limited in number, usually limited to a single ship on most missions and often isn't in much position to provide direct fire support.

Boarding torpedoes have to get close and avoid interception

Yes, but the Navy AREN'T the Guard.

And a company needs 1 strike cruiser, which is far less than what an equivalent amount of Guardsmen would need.

And it doesn't matter with the torpedoes. Once they land, the ship belongs to the astartes. Not only can it be counted out of the fight, it may very well have been captured.

And what do you mean "isn't in position for fire support"?

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but Space Marines have bigger Guns, I.E. Battle Barges, while the Imperial Guard has to rely on the navy=soft.

The Navy has bigger guns than the Marines could hope to have, the SM's for the most part lack Lance weapons and have no Nova cannons And there are far more Imperial Navy ships than SM starships.

Navy and Guard are different organisations.

Plus boarding torpedos are weapons./

The guard generally doesn't go anywhere without the Navy to get them there however, and the SM's ships are extremely limited in number, usually limited to a single ship on most missions and often isn't in much position to provide direct fire support.

Boarding torpedoes have to get close and avoid interception

The SM Chapter Master's "Orbital Bombardment" ability would seem to disagree with what you say. As would every fluff depiction of Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers as being exceptionally well-armed.

They might have orbital bombardment, but SM fleets are far inferior tu Imperial Navy ones. They are fast and hard hitting but weak except the Battle Barge.

Have you ever played Gothic ? I assure you that SMs are just a secondary force and not the mainstay.

KOS wrote:They might have orbital bombardment, but SM fleets are far inferior tu Imperial Navy ones. They are fast and hard hitting but weak except the Battle Barge.

Have you ever played Gothic ? I assure you that SMs are just a secondary force and not the mainstay.

Is Gothic a game about providing orbital fire support to planetary assaulters? If not, I'm not sure how it's relevant. Everything in the Space Marines' arsenal is tailored to help them do their jobs; to suggest they don't have the assets to conduct orbital bombardment prior to landing is a little wonky.

Conducting fleet battles isn't their job - though Helbrecht might say otherwise - and while the Imperial Navy certainly dwarfs any given Astartes' fleet, that's a weird comparison to make.

As already said, the IG is viewed as either an cowardice army or as an loyal fighting force of the Emperor. It really depends about the chapter in question. I play Ultramarines and what I've heard, they respect the IG and gladly help them if need arises. And as for the IG navy vs SM conversation, SM battlebarges are said to be equipped with more powerful weaponry than most of the IG battleships, but are dwarfed by the sheer amount of battleships available to the IG. The space marines use their ships to make surgical strikes, not to go in an all-out war.

Seaward wrote:

KOS wrote:They might have orbital bombardment, but SM fleets are far inferior tu Imperial Navy ones. They are fast and hard hitting but weak except the Battle Barge.

Have you ever played Gothic ? I assure you that SMs are just a secondary force and not the mainstay.

Is Gothic a game about providing orbital fire support to planetary assaulters? If not, I'm not sure how it's relevant. Everything in the Space Marines' arsenal is tailored to help them do their jobs; to suggest they don't have the assets to conduct orbital bombardment prior to landing is a little wonky.

Conducting fleet battles isn't their job - though Helbrecht might say otherwise - and while the Imperial Navy certainly dwarfs any given Astartes' fleet, that's a weird comparison to make.

From the Space Marine codex, page 45.

"Space Marine Battle Barges are primarily configured for close support of planetary landings. A considerable amount of hull space is given over to launch bays for intra system craft, boarding torpedoes, and drop pods. Even so, most battle barges can bring an obscene amount of fire-power to bear. Almost as much as the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy"

OBSCENE amount of fire-power?

I would say you lost that one mate.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Yes, but the Navy AREN'T the Guard.

Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

And a company needs 1 strike cruiser, which is far less than what an equivalent amount of Guardsmen would need.

Which would likely mean a greater number of IN ships with more guns to provide orbital fire support yes? That was kinda my point. A Strike Cruiser generally won't win a battle with an IN cruiser. In BFG terms, an Imperial Navy cruiser has 33% more hit points than an Astartes Strike cruiser and more guns.

And it doesn't matter with the torpedoes. Once they land, the ship belongs to the astartes. Not only can it be counted out of the fight, it may very well have been captured.

Not really, first they have to land, which they often don't, they can be intercepted by fighters and point defense systems, they typically aren't utilized until such defenses have been neutralized, which is much harder to do for an SM ship against an IN ship than vice versa. Then the ships still have all sorts of means of defending themselves, they can vent sections to space and blow the marines out of the ship, plus their own complements of marines, which, while not Space Marines, aren't useless. Boarding actions by SM's are by no means assured that the ship is immediately out of the fight. An IN cruiser is 5Km long, it's huge, it takes a ton of time for SM's to traverse through that against thosuands of crewmembers and armed marines that it could be very long minutes or even hours before they reach anything of importance, if they can at all. Hence why boarding torpedoes in BFG aren't an auto-win, they just inflict a certain level of damage.

Also, given the marines typically limited numbers, do they have enough for space battles and boaring large IN sized vessels *and* planetary ops?

And what do you mean "isn't in position for fire support"?

Unless it's in relatively low orbit (and thus vulnerable to anti-orbital defenses) in an orbit that places it relatively above the target, then it can't provide support. Given that we're usually talking a single Strike Cruiser, unless it's the only thing in orbit and there's no defenses, it's likely got other things to do.

Seaward wrote:The SM Chapter Master's "Orbital Bombardment" ability would seem to disagree with what you say.

As would every fluff depiction of Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers as being exceptionally well-armed.

They're very well armed for close orbit bombardment, but then aren't always in a postion to provide that either. In game 40k isn't a super accurate representation of lots of stuff, a Chapter Master isn't always going to have access to orbital fire support on every battlefield just because he's there for instance.

Regardless, while yes, SM ships are well armed for close orbit bombardment, an SM fleet however is going to find itself in a poor position against an IN fleet in a ship to ship shooting war, and lacks the BFG equivalent of Ordnance weapons which are Nova Cannons. That's by design since the Horus Heresy so SM's would have a difficult time challenging the IN if they wanted to go rogue. An IN fleet will be able to wreak greater destruction on a planet or opposing fleet than an Astartes fleet will.

While yes, for some reason orbital bombardment sometimes has a Lance profile (IIRC they may have only been the old Daemonhunters book), SM ships are not armed with Lances aside from a rare handful of small escorts that the IN and the INQ try to limit them access to.

Is Gothic a game about providing orbital fire support to planetary assaulters?

Some scenarios do cover that yes.

to suggest they don't have the assets to conduct orbital bombardment prior to landing is a little wonky.

Nobody is saying they don't. Only that orbital support isn't always an option, especially past the opening phases, and that the IN has bigger ships and even bigger guns.

Even so, most battle barges can bring an obscene amount of fire-power to bear. Almost as much as the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy"

And this illustrates perfectly what I'm driving at. it's *almost* as much firepower as a Grand Cruiser, which means, not quite as much, and Grand Cruisers aren't the largest ships in the Imperial Navy.

Vaktathi wrote:Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

Yes there is. Saying that the Imperial Guard have bigger guns than the Astartes was the original comment. Someone else posted about Astartes starships to refute that point. Bringing in a third organisation (the Imperial Navy) completely changes the topic. The Astartes have bigger guns than the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Navy is irrelevant.

Also, Battlefleet Gothic rules don't necessarily dictate the background. Astartes had to get involved in the Badab War for a reason.

Vaktathi wrote:They're very well armed for close orbit bombardment, but then aren't always in a postion to provide that either. In game 40k isn't a super accurate representation of lots of stuff,

But Battlefleet Gothic is?

Regardless, while yes, SM ships are well armed for close orbit bombardment, an SM fleet however is going to find itself in a poor position against an IN fleet in a ship to ship shooting war, and lacks the BFG equivalent of Ordnance weapons which are Nova Cannons. That's by design since the Horus Heresy so SM's would have a difficult time challenging the IN if they wanted to go rogue. An IN fleet will be able to wreak greater destruction on a planet or opposing fleet than an Astartes fleet will.

Every fluff example we have of SM ships completely contradicts this point, just for the record.

Seaward wrote:

But Battlefleet Gothic is?

When we're talking about starships, probably better than tabletop 40k which is close range tactical ground combat fought within ranges of a few hundred meters. Orbital bombardments from starships would be levelling the entire battlefield with single salvos, not merely dropping tank shell blasts for instance.

Regardless, while yes, SM ships are well armed for close orbit bombardment, an SM fleet however is going to find itself in a poor position against an IN fleet in a ship to ship shooting war, and lacks the BFG equivalent of Ordnance weapons which are Nova Cannons. That's by design since the Horus Heresy so SM's would have a difficult time challenging the IN if they wanted to go rogue. An IN fleet will be able to wreak greater destruction on a planet or opposing fleet than an Astartes fleet will.

Every fluff example we have of SM ships completely contradicts this point, just for the record.

Not really, BFG fluff, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch RPG fluff, etc all supports this, as does the descriptions of the Codex Astartes breaking down the Astartes from large integrated fighting forces and the split of the IN from the Imperial Army. Most 40k tabletop fluff doesn't go into stuff like this in huge detail, especially IN vs SM stuff, because it's not part of the main game. The stuff that does go into it really makes it clear that the IN has the upper hand in space warfare. Keep in mind that heresy era stuff and CSM vessels don't fall under these same restrictions.

EDIT: There's a reason why Space Marines are somewhat of a "niche-race" in BFG, a standard BFG sized fleet can be large enough to be many chapters entire fleet, and being geared more towards delivering and supporting shock troops to surface targets, tends to have issues with purely space battles.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

Yes there is. Saying that the Imperial Guard have bigger guns than the Astartes was the original comment. Someone else posted about Astartes starships to refute that point. Bringing in a third organisation (the Imperial Navy) completely changes the topic. The Astartes have bigger guns than the Imperial Guard. The Imperial Navy is irrelevant.

No, because again, without the Navy, the Guard doesn't fight. If the guard is present, the Navy is present and working in conjunction with them, unless it's a world where they are simply a garrison of some sort.

Also, Battlefleet Gothic rules don't necessarily dictate the background. Astartes had to get involved in the Badab War for a reason.

Because the Astartes involved themselves in it, very few IN/IG assets were devoted to that conflict in general. it's basically a story designed from the ground up to be a 41st millenium Horus Heresy style SM vs SM war.

Vaktathi wrote:No, because again, without the Navy, the Guard doesn't fight. If the guard is present, the Navy is present and working in conjunction with them, unless it's a world where they are simply a garrison of some sort.

Maybe the Guard forces get in a separate dispute with the Astartes that the Navy don't want to involved in unnecessarily. Maybe it's a case of mistake identity, or outright treachery, and the Navy doesn't actually know who is in the right. Possibly the Navy ships are preoccupied. Who knows. Point was, it was Guard against Astartes, not Guard and Navy against Astartes.

Because the Astartes involved themselves in it, very few IN/IG assets were devoted to that conflict in general. it's basically a story designed from the ground up to be a 41st millenium Horus Heresy style SM vs SM war.

Okay, fair enough. Even still, the Space Wolves defeated the vastly superior forces they were fighting agianst when Cardinal Bucharis ordered his forces to take Fenris.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:]
Maybe the Guard forces get in a separate dispute with the Astartes that the Navy don't want to involved in unnecessarily. Maybe it's a case of mistake identity, or outright treachery, and the Navy doesn't actually know who is in the right. Possibly the Navy ships are preoccupied. Who knows. Point was, it was Guard against Astartes, not Guard and Navy against Astartes.

Possible, but again, if the IN is there,there's likely an overall commander with authority over both, and if that commanders forces get embroiled with the SM's, then he's not just going to sit there while one part of his forces fights something else.

Again, if the Guard goes somewhere, the IN is there with it, and they're not going to be acting disctinctly.

Okay, fair enough. Even still, the Space Wolves defeated the vastly superior forces they were fighting agianst when Cardinal Bucharis ordered his forces to take Fenris.

Ecclesiarchal forces, not Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy forces IIRC. Also, with SW's, there's always a magical a good bit of plot armor, they really can't ever lose at anything. They're intricate spymasters, space berzerkers, masters of mobile warfare, space pranksters, monsters of close combat, mighty fortress builders, dark executioners, goofy drunkards, astounding psykers, psysker haters, all in one at the same time.

Vaktathi wrote:Ecclesiarchal forces, not Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy forces IIRC.

He's got a point there - by that time Bucharis had control over about a fifth of the Imperium, including the entire Segmentum Pacificus Navy, which he deployed against Fenris. Which the Space Wolves's returning fleet of battle barges basically wiped the floor with, after millions upon millions of Guardsmen died in the futile attempt to overcome a couple hundred Marines dug in on the ground.

Typical SW plot armour, as you say. Not a piece of fluff I'd be proud to cite, but it exists.

Of course this silly story doesn't change all the other instances where it says that Space Marines are quite simply not intended to have that kind of "air"power ever since the Horus Heresy.

[edit] Someone actually uploaded that premiere example of mary-sueism onto Lexicanum. You can read the entire abomination here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_of_Unbelief#First_Mistake

Is that what it used to be? Silly indeed, by any realistic standard even for the Astartes they'd be overwhelmed in hours. However in the current book it just talks about several orders of sisters being involved in a 3 week war.

Oh yeah, that is another incident - and much more believable.

Bucharis was shortly after Vandire, so some time ago. The Ecclesiarchy's attack on Fenris happened rather recently (I think) and was retaliation for the Wolves gunning down a couple priests who had landed on their world.

Vaktathi wrote:Possible, but again, if the IN is there,there's likely an overall commander with authority over both, and if that commanders forces get embroiled with the SM's, then he's not just going to sit there while one part of his forces fights something else.

And if it's an Imperial Navy overall commander would he really choose to go up against the Astartes when the reason for conflict could be anything? It could be a small portion of the Guard involved, too.

Again, if the Guard goes somewhere, the IN is there with it, and they're not going to be acting disctinctly.

True about the Navy being required, but they don't necessarily act together all the time, and the Navy will not necessarily choose the Guard over the Emperor's legendary Angels of Death.

Ecclesiarchal forces, not Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy forces IIRC. Also, with SW's, there's always a magical a good bit of plot armor, they really can't ever lose at anything. They're intricate spymasters, space berzerkers, masters of mobile warfare, space pranksters, monsters of close combat, mighty fortress builders, dark executioners, goofy drunkards, astounding psykers, psysker haters, all in one at the same time.

Actually, they were Naval forces. Well yeah, that piece of background was a bit ridiculous, but it is still there, and I can't think of any other Astartes versus Imperial Navy background examples.

Vaktathi wrote:

Yes, but the Navy AREN'T the Guard.

Right, but one doesn't go anywhere without the other. If we're bringing in Space Marine starships, there's no reason not to bring in the IN.

That does not change the fact that the Imperial Guard is, unlike SM, and organisation incapable of bringing the largest ships into the fight.

If we're giving support from outside organisations, why don't we go ahead and let the Mechanicus, Arbites, Custodes, Astropathica, Navis Nobilite, Officio Assassinorum etc. join the SM? after all, they usually support each other.

The flaw in your logic is so overwhelmingly enormous that it boggles the mind.

And the Imperial navy does indeed hold the galaxy together, almost always without the guard.

And the Guard fight on home soil rediculously often. Go speak to a Cadian.

AND the ships that transport the Guard, the troopships (which still belong solely to the navy), are NOT made for war. They are the terrestrial equivalent of a ferry. Whereas The Marines ships ARE made for war, and have huge amounts of redundancy and can survive horrific damages from ships many, many times their size.

I didn't even bother reading most of your post, so stunned I was by your opening statement. (I only got half way)

As an aside: quoting BF:G and then ignoring the part "Almost as much as the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy" is disingenuous. A Grand Cruiser isn't the biggest thing on the Imperial Navy's list of ships, and certainly Grand Cruisers are more common than Battle Barges, which are EXTREMELY rare.

Be a pedant about the separation of Guard and Navy all you want, they work together more often than they work with Astartes; as far as a crusade is concerned they're almost inseparable, merely fighting different aspects of the same war instead of being two wildly divergent organizations. A crusade's Lord General has command of the naval assets anyway.

Melissia wrote:As an aside: quoting BF:G and then ignoring the part "Almost as much as the grand cruisers of the Imperial Navy" is disingenuous. A Grand Cruiser isn't the biggest thing on the Imperial Navy's list of ships, and certainly Grand Cruisers are more common than Battle Barges, which are EXTREMELY rare.

Be a pedant about the separation of Guard and Navy all you want, they work together more often than they work with Astartes; as far as a crusade is concerned they're almost inseparable, merely fighting different aspects of the same war instead of being two wildly divergent organizations. A crusade's Lord General has command of the naval assets anyway.

Doesn't change the fact that they are not the same entity.

Go ahead, point me to a Regiment that owns a space craft. You can't? Aww.

They don't even own their in-atmosphere craft, as these are merely lent to Regiments for specific engagements. (Except for the Elysians)

Phantine.

we form a quickly diminishing shield so the astartes can rocket in and devastate the enemies advancing on us

im2randomghgh wrote:
That does not change the fact that the Imperial Guard is, unlike SM, and organisation incapable of bringing the largest ships into the fight.

If both the IN and IG are operating in the same area, there's a common commander with authority over both and officers with the authority to order support from starships. The IG officers can't order the starship to go to a particular destination or anything, but they can order bombardments under the shared command structure of the Munitorum.

If we're giving support from outside organisations, why don't we go ahead and let the Mechanicus, Arbites, Custodes, Astropathica, Navis Nobilite, Officio Assassinorum etc. join the SM? after all, they usually support each other.

Because, aside from the Navis Nobilite which the SM's also make use of, they're completely separate organizations. The IN and IG are both under the Munitorum.

The flaw in your logic is so overwhelmingly enormous that it boggles the mind.

No, you just don't understand the structure under which they operate, not my fault.

They're both under the shared command of the Munitorum, meaning their senior commands are identical. Hence if one gets drawn in, so does the other. If you fight the Arbites, the Mechanicus doesn't get involved. If you fight the Astartes, the Custodes don't get involved. If you engage PDF the Guard doesn't necessarily get involved nor does the Officio Assassinorum. If you're fighting the Guard, the Navy must by necessity be involved.

And the Imperial navy does indeed hold the galaxy together, almost always without the guard.

As long as you're referring to shipping lanes in space. Without the Imperial Guard the Imperium would disappear overnight with nothing but highly variable PDF forces and one Space Marine per world.

And the Guard fight on home soil rediculously often. Go speak to a Cadian.

Right...I never said the guard don't fight on "home soil". However the only time the IN isn't there for the IG in some capacity is isolated garrison forces.

And as long as we're talking about Cadia, we are talking about the same planet and sector with probably the largest Imperial Navy presence outside the Sol sytem?

AND the ships that transport the Guard, the troopships (which still belong solely to the navy), are NOT made for war. They are the terrestrial equivalent of a ferry.

And are escorted to combat zones by warships...

Whereas The Marines ships ARE made for war, and have huge amounts of redundancy and can survive horrific damages from ships many, many times their size.

Not really, for example Space Marine Strike cruiser will typically lose a direct engagement with an Imperial Navy Cruiser given the only available comparable stats which appear in Battlefleet Gothic.

I didn't even bother reading most of your post, so stunned I was by your opening statement. (I only got half way)

Which says way more about you and your stance than mine buddy. If you can't be bothered to read, understand, and respond to an argument, or are simply overawed by those I put forth, then it looks like my job is done.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Doesn't change the fact that they are not the same entity.

Go ahead, point me to a Regiment that owns a space craft. You can't? Aww.

They don't even own their in-atmosphere craft, as these are merely lent to Regiments for specific engagements. (Except for the Elysians)

They aren't directly the same entity, but they're both part of the Adeptus Munitorum meaning they share a common upper command structure. You'll never have IG without the Navy unless it's some isolated defense force, and if the IG and IN are operating together, then they'll have a common commander, so they're effectively operating as the same entity. The upper command, supply, commissariate, etc resources and channels. They're all "Adeptus Munitorum" organizations.

No different than the fact that most of a Space Marine Chapters personnel are not in fact Space Marines, but Chapter Serfs, the Chapter doesn't work without them.

im2randomghgh wrote:Doesn't change the fact that they are not the same entity.

Right, it just means it's irrelevant.

Vaktathi wrote:Not really, for example Space Marine Strike cruiser will typically lose a direct engagement with an Imperial Navy Cruiser given the only available comparable stats which appear in Battlefleet Gothic.

However, the only available background that I know of tells of a Strike Cruiser not only defeating, but defeating seemingly unscathed an Imperial Navy Cruiser.

This is another one of those fun situations where fluff and tabletop stats aren't even within miles of each other. Space Marine fleet vessels in fluff are more than capable of holding their own against almost anything the Imperial Navy could throw at them - and some, like the Eternal Crusader, are in a class all their own. Never having played BG, I can't comment on their stats there, but we all know that game balance trumps fluff when designing something that's fun to play.

Navy ships are stronger, because most SM vessels are design for planetary assault and orbital support. A strike cruiser is a light cruiser by the standards of the Imperial Navy. Battle Barge is about as good as a Battleship, but they are rare.
Honestly though, I dont think "Who has the biggest ship" determines SMs attitude towards IG.