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I've been running a vanilla marine army for quite a while, and getting my innards handed to me every time. So now the time has come to change things up a bit after a 6 month break.
I've scanned the threads without any concrete results that could guide me, so I've sort of put together a list with what I've got, and hope to get some useful C&C, so I know what to invest in next.

(My competition is mostly BA, SW, Vanilla DP Hell, IG and Orks)

HQ
Librarian w. TA/SS, Smite & Null (Not sure about the powers though)

TROOPS
Tac [10] w. Melta/ML + Rhino

Tac [10] w. Melta/ML + Rhino

Tac [10] w. Melta/ML + DP (Haven't got another rhino yet)

ELITES
Ass. Termies [5] w. 3xLC, 2xTH/SS + LR Redeemer (Goes with Librarian)

Rifleman Dread (2xTL-AC)

Rifleman Dread (2xTL-AC)

FAST ATTACK
Att. Bike w. MM

Att. Bike w. MM (Two separate squads)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator w. HB

Predator w. HB

______________________________________________________--

I've been using a regular LR for quite a while instead of the dreads and preds, which basically wasn't working. I'm afraid the list is too based on medium level armor, and not enough on infantry and heavy armor.
I see a lot of lists here use Typhoons, but my experience is that attack bikes does it better and cheaper. I have rarely played a game where a land speeder survived past the opponent's first turn.

This list has not been played yet, as I'm still missing the preds and dreads, but I will try and proxy them for a bit before joining the local tourneys.

My goal is a well rounded army that can deal with most army types on a competitive scale.

Your list is composed of nothing but great units. It seems balanced enough too.

I would change the termies to full TH/SS, smite for gate/vortex and maybe put some MMs in the tacsquads. A single missile isn't very likely to damage a vehicle, but a MM isn't something you just ignore. If you don't plan to combatsquad, they're nice to have around midfield to deny area.

Thanx.

I plan on combatsquading my tacs, and the tactic I usually use is let the ML hang back and lay down fire while the other squad with sgt. and Meltagun get in the enemy's face.
With MM though, how would you run tactics? I tend to press for maximizing usage, and spending time getting a heavy weapon in place with a rhino is a hazzle, as I can't shoot the same turn I moved, and chances are the enemy will either focus fire on my rhino with MM, or just move away before I can shoot.
I totally agree with the ML, but I'm wondering how to capitalize on the MM?

Drive the squad 12", pop smoke, hang out. Hopefully be on an objective.

If you deployed 12" in, you'll be bang in the middle of the board. If the enemy moves away, congratulations you just took the objective.

I tried to find a fault with this list as a BA player (what havock can I wreck on him muhahaha) but it seems solid.
I would suggest remove the droppod and put the points elsewhere and 1 droppod at 1750 is a bad idea (run a minimum of 3 1500+ and 5 2000+ imo) maybe two pw's on the sgts....

Here is how I would run the formation vs another balanced list (of course be reserved against assault armies and aggressive against gunlines).

Park combat squaded MLs, dreads and Preds in cover prodividing transport popping power (sorry av13+ is going to be a long shot with them) forcing them to move to you if possible.

Land raider moves up to midfeild with Rhinos around trying to play the tank wall cover game with Attack bikes behind ready to jump ahead and cause some damage. With melta's in the mix you have to be withing threat range in the mid field for them to be of any use.

Your strength lays in 9 long range shots applying pressure and a decent midfield element with melta.

As it stands it's a solid list. Light on long ranged anti-tank, and the units don't really synergise with eachother very well, but that's what happens when you sink 600 points into a single unit.

Why does every SM player feel the need for the Assault Terminator/Land Raider combination? I used to run a Deathstar likes this, but it fails against people who know how to stop them. Imagine what else you could do with those points.

Here's an alternative version, just as something to think about:

Librarian (Gate, Nullzone) - 100

Assault Terminators (10), 8 x TH/SS - 400
Dreadnought, 2 x TL-Autocannon - 125
Dreadnought, 2 x TL-Autocannon - 125

Tactical Marines (10), Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 220
Tactical Marines (10), Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 220
Tactical Marines (10), Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 220

Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50
Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50

Predator, Lascannon Sponsons - 120
Predator, Lascannon Sponsons - 120

Once again, Thanks for the replies. They really help.

@unbeliever87: I definately know what you mean with the LR. But I see a lot of people going for a Libby with gate, but I simply can't see the benefit of gating your assault termies all over the place. I am one of those players who are chronically cursed by the dice gods, so gating a group of assault termies close to a target, is probably gonna cost me a model (or worse) just by gating. And when they arrive, they can't assault until next turn, so I'm pretty much cannon fodder until then, and my experience tells me that if you shoot 3 shots at my termies, I will roll two 1's on my saves, let alone if 15 shots are fired at them.
If I'm going with assault termies, they stay in the can. Or is there some obvious tactic I'm failing to notice?

But I get what you mean with lack of synergy. WIth the two rifleman dreads, I was thinking about upgrading the preds to las, but lacked the points lest I sacrifice. And If I had to sacrifice the LR, I'd be more likely to sacrifice the termies, and keep a regular LR, and go with another HQ choice than a libby.

Any thoughts?

Agreed on the lascannons, I like that option.

The list looks solid, I'd like to pit my orks against it

Because TH/SS termies are awesome and a LR is one of the very few ways of getting your terminators into assault. Gating your terminators means they can't assault, you'll be opening them up to every single gun your opponent has and 10 terminators have a pretty large foot print, so good odds of mishaping, especially as you'll be trying to get close to something for your termies to hit.

Overall though I like your list, it has a good balance, lots of long range anti-tank, some melta, some flamers and a scary ass group of termies.

unbeliever87 wrote:As it stands it's a solid list. Light on long ranged anti-tank, and the units don't really synergise with eachother very well, but that's what happens when you sink 600 points into a single unit.

Why does every SM player feel the need for the Assault Terminator/Land Raider combination? I used to run a Deathstar likes this, but it fails against people who know how to stop them. Imagine what else you could do with those points.

Here's an alternative version, just as something to think about:

Librarian (Gate, Nullzone) - 100

Assault Terminators (10), 8 x TH/SS - 400
Dreadnought, 2 x TL-Autocannon - 125
Dreadnought, 2 x TL-Autocannon - 125

Tactical Marines (10), Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 220
Tactical Marines (10), Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 220
Tactical Marines (10), Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 220

Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50
Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50

Predator, Lascannon Sponsons - 120
Predator, Lascannon Sponsons - 120

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Taurinus wrote:Agreed on the lascannons, I like that option.

The list looks solid, I'd like to pit my orks against it

What sort of orks do you play? If its green tide I feel it'd crush face against against this list :-P

I totally agree with the lascannons... I have been contemplating how to upgrade the preds, without sacrificing something else important. So far, I have no idea...

Lol, fortunately AV14 isn't too common (also lascannons aren't great against it) the correct solution is side/rear armour (if not a land raider or monolith), melta if a land raider (and DCCW if monolith :-P). I'd be tempted to downgrade the preds to AC/HB and take another attack bike (or MM/MM or MM/HF land speeder), as if it is a landraider it'll be rushing towards you (except maybe the godhammer) in which case you'll probably be able to melta that sucka!

So the question stands.. I like unbeliever's list, but assault termies without a taxi is suicide, so how do we remedy this?

Do we leave out the termies all together for something else? An extra dread and Pred and something else? Or maybe shove the termies into a godhammer instead of a redeemer?

Well, you can use them on foot to guard tanks and stuff. You need full shields but they're big enough to give cover to a rhino or predator, I think. And who's going to assault them?

I've cleaned up my list a bit, and this is what I came up with.


Librarian (Terminator/SS) Null-zone+ Avenger 140

Tactical Squad [10] (MG/MM) + Rhino 210
Tactical Squad [10] (MG/MM) + Rhino 210
Tactical Squad [10] (MG/MM) + Rhino 210

Assault Terminator Squad [5] (3xLC, 2xTH/SS) 200
Land Raider Crusader (MM) 260

Dreadnought (2xTL-AC) 125
Dreadnought (2xTL-AC) 125

Attack Bike (MM) 50
Attack Bike (MM) 50

Predator (HB) 85
Predator (HB) 85

1750

But I will absolutely give Unbeliever's list a try, and see how each list fares. My only fear is that so many termies without transport will be slaughtered by fire before ever reaching anything, making them a very expensive bullet magnet.

My take on Unbeliever's list looks like this:

Librarian (TDA/SS, Avenger, Nullzone) - 140

Assault Terminators (9), 5 x LC, 4 x TH/SS - 360
Dreadnought, 2 x TL-Autocannon - 125
Dreadnought, 2 x TL-Autocannon - 125

Tactical Marines (10), Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 220
Tactical Marines (10), Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 220
Tactical Marines (10), Combi-Flamer, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 220

Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50
Attack Bike, Multi-Melta - 50

Predator, Lascannon Sponsons - 120
Predator, Lascannon Sponsons - 120

If the librarian needs to run with the termies, he needs terminator armor, and gating so many termies is a mishap waiting to happen.

Well that is basically the point of them. You want them to absorb high strength low AP weapons so your vehicles don't have to. If they made it into combat, that would be a bonus.

That seems like an expensive way to spend 400 points. That's a third of my army's points on something that might as well get shot down by a hail of small arms fire. If 30 boys start shooting, there's an awful big chance that too many 1's will come up on my saving throws... Especially since I'm cursed by the dice gods on a regular basis.

If the librarian needs to run with the termies, he needs terminator armor, and gating so many termies is a mishap waiting to happen.

Not at all. Leaving him in regular Power Armour opens up many different options for you.

You can still Gate with the Terminators.
You can put the Librarian in the Rhino to extend the Nullzone range.
You can separate from the Terminators before assaulting, which lets you sweeping advance.
The only thing you can't do in Power Armour is Deep Strike in normally, but you already have Gate, so why bother?
Oh, you also can't assign Plasma hits, etc, during wound allocation.

Gating with the Terminators is risky, but you can mitigate the risk if you choose the right place to DS. Choose a spot 10" away from the opponent (average scatter is 7"), don't be afraid of difficult/dangerous terrain. Once you land start the Terminator ring in a manner most advantegous to you, then run towards your opponent.

Like it or not, 10 Assault Terminators isn't easy for most opponents to deal with, and there aren't many units in the game that would be willing to assault them head on. Blocking as difficult when the unit has such a large footprint. Being multi-assaulted sucks (Orks boys, Blood Angels, etc), but that's where choosing the right place to scatter and starting the ring in the right place comes into play. Yes, it's risky, but Deep Striking 400 points worth of Terminators into your opponents face SHOULD be risky.

I like how people are questioning the purpose of the Terminators though. My sneaky ulterior motive here is to show that a well balanced SM list shouldn't need them.

unbeliever87 wrote:

I like how people are questioning the purpose of the Terminators though. My sneaky ulterior motive here is to show that a well balanced SM list shouldn't need them.

I switched my terminators to a cmd squad, 3/3+ with a fnp is still scary and i have i4 power weapons not i1

I switched my terminators to a cmd squad, 3/3+ with a fnp is still scary and i have i4 power weapons not i1

That's even worse. Not only are you paying more points per model by giving your command squad storm shields, you also lose any ability to hurt tanks or MC's. Not to mention you have to take a Captain to even get the Command Squad, which is yet another waste of points unless you're running a bike list.

Very stoked on this thread. I'm lurking and exalting especially considering I'm sick of my 2500 pt Kan Wall and looking to broaden my horizons into the green sherbert space marines (Salamanders) Any comments on trying to squeeze in Vulcan He'Stan for a Salamander theme? Seems like he'd be OK with this crew. Maybe change @unbeliever's assault bike / predator line up to free some points? Lurking... not hijacking... continue please! No comments needed unless you are so compelled.

Thanks folks,
Dr.G

You can still Gate with the Terminators.
You can put the Librarian in the Rhino to extend the Nullzone range.

Which Rhino? The other ones are full of tacs. And how excactly does this extending of powers work? Is it because you measure from the vehicle base?

You can separate from the Terminators before assaulting, which lets you sweeping advance.

It's been a while, so I'm not 100% on all the rules yet, but how would that work? Sweeping advances are made when a unit fails its morale check after loosing combat?!

The only thing you can't do in Power Armour is Deep Strike in normally, but you already have Gate, so why bother?
Oh, you also can't assign Plasma hits, etc, during wound allocation.

Again with the rusty rules. Why can't I assign plasma hits? If he's part of the unit, he gets a hit if there are enough wounds to allocate to each model. If he's detached, then he counts as a single unit and is hit if the template even touches him.

Gating with the Terminators is risky, but you can mitigate the risk if you choose the right place to DS. Choose a spot 10" away from the opponent (average scatter is 7"), don't be afraid of difficult/dangerous terrain. Once you land start the Terminator ring in a manner most advantegous to you, then run towards your opponent.

IMO it's too risky. Hitting terrain (which I'm 98% sure of doing) will reduce or kill the entire unit, and what is left, is 80% sure of being shot down violently in my opponents next turn, before I have a chance to move them. I fail to see the viability in this strategy.

Like it or not, 10 Assault Terminators isn't easy for most opponents to deal with, and there aren't many units in the game that would be willing to assault them head on. Blocking as difficult when the unit has such a large footprint. Being multi-assaulted sucks (Orks boys, Blood Angels, etc), but that's where choosing the right place to scatter and starting the ring in the right place comes into play. Yes, it's risky, but Deep Striking 400 points worth of Terminators into your opponents face SHOULD be risky.

I like how people are questioning the purpose of the Terminators though. My sneaky ulterior motive here is to show that a well balanced SM list shouldn't need them.

And they look scary as hell too
But as you said, it SHOULD be risky. It is risky. The question is; is it a calculated risk worth taking? My answer is no. I try to maximize offensive capabilities in my army, and wasting 400 points on a unit that has more than 70% chance of being destroyed before they have a chance at getting a single blow, seems like a waste.
So yeah, I get your sneaky ulterior motive
I'd rather field another rifledread, a pred and something else for those points (the question then remains what HQ to take) and @doktor_g's idea about Vulkan might be worth looking into. But if I ran with Vulkan, I'd probably drop the rifledreads and preds for more melta/flamer goodness to capitalize on his re-roll.

But to be honest, My old list (the one I got my arse handed to me with) had 2 LR and 2 5xAT squads, and the thought of retiring such a large part of my model base is like asking a kid to give up his favorite teddybear... Completely irrational if you want to win (and I do!) So I guess the question now is...

If I drop the LR and AT, what HQ and other goodness can we squeeze into the list (and the first one to say landspeeders gets a slap with a wet paper towel! I prefer Attack Bikes.)

Maybe Shrike to infiltrate with the termieS?

Wrong on almost every account.

PedaGak wrote:

You can still Gate with the Terminators.
You can put the Librarian in the Rhino to extend the Nullzone range.

Which Rhino? The other ones are full of tacs. And how excactly does this extending of powers work? Is it because you measure from the vehicle base?

The ones that are only half full, because of Combat Squadding. There is almost no reason to keep the unit together. Yes, the Rhino hull extends the Nullzone range about 2 inches all the way around.

PedaGak wrote:

You can separate from the Terminators before assaulting, which lets you sweeping advance.

It's been a while, so I'm not 100% on all the rules yet, but how would that work? Sweeping advances are made when a unit fails its morale check after loosing combat?!

As in, you separate the Librarian from the Terminators during the movement phase, then assault the same thing (making sure to not put him into B2B with a Powerfist). This also gives you two chances of making it into assault range when assaulting through terrain, ie, the Librarian rolls his 3d6 and the Terminator roll their 2d6 separately.

PedaGak wrote:

The only thing you can't do in Power Armour is Deep Strike in normally, but you already have Gate, so why bother?
Oh, you also can't assign Plasma hits, etc, during wound allocation.

Again with the rusty rules. Why can't I assign plasma hits? If he's part of the unit, he gets a hit if there are enough wounds to allocate to each model. If he's detached, then he counts as a single unit and is hit if the template even touches him.

Well, technically you still can, but without that 3++ it's probably not a good idea.

PedaGak wrote:

Gating with the Terminators is risky, but you can mitigate the risk if you choose the right place to DS. Choose a spot 10" away from the opponent (average scatter is 7"), don't be afraid of difficult/dangerous terrain. Once you land start the Terminator ring in a manner most advantegous to you, then run towards your opponent.

IMO it's too risky. Hitting terrain (which I'm 98% sure of doing) will reduce or kill the entire unit, and what is left, is 80% sure of being shot down violently in my opponents next turn, before I have a chance to move them. I fail to see the viability in this strategy.

Read the Deep Strike rules again. You only go to the mishap table if you hit impassible terrain(including other models), and you only take a wound from difficult/dangerous terrain if the model rolls a 1, and even then you have a 3++ to save that wound.

Solid unit choices, his bikes can do a decent job at hunting av14.

I stand corrected. Thank you @unbeliever. I'll give it a try next battle. You argye a good point.

PedaGak wrote: Or maybe shove the termies into a godhammer instead of a redeemer?

I definitely reccomend not using a godhammer over a redeemer/crusader, there's a massive temptation to play it as a shooty tank rather than a terminator delievery system, and the weapons loadout isn't actually that great (particularly given cover, vehicles being more surviable, etc)

doktor_g wrote:Very stoked on this thread. I'm lurking and exalting especially considering I'm sick of my 2500 pt Kan Wall and looking to broaden my horizons into the green sherbert space marines (Salamanders) Any comments on trying to squeeze in Vulcan He'Stan for a Salamander theme? Seems like he'd be OK with this crew. Maybe change @unbeliever's assault bike / predator line up to free some points? Lurking... not hijacking... continue please! No comments needed unless you are so compelled.

Thanks folks,
Dr.G

StarCraftKing wrote:Maybe Shrike to infiltrate with the termieS?

Very amused by these two, shrike and vulcan don't really fit into this list particularly well (not enough melta/flamers and not enough assaulty stuff) and there are other ways to run a C:SM list guys :-P

unbeliever87 wrote:Wrong on almost every account.

PedaGak wrote:

You can still Gate with the Terminators.
You can put the Librarian in the Rhino to extend the Nullzone range.

Which Rhino? The other ones are full of tacs. And how excactly does this extending of powers work? Is it because you measure from the vehicle base?

The ones that are only half full, because of Combat Squadding. There is almost no reason to keep the unit together. Yes, the Rhino hull extends the Nullzone range about 2 inches all the way around.

and you can cast null zone even if said rhino has moved 12"

Also I would reccomend taking all TH/SS termies rather than any LC as 3++ is awesome (makes them crazy durable) and they hit so much harder in CC .
Just my £0.02