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Seaward wrote:This is another one of those fun situations where fluff and tabletop stats aren't even within miles of each other. Space Marine fleet vessels in fluff are more than capable of holding their own against almost anything the Imperial Navy could throw at them

The actual GW studio fluff says otherwise.

- and some, like the Eternal Crusader, are in a class all their own.

The Eternal Crusader isn't a typical Space Marine vessel, and the IN has its own one-off mega-ships as well.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Not really, for example Space Marine Strike cruiser will typically lose a direct engagement with an Imperial Navy Cruiser given the only available comparable stats which appear in Battlefleet Gothic.

However, the only available background that I know of tells of a Strike Cruiser not only defeating, but defeating seemingly unscathed an Imperial Navy Cruiser.

A single, isolated battle doesn't say a whole lot about what would typically happen. Also, if this is from a BL book (not familiar with what battle you're talking about) they aren't exactly required to know what they're talking about, if you've read the Space Wolves omnibus they talk about the IG fielding large numbers of Predators and Rhinos for instance. GW studio fluff very clearly states that the SM ships are not generally capable of going toe to toe with IN ships, Battlebarges can but are incredibly rare and outnumbered by similarly capable IN ships. The IN and Inquisition watch SM fleets and acquisitions very closely to ensure that they *don't* gain the capabilities to adequately challenge the Imperial Navy.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Doesn't change the fact that they are not the same entity.

Right, it just means it's irrelevant.

No.

IG rely on goodwill from the navy to even get to the batllefield, Astartes don't. SM are as likely to have naval support as Guard.

For every Navy ship you add to the IG, and an identical one to the space marines.

they are autonomous. Deal with it.

Saying that their ties to the Munitorum make them one thing is bull gak. SM have ties to the Ad Mech and the Emprah himself. Does that make every space marine an Emperor?

Hell no. There's a reason the Imperial Army no longer exists: That organisation became the Guard and Navy so that they would never be unified.

im2randomghgh wrote:
IG rely on goodwill from the navy to even get to the batllefield, Astartes don't.

They don't rely on goodwill, both are Munitorum organizations. An order comes from Segmentum Command and both organizations carry it out. They are departments of the Munitorum, not completely separate and autonomous organizations.

SM are as likely to have naval support as Guard.

For every Navy ship you add to the IG, and an identical one to the space marines.

And in that case, the IN will have the advantage because it's ships are bigger and most SM chapters only have a dozen starships, of which maybe 1/3 to 1/2 aren't Escorts, while a Sector Battlegroup (of which there are tens of thousands) will have 75-100 Capital Ships and many more escorts.

Saying that their ties to the Munitorum make them one thing is bull gak. SM have ties to the Ad Mech and the Emprah himself. Does that make every space marine an Emperor?

No, it just shows you don't have any idea of what you're talking about or how this whole thing works and probably won't get it or budge on anything no matter what I or anyone else says because you just don't want to actually debate this. Both the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard are organizations under the shared command of the Munitorum. That means they are different parts of the same whole with an identical high command.

To put it another way, look at it like the US military. Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force are all different organizations but share a common structure and organization and overall command (joint chiefs) with a unified system of laws and similar if not identical heirarchies. Officers from one branch can give orders in some respects to forces from another but cannot take direct command of anything as they feel like it, but they operate as one whole under the Department of Defense as lead by the Join Chiefs of Staff, which the 40k equivalent would be the Departmento Munitorum.

The Space Marines would be like the Secret Service (well, the Custodes would but it still fits) while the Inquisition would be the Justice Department and the Officio Assasionorum would be CIA operatives. These organizations have no interconnection with the Department of Defense except through the President of the United States (who we could equate to the Emperor or High Lords) and operate completely independently of each other except in exceptional circumstances as ordered by the President of the United States, whereas the various armed forces under the Department of Defense (as equated to the Departmento Munitorum) are all interconnected with linked command structures, supply systems and legal systems and whatnot and by their very nature operate with the others under an overall shared command at some level.

Hell no. There's a reason the Imperial Army no longer exists: That organisation became the Guard and Navy so that they would never be unified.

They aren't in the way they used to be, an Imperial Guard general cannot command a starship and a Navy captain cannot order a ground invasion. That doesn't mean they are completely distinct organizations the way the Space Marines and AdMech or Custodes are. There is no shared command between the AdMech and the Space Marines, no common legal structure or command heirarchy, with the IG and Navy there is.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
IG rely on goodwill from the navy to even get to the batllefield, Astartes don't.

They don't rely on goodwill, both are Munitorum organizations. An order comes from Segmentum Command and both organizations carry it out. They are departments of the Munitorum, not completely separate and autonomous organizations.

SM are as likely to have naval support as Guard.

For every Navy ship you add to the IG, and an identical one to the space marines.

And in that case, the IN will have the advantage because it's ships are bigger and most SM chapters only have a dozen starships, of which maybe 1/3 to 1/2 aren't Escorts, while a Sector Battlegroup (of which there are tens of thousands) will have 75-100 Capital Ships and many more escorts.

Saying that their ties to the Munitorum make them one thing is bull gak. SM have ties to the Ad Mech and the Emprah himself. Does that make every space marine an Emperor?

No, it just shows you don't have any idea of what you're talking about or how this whole thing works and probably won't get it or budge on anything no matter what I or anyone else says because you just don't want to actually debate this. Both the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard are organizations under the shared command of the Munitorum. That means they are different parts of the same whole with an identical high command.

To put it another way, look at it like the US military. Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force are all different organizations but share a common structure and organization and overall command (joint chiefs) with a unified system of laws and similar if not identical heirarchies. Officers from one branch can give orders in some respects to forces from another but cannot take direct command of anything as they feel like it, but they operate as one whole under the Department of Defense as lead by the Join Chiefs of Staff, which the 40k equivalent would be the Departmento Munitorum.

The Space Marines would be like the Secret Service (well, the Custodes would but it still fits) while the Inquisition would be the Justice Department and the Officio Assasionorum would be CIA operatives. These organizations have no interconnection with the Department of Defense except through the President of the United States (who we could equate to the Emperor or High Lords) and operate completely independently of each other except in exceptional circumstances as ordered by the President of the United States, whereas the various armed forces under the Department of Defense (as equated to the Departmento Munitorum) are all interconnected with linked command structures, supply systems and legal systems and whatnot and by their very nature operate with the others under an overall shared command at some level.

Hell no. There's a reason the Imperial Army no longer exists: That organisation became the Guard and Navy so that they would never be unified.

They aren't in the way they used to be, an Imperial Guard general cannot command a starship and a Navy captain cannot order a ground invasion. That doesn't mean they are completely distinct organizations the way the Space Marines and AdMech or Custodes are. There is no shared command between the AdMech and the Space Marines, no common legal structure or command heirarchy, with the IG and Navy there is.

1. The Imperial Guard and Navy are not one organisation in any sense of the word. The guard cannot compare the size of their guns to those of the astartes because the astartes have starships. So does the Navy, though it is irrelevant because we were talking about guard and SM. That's really all there is to it.

2. You mistook that statement enormously. I meant for every (for example) Emperor-class ship you add to the navy, add one Emperor-class ship to the astartes. I have no idea why the [MOD EDIT - Do NOT try to 'work around' the swear filter.] you started spilling out horribly incorrect numbers.

3. Your sheer wrong-ness hurts my soul. Those were just entirely flawed analogies. Don't even get me started. As to the Ad Mech-Astartes, they are much, much, MUCH closer than Navy-Guard could ever, ever be. The Ad Mech regulates space marine gene-seed. Can you fathom that amount of trust? Also, roughly 1% of Space Marines are those of the tech variety. PLUSPLUSPLUS without the intervention of the Imperial Fist SPACE MARINES, the Mechanicus would have been destroy by the Dark Mechanicum during the Schism of Mars.

4. No.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. The Imperial Guard and Navy are not one organisation in any sense of the word. The guard cannot compare the size of their guns to those of the astartes because the astartes have starships. So does the Navy, though it is irrelevant because we were talking about guard and SM. That's really all there is to it.

And once you start bringing in starships you by necessity must bring in the IN because they go along with the IG part and parcel, they IG can't fight without the IN to get them to the fight, resupply them, etc.

You mistook that statement enormously. I meant for every (for example) Emperor-class ship you add to the navy, add one Emperor-class ship to the astartes.

First off, why? The SM's don't have anywhere near the same numbers of such vessels, many chapters don't have them at all.

second off, that wasn't exactly clear. I have no idea why the fuuck you started spilling out horribly incorrect numbers.

Evading language censors to insult me instead of actually engaging the arguments I'm putting forth (Ad Hominem Fallacy) isn't exactly posting within the Dakka forum guidelines. Those numbers are from the Battlefleet Gothic source material which it's obvious you aren't familiar with despite it being available free online.

3. Your sheer wrong-ness hurts my soul. Those were just entirely flawed analogies. Don't even get me started.

How so, if they're wrong, then point it out?

Everything I post you simply reply with "WRONG!" without actually saying anything, arguing the point, or providing counter-examples or citing source material. Your pulling the equivalent of plugging your ears and yelling "LALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU".

You don't want to actually debate anything here, and when someone points out something that proves you wrong, you just ignore it and respond with "YOU'RE WRONG" and not saying why...

As to the Ad Mech-Astartes, they are much, much, MUCH closer than Navy-Guard could ever, ever be. The Ad Mech regulates space marine gene-seed. Can you fathom that amount of trust?

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of the SM's complying with a mandate if they want to survive to ensure they aren't suffering mutation or attract Inquisitorial attention, and it's not a matter of the SM's and AdMech engaging in battle or operating together, the Space Marines are far more autonomous from the AdMech than the IG/IN, I'm not sure how you're arguing otherwise. The AdMech produces, maintains, and equips all Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy vessels, vehicles and weapons, provides techpriests to accompany them into battle, etc providing much more direct battlefield support if we're going to go that route.

Also, roughly 1% of Space Marines are those of the tech variety.

And there are actual Techpriests attached to Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy units...so what?

PLUSPLUSPLUS

Are we in a shouting match here?

without the intervention of the Imperial Fist SPACE MARINES, the Mechanicus would have been destroy by the Dark Mechanicum during the Schism of Mars.

And the IG and IN have supported the mechanicus in numerous wars and vice versa thousands of times as well, that has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation.

4. No.

No? No what?

im2randomghgh wrote:IG rely on goodwill from the navy to even get to the batllefield

That's like saying that the IG rely on the good will of the munitorum to get lasguns...

They're about as separate as the navy and air force in the modern US military.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. The Imperial Guard and Navy are not one organisation in any sense of the word. The guard cannot compare the size of their guns to those of the astartes because the astartes have starships. So does the Navy, though it is irrelevant because we were talking about guard and SM. That's really all there is to it.

And once you start bringing in starships you by necessity must bring in the IN because they go along with the IG part and parcel, they IG can't fight without the IN to get them to the fight, resupply them, etc.

You mistook that statement enormously. I meant for every (for example) Emperor-class ship you add to the navy, add one Emperor-class ship to the astartes.

First off, why? The SM's don't have anywhere near the same numbers of such vessels, many chapters don't have them at all.

second off, that wasn't exactly clear. I have no idea why the fuuck you started spilling out horribly incorrect numbers.

Evading language censors to insult me instead of actually engaging the arguments I'm putting forth (Ad Hominem Fallacy) isn't exactly posting within the Dakka forum guidelines. Those numbers are from the Battlefleet Gothic source material which it's obvious you aren't familiar with despite it being available free online.

3. Your sheer wrong-ness hurts my soul. Those were just entirely flawed analogies. Don't even get me started.

How so, if they're wrong, then point it out?

Everything I post you simply reply with "WRONG!" without actually saying anything, arguing the point, or providing counter-examples or citing source material. Your pulling the equivalent of plugging your ears and yelling "LALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU".

You don't want to actually debate anything here, and when someone points out something that proves you wrong, you just ignore it and respond with "YOU'RE WRONG" and not saying why...

As to the Ad Mech-Astartes, they are much, much, MUCH closer than Navy-Guard could ever, ever be. The Ad Mech regulates space marine gene-seed. Can you fathom that amount of trust?

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of the SM's complying with a mandate if they want to survive to ensure they aren't suffering mutation or attract Inquisitorial attention, and it's not a matter of the SM's and AdMech engaging in battle or operating together, the Space Marines are far more autonomous from the AdMech than the IG/IN, I'm not sure how you're arguing otherwise. The AdMech produces, maintains, and equips all Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy vessels, vehicles and weapons, provides techpriests to accompany them into battle, etc providing much more direct battlefield support if we're going to go that route.

Also, roughly 1% of Space Marines are those of the tech variety.

And there are actual Techpriests attached to Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy units...so what?

PLUSPLUSPLUS

Are we in a shouting match here?

without the intervention of the Imperial Fist SPACE MARINES, the Mechanicus would have been destroy by the Dark Mechanicum during the Schism of Mars.

And the IG and IN have supported the mechanicus in numerous wars and vice versa thousands of times as well, that has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation.

4. No.

No? No what?

1. No, Ships are part of the Astartes armoury, and not a part of the Imperial Guard armoury. It really doesn't need to be more complicated then that, not sure why the hell you would insist on complicating things.

2. The point was, again, miss interpreted by you. The point was that in an Astartes-Guard Total war, the SM would get at LEAST as much, if not many, many times more support from the navy then would the guard. Also, I would like to point out, in naval battles, the SM still fight. IG don't.

3. I did not insult you, I used strong language for emphasis of a point. Anyways, your numbers ARE incorrect. There are 50-75 ships per sector battlefleet, not all of which are capital ships. (Lexicanum). Also, the milky way is roughly 100,000 LY in diameter and 1000 LY thick. With each Sector being roughly 200 Cubic LY, and only a miniscule fraction of space being Imperial, Meaning there is absolutely no way there are tens of thousands of sectors.

4. You see boorishness where there is only laziness and profound apathy. This conversation is long past it's expiration date.

5. Yes. Just not 1% of the IG.

6. YESYESYES

7. IG and Navy have supported the Admech before. But they have never saved Mars, and the entire modern Mechanicus with it.

8. No.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. No, Ships are part of the Astartes armoury, and not a part of the Imperial Guard armoury. It really doesn't need to be more complicated then that, not sure why the hell you would insist on complicating things.

Because things aren't that simple. Again, trying to take the IG by itself just isn't the way it works, just as nobody fights a war against the US army without engaging the US Air Force, US Navy (which sends fight aircraft many hundreds of miles inland to support operations), and typically the US Marines as well. The only time you'll fight any one of these things on their own is small isolated engagements, just as the only time the IG fight without assistance from the IN is when they're isolated garrissons.

2. The point was, again, miss interpreted by you. The point was that in an Astartes-Guard Total war, the SM would get at LEAST as much, if not many, many times more support from the navy then would the guard.

Depends on the forces available, in some situations perhaps yes, but on the balance the IN is much stronger and much larger and much more available than Astartes naval support which is designed for quick engagements where hopefully only one ship is needed.

Also, I would like to point out, in naval battles, the SM still fight. IG don't.

Which wasn't part of the discussion. However they often do fight boarding actions and ship defense if on board. The previous IG codex had a story about an IG regiment boarding repelling Ork boarders and counterattacking into the Ork vessel, driving them off.

3. I did not insult you, I used strong language for emphasis of a point. Anyways, your numbers ARE incorrect. There are 50-75 ships per sector battlefleet, not all of which are capital ships. (Lexicanum). Also, the milky way is roughly 100,000 LY in diameter and 1000 LY thick. With each Sector being roughly 200 Cubic LY, and only a miniscule fraction of space being Imperial, Meaning there is absolutely no way there are tens of thousands of sectors.

Assuming those dimensions (100,000wide x100,000long x1,000 tall) we get 10,000,000,000,000 cubic LY in the Galaxy. Divide that by 200 Cubic LY per sector and we get a total of 50,000,000,000 (50 billion) total possible sectors. Tens of thousands of sector battlefleets at that point is an insignificant proportion.

5. Yes. Just not 1% of the IG.

They probably don't need that many, regardless I'm sure there are many crewman capable of routine maintenance and repair because otherwise nothing would function. It still doesn't show a greater link.

7. IG and Navy have supported the Admech before. But they have never saved Mars, and the entire modern Mechanicus with it.

That was ten thousand years before, and the IG and IN have saved many vital forgeworlds and technologies in the intervening timeframe, and the Mechanicus has had it's own run ins with the Astartes as well. Regardless, it still doesn't mean that they're closer in terms of operations than the IG and IN are, they just may have fonder memories of each other at best. The mechanicus does not ride to war with the astartes. It does with the IG and IN and the IG an IN ride to war together under the same strategic command.

8. No.

Again, no what?

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. No, Ships are part of the Astartes armoury, and not a part of the Imperial Guard armoury. It really doesn't need to be more complicated then that, not sure why the hell you would insist on complicating things.

Because things aren't that simple. Again, trying to take the IG by itself just isn't the way it works, just as nobody fights a war against the US army without engaging the US Air Force, US Navy (which sends fight aircraft many hundreds of miles inland to support operations), and typically the US Marines as well. The only time you'll fight any one of these things on their own is small isolated engagements, just as the only time the IG fight without assistance from the IN is when they're isolated garrissons.

2. The point was, again, miss interpreted by you. The point was that in an Astartes-Guard Total war, the SM would get at LEAST as much, if not many, many times more support from the navy then would the guard.

Depends on the forces available, in some situations perhaps yes, but on the balance the IN is much stronger and much larger and much more available than Astartes naval support which is designed for quick engagements where hopefully only one ship is needed.

Also, I would like to point out, in naval battles, the SM still fight. IG don't.

Which wasn't part of the discussion. However they often do fight boarding actions and ship defense if on board. The previous IG codex had a story about an IG regiment boarding repelling Ork boarders and counterattacking into the Ork vessel, driving them off.

3. I did not insult you, I used strong language for emphasis of a point. Anyways, your numbers ARE incorrect. There are 50-75 ships per sector battlefleet, not all of which are capital ships. (Lexicanum). Also, the milky way is roughly 100,000 LY in diameter and 1000 LY thick. With each Sector being roughly 200 Cubic LY, and only a miniscule fraction of space being Imperial, Meaning there is absolutely no way there are tens of thousands of sectors.

Assuming those dimensions (100,000wide x100,000long x1,000 tall) we get 10,000,000,000,000 cubic LY in the Galaxy. Divide that by 200 Cubic LY per sector and we get a total of 50,000,000,000 (50 billion) total possible sectors. Tens of thousands of sector battlefleets at that point is an insignificant proportion.

5. Yes. Just not 1% of the IG.

They probably don't need that many, regardless I'm sure there are many crewman capable of routine maintenance and repair because otherwise nothing would function. It still doesn't show a greater link.

7. IG and Navy have supported the Admech before. But they have never saved Mars, and the entire modern Mechanicus with it.

That was ten thousand years before, and the IG and IN have saved many vital forgeworlds and technologies in the intervening timeframe, and the Mechanicus has had it's own run ins with the Astartes as well. Regardless, it still doesn't mean that they're closer in terms of operations than the IG and IN are, they just may have fonder memories of each other at best. The mechanicus does not ride to war with the astartes. It does with the IG and IN and the IG an IN ride to war together under the same strategic command.

8. No.

Again, no what?

1. With a theater of war 9460528.4x 10 to the power of twelve kilmeters across, every engagement is an isolated engagement. The fastest jets can cross the world in an hour, whereas even with warp travel it could take generations to cross the breadth of the galaxy.

2. -_- you managed to miss it AGAIN. TBH I don't even care. I won't try anymore. Forget this point.

3. If they happen to be there, they won't stand Idle. But astartes take full control of defensive and offensive boarding actions, and even captain their own ships. Unlike Guard. Who don't even have ships. And if you love US military analogies so much, I'll use it to describe your logic. If the USMC and US Army went to war, you think the Army would win because all the other branches would side with them by default and all gang up on the marines.

4. Except it is not a rectangle. It is a cylinder. And 200x200x200 (one sector) which equals 8,000,000 (8 million). So in your estimate, which takes the entire galaxy, Imperial and non Imperial, and overstates it sizes due to a basic geometrical failure on your part, could only contain 6250 sectors. 10's of thousands my ass.

6. Doesn't change the fact that there literally would be absolutely no Mechanicus of Mars without the IF. At all. None.

7. No.

Also consider that the Imperial Guard is a mind-bogglingly broad organization drawn from thousands upon thousands of distinct worlds with distinct fighting styles and tactical doctrine. You might run across a Space Marine Chapter that despises Kriegers and Valhallans for their meat-grinder tactics and callous attitude towards the lives of their conscripted soldiers, but views Elysians and Harakoni as brothers-in-arms for their courage, cunning, and awesomeness. You may find a Chapter that views the Kriegers and Valhallans as pious and honorable souls doing their duty to the Emperor and sees Elysians and Harakoni as cowards unwilling to stand toe-to-toe with the enemy. You might find a Chapter that despises both groups for being puny humans.

This question is generally far too broad to be easily-answered; within Space Marine we see Ultramarines (who are supposed to be the idealistic paragon of angelic awesomeness and thus respect the Guard) and Cadians (who are generally more competent, versatile, and battle-hardened than the average Guard regiment); if the game featured Black Templars and Catachans or Space Wolves and Tallarns the relationship would be completely different.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. With a theater of war 9460528.4x 10 to the power of twelve kilmeters across, every engagement is an isolated engagement. The fastest jets can cross the world in an hour, whereas even with warp travel it could take generations to cross the breadth of the galaxy.

Except often there are navy ships nearby or already there (such as Cadia) or if the IG has to be brought there, then of course the navy is involved...

2. -_- you managed to miss it AGAIN. TBH I don't even care. I won't try anymore. Forget this point.

Which points?

3. If they happen to be there, they won't stand Idle. But astartes take full control of defensive and offensive boarding actions, and even captain their own ships. Unlike Guard. Who don't even have ships. And if you love US military analogies so much, I'll use it to describe your logic. If the USMC and US Army went to war, you think the Army would win because all the other branches would side with them by default and all gang up on the marines.

That's a rather poor analogy there. The US marines aren't an independent organization that answers to practically nobody, they're heavily reliant on other services and are part of the same command structure. The Space Marines would be more like the ATF or Secret Service in terms of their relation here, completely distinct organizations that have little or no connection operational link to the others. What you are describing would be more akin to the IN fighting the IG.

4. Except it is not a rectangle. It is a cylinder.

Ok fine, we'll do it that way. Volume= (3.14)xRadius^2xHeight.

So we get 3.14x50,000^2x1000=7,850,000,000,000 so 21.5% smaller than the way I did it before, not a huge difference on the scales we are talking about.

And 200x200x200 (one sector)

Apparently somebody doesn't know how cubic measurement works. 200 cubic lightyears means you multiply 3 others numbers to get the 200 Cubic LY, something like 5x4x10. That's how cubic measurements work. If something says its 200 cubic *whatever*, that doesn't mean its 200x200x200*whatever*, it means AxBxC=200*whatever*.

which equals 8,000,000 (8 million). So in your estimate, which takes the entire galaxy, Imperial and non Imperial, and overstates it sizes due to a basic geometrical failure on your part, could only contain 6250 sectors. 10's of thousands my ass.

Or it's a basic failing of mathematics on your part.

Just to back myself up, Check the wikipedia numbers on the Milky Way's volume listed by cubic light years. It looks identical to that number I just calculated here a couple lines up doesn't it? Using that number of 7.85 trillion cubic lightyears divided by 200 cubic light years per sector, we get 39,250,000,000 (just over 39 billion) possible sectors.

Let's assume only 1 in Ten Million sectors has a sector battlefleet, 1 ten thousandth of 1% of the galaxies possible sectors, that still gives us 785,000 Sector Battlefleets consisting of dozens upon dozens of vessels, or almost 800 sector battlefleets per Space Marine chapter. Tens of thousands of sector battlefleets all of a sudden doesn't sound so ridiculous anymore does it?

6. Doesn't change the fact that there literally would be absolutely no Mechanicus of Mars without the IF. At all. None.

Which is 100% completely irrelevant to anything being discussed and highly unlikely given that the Mechanicus had many other worlds at the time as well.

Vaktathi wrote:A single, isolated battle doesn't say a whole lot about what would typically happen. Also, if this is from a BL book (not familiar with what battle you're talking about) they aren't exactly required to know what they're talking about, if you've read the Space Wolves omnibus they talk about the IG fielding large numbers of Predators and Rhinos for instance. GW studio fluff very clearly states that the SM ships are not generally capable of going toe to toe with IN ships, Battlebarges can but are incredibly rare and outnumbered by similarly capable IN ships. The IN and Inquisition watch SM fleets and acquisitions very closely to ensure that they *don't* gain the capabilities to adequately challenge the Imperial Navy.

It wasn't just an isolated battle, though. There were repeated hit and runs where the Strike Cruiser survived Navy fire and then the Space Wolves fleet turned up and destroyed the rest of the Navy fleet. It's from
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp.39-42
Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Edition) apparently.

The attempt to reduce Astartes anti-naval capacity has kind of failed. The Astartes generally dominate on in space as well as on ground against normal Humans. The difference is in numbers, but that's another game completely.

Regardless, the Astartes have 'bigger guns' than the Imperial Guard, if not the Imperial Navy.

To me, Vaktathi is talking the most sense here.

Honestly. Most of the Space Marine disciples are crowing the awesomeness of the Battle Barges and whatnot. How many do you think there actually are?

According to the Battlefleet Gothic rulebooks (available at http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=4300022, but I'm consulting http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1280008_BFG_Imperial_Fleets.pdf for this), a Battle Barge can carry three companies of Space Marines. A Strike Cruiser carries one company. Space Marine chapters consist of 10 companies. So, I think its safe to assume 2 Battle Barges and 4 Strike Cruisers per chapter.

Now, aside from Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers (their only types of capital ships)....all the Space Marines have access to, by the Battlefleet Gothic rules, are Firestorm, Sword, Cobra, Gladius, and Nova-class frigates. Oh, and Hunter-class destroyers. So, Space Marines have the most diversity in their choices of escorts.

Now, if we discount the Space Marine vessels in the Imperial Navy list....we have three separate kinds of battleships, two classes of battlecruisers (heavier than cruisers), four classes of cruisers, and three classes of light cruisers, plus access to Falchionand Firestorm-class frigates. There are also "Grand Cruisers" that I don't know how they fit into the TO&E, but look like they can monkey-stomp some stuff. They also have access to all the Space Marine escorts, if you're not engaging in civil war, too.

My point is that the Navy just has access to more kinds of heavier ships than the Space Marines do. Furthermore, Space Marine capital ships are acknowledged to be superior when boarding actions are involved (because Space Marines are superior....um...Marines....), but their ships are configured for planetary assault, rather than fleet actions. An Apocalypse-class battleship has more shields, longer ranged weapons. and lances, whereas the Battle Barge has a slightly higher speed (+5 cm), torpedoes, and three Thunderhawk squadrons. A Battle Barge can start unleashing pain once it closes to within 30 cm of its target; the Apocalypse has a nova cannon with a 30 cm minimum range, a weapons battery with a range double that of the Battle Barge, and lances (with, conveniently, a 30-cm range). Also, the Apocalypse is cheaper. Oh, the reason I'm going on about the lances is because lances do a lot more damage against ships than mere weapons batteries.

Comparing the Strike Cruiser, weighing in at 145 points, to a Defiant-class light cruiser, at 130, still doesn't give any evidence of a categorical superiority of Astartes vessels. Again, the Strike Cruiser has higher speed, and the Defiant has lances. Their respective squadrons cancel each other out, and the Bombardment Cannon does....something. So, a Strike cruiser might be able to take a Defiant. Woo-hoo.

So certainly, if you only go with organic assets, the Space Marines have "bigger guns." However, the Imperial Navy has superiority over Space Marine fleets in a fleet engagement, whereas the Space Marine fleet won't necessarily be able to hold the orbitals against a fleet built for a fleet action. Like, oh, say, a Navy fleet. Furthermore, there is evidence of cooperation between the Navy and the Guard for naval gunfire support: the Officer of the Fleet. Now, since the Guard can't get anywhere without the Navy, its safe to say that the Guard will have NGS as well. So, if a Navy fleet cannot hold the orbitals, neither could a Space Marine fleet, and if both fleets are hanging around in orbit, well, the question of who has bigger guns is up for debate (lances vs bombardment cannon, or weapons batteries vs torpedoes, or nova cannon, or whatever). In which case...the "bigger guns" goes to whoever has the larger organic fire support weapons. Who do you think that could be?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It wasn't just an isolated battle, though. There were repeated hit and runs where the Strike Cruiser survived Navy fire and then the Space Wolves fleet turned up and destroyed the rest of the Navy fleet. It's from
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp.39-42
Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Edition) apparently.

Those were Space Wolves. This comparison is like taking Gaunt's Ghosts as an example to claim that individual Guardsmen generally have no problem whatsoever fragging Astartes in a one-on-one.
Discount the hero bonus stuff (seriously, the SW fighting 1/5! of the entire Imperium, and winning?). Take what is mentioned in the non-flavor basic descriptions of the material the factions work with instead to get a better picture, untainted by what is commonly referred to as plot armour. The books flat out state that Marine ships aren't meant to keep up with Navy vessels in a direct gun engagement, and it even gives you a reason for why that is so. Why the debates?

Just like ever since the Horus Heresy and its reformations Space Marines weren't meant for Guard-style line fighting and traditional warfare, Space Marines also weren't made to dominate space battles, and their equipment (ships) reflects this. The purpose of a Space Marine fleet is to get the troops from point A to point B as safe and as fast as possible, and to assist with the landing operation. If someone chooses to interpret the situation as presented in the codices and army books differently because Spess Mehreens always have to be the bestest at whatever they do, that's your decision of course (and I'm sure some Black Library author's interpretation will synch with that too), but the studio material itself is rather clear on the matter.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It wasn't just an isolated battle, though. There were repeated hit and runs where the Strike Cruiser survived Navy fire and then the Space Wolves fleet turned up and destroyed the rest of the Navy fleet. It's from
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp.39-42
Codex: Space Wolves (2nd Edition) apparently.

Well, I don't own either of those books so I can't comment, but that was before they codified 40k starship fluff much and the Sisters vs Space Wolves fluff now is rather different, and IIRC is of a single conflict that seems to have been retconned since then. That was back when IG still had Assault Cannons, Leman Russ tanks had better armored than Land Raiders, Dark Eldar and Tau didn't exist, Squats were playable, and Vortex weapons were common HQ wargear

The attempt to reduce Astartes anti-naval capacity has kind of failed.

How so?

The Astartes generally dominate on in space as well as on ground against normal Humans.

Again, how so? They're average capital ship is smaller with fewer guns. Battle Barges are rare vessels that aren't constantly committed to battle all the time and not all SM chapters have them or usually only 1. Strike Cruisers are the typical SM capital ship and are much smaller than IN cruisers in every way.

The difference is in numbers, but that's another game completely.

Except again, according to BFG, only Battle Barges are large enough to engage IN ships on something like an even footing and they're rare enough that not even every chapter has one.

Regardless, the Astartes have 'bigger guns' than the Imperial Guard, if not the Imperial Navy.

which, while true in an absolute sense, isn't quite accurate.


EDIT: I totally forgot this entire time about the IG's ability to field intermediate range ballistic missiles fitted with either plasma, nuclear or vortex missiles...

So there's also the Deathstrike to consider.

The Imperial Guard definitely have bigger guns than the Astartes, going by ground weapons.

Battlecannon compared to autocannon, for example, on their main tanks (which is an unfair comparison normally, as the predator is a light tank, but it IS their main tank so it's valid here). Countless kinds of heavy artillery (including ICBMs) versus thunderfire cannon or whirlwind. Every version of the Leman Russ. Heck even their primary transport has bigger guns, an ML and HB compared to an SB (the razorback in comparison has to give up transport space-- while the chimera has MORE transport space despite having two fire support weapons and more fire points).

The Guard has bigger guns. The Marines' strength isn't in big guns, it's in their ability to precisely apply a large amount of force and then get away with minimal damage, at least in lore.

I know, game and etc, but compare Titus in Space Marine to a scene where ten guardsmen are fighting Orks, one of whom is manning a plasma cannon mount (with a built in coolant system so it doesn't overheat). The guardsmen have more firepower overall. But even with just the bolgun alone Titus is capable of focusing his senses (Fury's marksman mode) and delivering headshot after headshot after headshot after headshot to kill Orks off in rapid succession due to precisely applied firepower, even though the Guardsmen have the advantage fo having more weapons and a FAR more powerful heavy weapon.

Lynata wrote:Those were Space Wolves. This comparison is like taking Gaunt's Ghosts as an example to claim that individual Guardsmen generally have no problem whatsoever fragging Astartes in a one-on-one.

That's a poor argument and you know it. It's in the Codex. You might as well deny the existence of Thunderwolf Cavalry (as well you might).

Discount the hero bonus stuff (seriously, the SW fighting 1/5! of the entire Imperium, and winning?).

Parts of it were tied up in various other planets and conflicts, and I assume that only a fraction of Bucharis' theoretical power fell upon Fenris.

The books flat out state that Marine ships aren't meant to keep up with Navy vessels in a direct gun engagement, and it even gives you a reason for why that is so.

Sure, they're not supposed to. The Ecclesiarchy isn't supposed to have any men-at-arms either, and then they merely went through a loophole that betrayed the spirit of the ruling. I'm not saying that a Battlebarge will take on an Imperial Battleship, but I'd probably take the background over the rules in regards to Strike Cruisers facing Navy Cruisers.

Why the debates?

Because of contradictory statements.

Vaktathi wrote:that was before they codified 40k starship fluff much and the Sisters vs Space Wolves fluff now is rather different

That doesn't mean that this point has been retconned, and this piece of background had nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle.

How so?

Well, I exaggerated there to be honest. The Navy of course has far more firepower than the Astartes, and biggest ships against biggest ships (barring notable exceptions), the Navy will emerge victorious. However, Strike Cruiser against Navy Cruiser has one piece of background going for it and some rules.

Again, how so? They're average capital ship is smaller with fewer guns. Battle Barges are rare vessels that aren't constantly committed to battle all the time and not all SM chapters have them or usually only 1. Strike Cruisers are the typical SM capital ship and are much smaller than IN cruisers in every way.

On equal terms the Astartes still seem to perform remarkably in space actions. Strike Cruisers also have more automated systems to allow for their smaller crew.

Except again, according to BFG, only Battle Barges are large enough to engage IN ships on something like an even footing and they're rare enough that not even every chapter has one.

I'll retract that statement, since it isn't accurate as you pointed out.

which, while true in an absolute sense, isn't quite accurate.

You still yet to tell me why the Imperial Navy will be so keen to side against the Emperors Angels' of Death.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:That's a poor argument and you know it. It's in the Codex.

Yes it is, and it still is just one occurrence that is contradicted by what other Codices state to be the norm. This is what I meant with the "hero bonus". At times, the outcome of individual engagements may be completely different to what "should" have happened - be it because of sudden technological malfunctions, weather conditions, the experience/condition/morale of those involved, or even just plain dumb luck. I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase "the warp did it", too. All of this doesn't change the fact that the ships themselves are quite simply neither supposed nor expected to perform this way. This is why I am argueing to favor technical specifications/descriptions over some one-off hero story.

Contrary to popular belief, it also wasn't the longbows that had allowed the English to win the Battle of Agincourt, for example ...

DAKKA DAKKA

Melissia wrote:That's like saying that the IG rely on the good will of the munitorum to get lasguns...

Guardsman: "Can we get those Lasguns, please....?????"
Munitorum Officer:"No, you cannot."
Guardsman:"Pretty PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Munitorum Officer:"I don't know...."
Guardsman:"The ORks are almost upon us, PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Munitorum Officer:"Ok, here you a....oh, you are already chopped...."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And let me get few things straight here:

1. IG and IN work together just like AD and IoM ( they do not bweling one another but they work closely together ).

2. Space Wolves, aldo very powerful chapter can't fight 0.5% of the Imperium alone, 20% is a little off scale for a 1200 strong marine chapter.

3. Guard have bigger guns then Astartes, in fact Guard is better armed, armored and supplied. Astartes are after all self sustained special forces military force while the Guard is real military.

4. And SoB can totally kick Astartes ass simply with numbers alone ( even if there is 6 major orders there are like millions of lesser orders witch could mean million SoB all across the Imperium ), not to mention Celestians or Living Saints.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
That doesn't mean that this point has been retconned, and this piece of background had nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle.

I thought that was in regards to the conflict started with the ecclesiarchy was it not?

On equal terms the Astartes still seem to perform remarkably in space actions.

On equal terms yes, but fighting IN ships isn't equal terms. The IN ships are bigger and able to take more damage generally, much better designed for ship to ship combat, and for surface bombardment have access to bigger guns than even the Astartes. Lances are a primary naval weapon for most fleets to engage enemy ships and bombard planets, SM's only have access to these on small escort vessels whose availability for SM requisition in their fleets is often tightly controlled by the Inquisition. The IN has massive nova cannons, that can one-shot a Strike cruiser or annihilate entire armies on planets in one shot, Astartes have no such weapons. They have bombardment cannons which are sorta upgunned naval macrocannon and do more damage than normal cannons, but they still don't match Lances or Nova Cannons for power.

Strike Cruisers also have more automated systems to allow for their smaller crew.

Right, so they're more efficient in terms of crew requirements, but that usually make a whole lot of difference in a tactical engagement.

You still yet to tell me why the Imperial Navy will be so keen to side against the Emperors Angels' of Death.

Because the Astartes are essentially autonomous, independent organizations that do what they want and are beholden to nobody and are connected to the Imperium by little more than oaths of loyalty for the most part, they live and operate apart from the Imperium. The IG and IN are both subsections of the same organization which is an integral part of the Imperial Administration with direct representation amongst the High Lords of Terra. The Astartes often seen by the IN as a threat almost as often as xenos and heretics because of this, while the IG are direct comrades in arms under the same strategic command.

Brother Coa wrote:4. And SoB can totally kick Astartes ass simply with numbers alone ( even if there is 6 major orders there are like millions of lesser orders witch could mean million SoB all across the Imperium ), not to mention Celestians or Living Saints.

Naw, contrary to popular belief there's much less SoB than Astartes - but unlike Marine Chapters, the Orders Militant are much more tightly connected (all sharing a common hierarchy that, somewhere at the top, ends at a single leader) and often work in unison where deemed necessary. They won't show up often, but where they do, they do it in force. That said, the Citadel article on the subject does mention that purging Marine Chapters is "thankfully a rare task", probably for all parties involved.

You're quite correct on the other points you raised, though - at least in my opinion and from what I've read so far. Though I would add that it depends heavily on the individual regiment as far as the quality of arms and equipment is concerned - there's a vast difference between a lumbering behemoth like the Steel Legion or grizzled trench experts like the Death Korps and a bunch of conscripted farmhands who were just given second-hand lasguns and three weeks of training.

Lynata wrote:Naw, contrary to popular belief there's much less SoB than Astartes - but unlike Marine Chapters, the Orders Militant are much more tightly connected (all sharing a common hierarchy that, somewhere at the top, ends at a single leader) and often work in unison where deemed necessary. They won't show up often, but where they do, they do it in force. That said, the Citadel article on the subject does mention that purging Marine Chapters is "thankfully a rare task", probably for all parties involved.

Really? I always thought IG>SoB>SM. And that was logical to me because in some was Inquisition must keep balance between orders. There are 1000 Grey Knights, there is probably around 10.000 Deathwatch Space Marines and there should be in some logic great number of Sisters of Battle ( probably more than a million ).

You're quite correct on the other points you raised, though - at least in my opinion and from what I've read so far. Though I would add that it depends heavily on the individual regiment as far as the quality of arms and equipment is concerned - there's a vast difference between a lumbering behemoth like the Steel Legion or grizzled trench experts like the Death Korps and a bunch of conscripted farmhands who were just given second-hand lasguns and three weeks of training.

You are right when said the situation vary from world to world. I just said what was, in theory, some average points for all. The rest depends from world to world.

Lynata wrote:Yes it is, and it still is just one occurrence that is contradicted by what other Codices state to be the norm.

The Astartes can't compare to the power of the Imperial Navy, and I acknowledge that. However, I don't really see why a Strike Cruiser couldn't be capable of taking on an Imperial Navy Cruiser. Does that really skew the balance that much that it means that the naval power of the Astartes isn't restricted?

Vaktathi wrote:I thought that was in regards to the conflict started with the ecclesiarchy was it not?

No, it was in regards to the renegade Cardinal Bucharis, who shortly after the Age of Apostasy carved out his own empire from parts of the Imperium. His forces included Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy forces.

On equal terms yes, but fighting IN ships isn't equal terms. The IN ships are bigger and able to take more damage generally, much better designed for ship to ship combat, and for surface bombardment have access to bigger guns than even the Astartes. Lances are a primary naval weapon for most fleets to engage enemy ships and bombard planets, SM's only have access to these on small escort vessels whose availability for SM requisition in their fleets is often tightly controlled by the Inquisition. The IN has massive nova cannons, that can one-shot a Strike cruiser or annihilate entire armies on planets in one shot, Astartes have no such weapons. They have bombardment cannons which are sorta upgunned naval macrocannon and do more damage than normal cannons, but they still don't match Lances or Nova Cannons for power.

I would think that boarding actions could level the playing field, and Strike Cruisers are supposed to be fast and maneuverable, right? I would imagine that they can dodge a fair amount of shots (as I assume most ships can, considering the distances in space).

Right, so they're more efficient in terms of crew requirements, but that usually make a whole lot of difference in a tactical engagement.

It does, however, mean that more space can be set aside for redundancies and such.

Because the Astartes are essentially autonomous, independent organizations that do what they want and are beholden to nobody and are connected to the Imperium by little more than oaths of loyalty for the most part, they live and operate apart from the Imperium. The IG and IN are both subsections of the same organization which is an integral part of the Imperial Administration with direct representation amongst the High Lords of Terra. The Astartes often seen by the IN as a threat almost as often as xenos and heretics because of this, while the IG are direct comrades in arms under the same strategic command.

The Astartes are still legendary figures among the vast majority of the Imperium. Assuming they aren't clearly traitors, it would likely take a fair amount of persuasion to convince other loyalists to attack them. I'm unsure how many among the Imperial Navy know of that aspect of the Astartes-Navy relationship. Would it be common knowledge to all Captains?

@ SomeRandomEvilGuy; If you have access to the Battlefleet Gothic: Armada book look on page 26. It's a little fluff piece called 'Adeptus Astartes Fleet Capabilities in the Gothic Sector, Obscura Segmentum'. Which is exactly what your asking, I believe. I'm not going to copy the whole thing, it is quite long. A whole page in fact. But I will quote the last paragraph for you.

So, your half right! IMO

It's also worth noting that, in most of the fluff I've read, Space Marines (and their variants) tend not to play by Imperial Navy-style rules, anyway. Broadside weight matters little when you've got squads of eight-foot, power armored madmen slaughtering their way to your bridge.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The Astartes can't compare to the power of the Imperial Navy, and I acknowledge that. However, I don't really see why a Strike Cruiser couldn't be capable of taking on an Imperial Navy Cruiser. Does that really skew the balance that much that it means that the naval power of the Astartes isn't restricted?

Looking at the Space Wolves, whose example you brought forth yourself ... apparently.

Brother Coa wrote:Really? I always thought IG>SoB>SM. And that was logical to me because in some was Inquisition must keep balance between orders. There are 1000 Grey Knights, there is probably around 10.000 Deathwatch Space Marines and there should be in some logic great number of Sisters of Battle ( probably more than a million ).

Well, the SoB, although apparently a favored tool of the Inquisition when it comes to hunting down renegade Chapters due to questions of loyalty, is not the only force capable to do so - they might always just ask another Chapter. The Marines are pretty fractured, and though some Chapters have a friendly relationship and may help each other out, others are in feud and will gladly respond to a request to wage war against the "traitor" - the Badab War is an excellent example for such inter-Chapter politics. Even neutral Chapters are likely to be persuaded if the case is clear, probably taking Marines going renegade as an affront against overall Astartes honour and, of course, their Emperor. Worst case, throwing lots of IG at them may help, too, accompanied by ample fire support from orbiting Navy ships.

Anyhow, the Sisters took 2.500 years (M36-M38.5) to have their numbers swell from 10k to 30k, so I don't think another 2.500 years (M38.5-M41) would have them suddenly grow into millions or even billions. The amount of Minor Orders is "unfortunately" unknown, though they are often mentioned in combination with descriptions like there being "many" of them (which doesn't sound too impressive) and often only incorporating a hundred or so Sisters each. From what we know of the fluff, the Minor Orders Militant play a very small role anyways, rarely being mentioned at all anywhere, which is likely due to their small size limiting the scope of their operations - I'd imagine most of them taking over duties such as guarding holy sites and pilgrim routes, purity control and smaller Inquisitorial requests, whereas the Major Orders with their thousands of Sisters do all the big campaigns and Crusades.

This is also reflected in the few official force composition charts we have: The number of Sisters of Battle joining the first defense against Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade was about 10.000 Sisters of Battle from 3 Major and 2 Minor Orders compared to more than 175.000 Space Marines from more than two dozen Chapters. [chart] The War for Armageddon (which resulted in the Order of the Martyred Lady being left with barely enough Sisters to field three companies) was similar, with ~1.000 Sisters from 2 Major Orders compared to ~150.000 Space Marines from 24 Chapters [chart]. There's not even enough Sisters around to protect all the major Cathedrals and Cardinals; the Basilika on Bladen for example (according to Codex Cityfight the most-important holy site of its sub-sector, on a world where "the Ecclesiarchy was strong") had to be defended by a Cadian regiment and the local clergy alone...

The comparatively low number of Sisters is probably as much for political reasons (Decree Passive - it's spirit is in violation already and the Church may not want to push it too far) as it is for reasons of cost (Astartes-grade equipment doesn't come cheap, most of the Church's budget likely goes into maintaining its infrastructure) and recruitment (the vast majority of Schola progena, the only source of new SoB novices, becomes Adeptus Terra scribes or join one of the many other branches of the Imperium - only few end up becoming Storm Troopers and Commissarrs or Sisters, and of the latter fewer still become Sisters of Battle). This is then combined with a high rate of attrition; the numbers of SoB are described as being in constant flux, with Major Orders sometimes capping at 7.000 Sisters, other times only having a few hundred (see Martyred Lady after Armageddon), and the vast majority of fresh recruits is needed to simply balance out combat losses.

I think the misconception results from most people assuming that a troop type's power is also reflected in their number, which is an understandable conclusion, though not always true. It takes a lot of digging in the studio material to notice this, though. There's also few people who are aware that, according to the Codices, there is only a single Storm Trooper regiment in the Imperial Guard with no more than 10.000 men, which is even fewer than the Marines or the Sisters (that said, of course there are still "equivalent" troops such as ISTs, Grenadiers and Kasrkin elsewhere).

Now back to the original topic though! As much as I like talking about Sisters fluff, I probably shouldn't go too much OT.

ToBeWilly wrote:@ SomeRandomEvilGuy; If you have access to the Battlefleet Gothic: Armada book look on page 26. It's a little fluff piece called 'Adeptus Astartes Fleet Capabilities in the Gothic Sector, Obscura Segmentum'. Which is exactly what your asking, I believe. I'm not going to copy the whole thing, it is quite long. A whole page in fact. But I will quote the last paragraph for you.

Spoiler:

In conclussion I would surmis that the Adeptus Astartes commands powerful fleet forces, capable of overwhelming even a heavily defended system. In a fleet action they would be at a disadvantage in comparision to Imperial vessels due to their special adaptations for planetary assaults. However it is hard to imagine that the Adeptus Astartes would accept a ship to ship fight on any but the most favourable terms, instead operating against shipping lanes, dock facilities and other vulnerable assets. I only pray that they remain on our side.

So, your half right! IMO

I don't, but that is indeed interesting. Thank you very much. Could I ask as to whose opinion it is?

Lynata wrote:Looking at the Space Wolves, whose example you brought forth yourself ... apparently.

Ah, but that was a fleet of Battle Barges. I mean, it still sounds silly unless one assumes that there more than just two fleets that Bucharis had sent out (hence resulting in him having a fraction of his forces present than if they were amassed - much likely the Imperium now, in fact) or that he'd already sustained large naval losses. The Space Wolves are supposed to have a larger-than-normal fleet, but otherwise it is a bit absurd if they were indeed capable of taking down almost the entire Segmentum Fleet.

So basically, I still think it could work if a Strike Cruiser would typically defeat a Navy Cruiser.

Seaward wrote:It's also worth noting that, in most of the fluff I've read, Space Marines (and their variants) tend not to play by Imperial Navy-style rules, anyway. Broadside weight matters little when you've got squads of eight-foot, power armored madmen slaughtering their way to your bridge.

It's hard to get those guys on there when they can be intercepted by numerous point defense systems (which most authors seem to forget exist), fighter craft, along with kilometer long frigate escorts, while the Strike Cruiser is taking fire from beyond its weapons range and the IN ships are firing their own torpedoes (filled not with marines but naval warheads the size of Macharius tanks)

I would think that boarding actions could level the playing field, and Strike Cruisers are supposed to be fast and maneuverable, right? I would imagine that they can dodge a fair amount of shots (as I assume most ships can, considering the distances in space).

they're a bit faster than IN vessels but not amazingly so, the bigger issue is that they require less in the way of logistics and red tape to move from place to place and what makes them more mobile in strategic terms.

The Astartes are still legendary figures among the vast majority of the Imperium. Assuming they aren't clearly traitors, it would likely take a fair amount of persuasion to convince other loyalists to attack them.

Engaging the Imperial guard that they're sharing a command with would probably do it as the overall commander probably doesn't want one portion of his force destroyed while the other sits by, and the retribution from the Munitorum and the Lord Commander Militant against a Navy officer who sat buy while IG troops were destroyed would probably be just as lethal as the Astartes. The IN is also actively wary of the Astartes because they have been known to attack other Imperial organizations if they feel they need to (in the Chapter's own subjective opinion of course) or if they are offended in some way, and are also one of the very few things that represents some sort of threat to the IN's power.

I'm unsure how many among the Imperial Navy know of that aspect of the Astartes-Navy relationship. Would it be common knowledge to all Captains?

the greater details? probably not, but they'd likely have a fair idea, if nothing else from their databanks of recognized Imperial starships.

Vaktathi wrote:It's hard to get those guys on there when they can be intercepted by numerous point defense systems (which most authors seem to forget exist), fighter craft, along with kilometer long frigate escorts, while the Strike Cruiser is taking fire from beyond its weapons range and the IN ships are firing their own torpedoes (filled not with marines but naval warheads the size of Macharius tanks)

I suspect point defense systems are overlooked largely because torpedoes seem relatively rare compared to lance weaponry, nova cannons, and all the other crud discussed in void battles. I also believe drop pods have a bit of fluff about how they come down too fast to be tracked by air defense systems - which is of course complete BS - so one might assume boarding torpedoes have the same eye-rolling lightning fast speed.

There are also other methods of delivery, such as Thunderhawks. You're right, though, in that it's not exactly a piece of cake to get aboard an IN vessel if the IN doesn't want you there, but, on the other hand, boarding is something Marines are designed for, so I fall in the camp that assumes they can do it. Like far too much in 40K, we don't know enough about it.