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I know that its cannon but is the fluff in it acknowledged alot and all, im not really sure how to word this. But anyway i was reading GW staff dont like referencing it in newer stuf and all. never actually read it though.

I do not understand what you are attempting to communicate in that post.

Master of Arms, do you mean the original 1st edition 40k rulebook, or the RPG of the same name?

If you mean the former, then yes the fluff/background has moved on a lot since then. Rules for death toads, psychic cats, and of course Squats, even marines are a lot different to how they are portrayed now (no genetic engineering, just psychos and scum who have been given armour and indoctrinated into a 'chapters' of shock troops). Although the 'core' of what makes 40k what it is is largely unchanged I think - the dystopian future, humanity fighting and gradually losing, the slightly off-centre sense of humour.

That being said, it is a slice of gaming history, worth getting hold of if you can find a reasonably priced copy on ebay

The old game, Rogue Trader?

It has been 90%+ re-written, ret-conned or simply removed from successive editions of WH40K, but anything that hasn't been altered or removed by later publications should still be valid.

Psienesis wrote:The old game, Rogue Trader?

It has been 90%+ re-written, ret-conned or simply removed from successive editions of WH40K, but anything that hasn't been altered or removed by later publications should still be valid.

Pretty much this, aye. For example, the WD designer's notes on the 3E WH Codex even clearly stated that RT era Sisters fluff is still valid. It's amazing how far back the writers sometimes go.

It is very much worth reading through all those older books - you never know what kind of detail you may pick up! Always make sure they weren't overruled (retconned) by newer stuff, of course. But in general, those ancient tomes (especially the 2E ones) are a gold mine for fluff.

Pacific wrote:Master of Arms, do you mean the original 1st edition 40k rulebook, or the RPG of the same name?

If you mean the former, then yes the fluff/background has moved on a lot since then. Rules for death toads, psychic cats, and of course Squats, even marines are a lot different to how they are portrayed now (no genetic engineering, just psychos and scum who have been given armour and indoctrinated into a 'chapters' of shock troops). Although the 'core' of what makes 40k what it is is largely unchanged I think - the dystopian future, humanity fighting and gradually losing, the slightly off-centre sense of humour.

That being said, it is a slice of gaming history, worth getting hold of if you can find a reasonably priced copy on ebay

I meant the first edition of 40k.

Yeah, it's almost all been Retconned. Rogue Trader fluff is now useless jargon of what once was, and will never be.

I think he's asking about how canon stuff in RT was.

Today, nearly all of it is different. And I know I sound like a heretic when I say it was changed for the better (for the most part).

Heretic!

It's still worthwhile a read though, and I think has a certain charm to it that the more sterile releases of recent years lack.
Orks in particular, and the 2 books they received in 1st edition, had far more depth to them than they do now.

Sounds like it would be interesting to read. About when did they really start to retconn everything, or was it a gradual process?

Rather gradual, stuff changes from each edition to the next, but rarely in the same faction/army. Though stuff can be... rather dramatic between one edition and the next... it's usually not too "out there".

Yes I think so. The biggest change probably came from 1st edition to 2nd edition, although you could also say the 'Warhammer 40,000 Compilation" moved things forward a lot. Most important, the conception of a Space Marine changed from being something like the 'Sardakur' from Frank Herbert's Dune (psychopaths, from the worst worlds, trained and given armour and a gun) towards the genetically altered super heroes we know them as today. Rules wise, they went from T3 to T4, something which wasn't very popular with people who played Xenos (even back then many people used to complain that too much of GWs focus was on marines )

Really, I think the universe has changed remarkably little since 2nd and especially 3rd edition (the rules even more so, a few small aspects twiddled but you are essentially playing the same game now as 13-14 years ago). The squats got eaten by Nids after an abortive launch in 2nd edition, but otherwise many things are still the same

But generally the universe was a lot less fleshed out, there was a lot more mystery and places for fans to fill in the blanks with their own imagination - it was that much more intriguing because of it, and I think that is why many people who followed the game back then will always think of it fondly.

Yes indeed. The universe per se hasn't changed a lot in the setting, it has expanded to describe and beef other races up, creating new ones and deleting others in the process. In general many things regarding fluff have improved but with the passage of time it has lost that "mature readers" thingy that made the universe so grimdark in those days. RT era was not meant for teenages but GW gradually realized that the business lied in massification and began to create a more "for all readers" grimadrk style of universe.

Now in game terms the system do has improved A LOT...

And in many occasions I miss the Space Marines from that era. These murderer psychos were real badass, not the clean warrior monks of today.

Read some of the 1st ed on scribd, skipped around through things, and it seemed pretty different.

Go the whole hog, buy a smelly old copy from ebay (you can sometimes get it for $15 or so), you know you want to