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When allocating wounds, I know that identical models are treated as a group when taking casualties, but what about the sergeant? Deathwing in particular.

In a typical squad that I run, I have 2 models with Thunderhammers and storm shields, and 3 with a pair of lightning claws. To me, the sergeant has the same statistics as any other member of the unit so it really doesn't matter which model he is. And yet people that I play against always force me to treat him seperately for wound allocation. This just seems that it gives the rest of the unit a greater chance to survive as more wounds are being put on a model that is in pretty much all respect the same as any other model in the unit.

Is the sergeant treated as a seperate model in the unit even if his stats and wargear are identical t other members of the squad? Or are his wounds just put in with the other models that are the same as him?

Name is included in profiles and differentiates models.

Have a quick search, there are two opposiing camps.

I'm the "the sarge is a distinct model" camp, because the name has to be part of the characteristics in order to distinguish one model from another.

Yea, the Sergeant is a different group, even though he has the same gear and stats. Good for us

I would make him roll his own dice. Since if you allocate a wound to him and he dies, the group will have a lower LD check.

Edit: Same for any model with a special weapon. I.E. PF or the like.

Not for Terminators, everyone has the same Ld as they are all vets

kirsanth wrote:Name is included in profiles and differentiates models.

The name is not a part of the Profile of characteristics, so they are not different models.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I'm the "the sarge is a distinct model" camp, because the name has to be part of the characteristics in order to distinguish one model from another.

The name is not a part of the characteristics, We can even prove that characteristics are what make up a profile. It cannot be proved that the name is part of the profile.

However there are people who do not agree with this.

Discussed here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/352524.page#2549430

It has also been proven that the game is a nonsense if you dont include names. Absurd results abound

nosferatu1001 wrote:It has also been proven that the game is a nonsense if you dont include names. Absurd results abound

Sure, but the name is not included for the purposes of wound allocation. As per the way the rules are laid out.

Names are part of the profile, but they are not a part of the Profile of characteristics, since we are told what the 9 characteristics are, and names are not among them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I'm the "the sarge is a distinct model" camp, because the name has to be part of the characteristics in order to distinguish one model from another.

The other argument (simply for completeness and I don't think DeathReaper has done a good job of explaining it) is:

The rulebook specifies what you should consider to determine whether models are different for purposes of wound allocation. Name is not one of them.

My position is that if all of the models are identical in game terms, you should roll all of the saves for the unit at once.

biccat wrote:
My position is that if all of the models are identical in game terms, you should roll all of the saves for the unit at once.

Good position, and since the Sergeant has his own profile line in the codex, he is different from regular marines, even if all factors other than the name are the same. He does not have the "same profile of characteristics" as there is a difference between his profile line and their profile line. And that's all that is required.

Same profile of characteristics is not the same as having the same values listed in the profile of characteristics.

3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6 6+ is a list of values.

Find a profile without a name and you may have a counter point. More likely you have a typo or a truncated quote. . .but there it is.

DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It has also been proven that the game is a nonsense if you dont include names. Absurd results abound

Sure, but the name is not included for the purposes of wound allocation. As per the way the rules are laid out.

Names are part of the profile, but they are not a part of the Profile of characteristics, since we are told what the 9 characteristics are, and names are not among them.

Theyre not the same, as there are two lines there - one for each. If they were the SAME, as in the same as the other 4 guys, then there would only be 1 profile line

don_mondo wrote:

biccat wrote:
My position is that if all of the models are identical in game terms, you should roll all of the saves for the unit at once.

Good position, and since the Sergeant has his own profile line in the codex, he is different from regular marines, even if all factors other than the name are the same. He does not have the "same profile of characteristics" as there is a difference between his profile line and their profile line. And that's all that is required.

P.25 under complex units:
"... Identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."

No, he has be Identical in gaming terms, meaning they need "the same profile of characteristics". He does not SHARE "the same profile of characteristics", but he has "the same profile of characteristics".

It says they need to have" the same profile of characteristics".

It does not say they need to share "the same profile of characteristics".

Same, in this instance, means Identical. It does not mean shared.

"The same" meaning "the same"

A terminator sarge and terminator unit do NOT have "the same" profile of characteristics. You are changing words to suit your artgument, again.

DeathReaper wrote:
Same, in this instance, means Identical. It does not mean shared.

And they aren't identical, are they? One says Sergeant, the other doesn't.

See also, page xii.
Model Profiles.

Note that the name is listed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"The same" meaning "the same"

A terminator sarge and terminator unit do NOT have "the same" profile of characteristics. You are changing words to suit your artgument, again.

If that were true they would need the same weapons and wargear as well.

Do they have Shared weapons and wargear, or Identical weapons and wargear?

The same applies for the profile of characteristics. as long as they have identical characteristics, they are one group for wound allocation.

A profile is made up of characteristics and the characteristics are listed, no where do I see "Unit name" as one of the characteristics, so with the permissive ruleset we can not include the name in the profile since we are given no permission to do so.
P.6 lists what Characteristics are (WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv)

P.6 "To represent the different abilities of these creatures in the game, each model has a profile made up of nine numbers that describe the various aspects of their physical and mental make-up. These are called characteristics."

We know that "each model has a profile made up of nine numbers" (Not names for the purpose of being the same)

P.7 "Each model in warhammer 40k has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics"

P.25 under complex units:
"... Identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."

It asks that they have the same profile of characteristics, In this case the profile of characteristics are the same.

DeathReaper wrote:
It asks that they have the same profile of characteristics, In this case the profile of characteristics are the same.

Except they're not..............

DR - and, again you are adding / changing words to fit your argument.

they have to have the "same (profile of characteristics)"

They dont. They have different ones that contain the same numbers. That does not make them the same - it makes them SIMILAR, from a mathematical sense, but it doesnt make them the same

However we're back agsint the brick wall again, same as last time. Your reading, by changing the words, supports your view point.

Then answer my question:

Do they have Shared weapons and wargear, or Identical weapons and wargear?

- Off-topic image removed by insaniak. Let's not try to make this personal, hmm? -


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was on his side power hungry mod. It was a picture of spock saying something about logic. I didnt say your mum's logical. I agree with Death reaper, and was saying that he argues with logic.

Let me make sure I have this correct...

I have a squad of 10 normal Chaos Space Marines. One of these is named "Aspiring Champion" and he has slightly different characteristics. I also give him slightly different wargear - say, a powerfist.

Within the remaining 9 members of the unit, 6 of them are IDENTICAL in the sense that they have the same characteristics and the same wargear.

That leaves 3 models. 2 of these models have flamers instead of bolters. The final model has all the same wargear as the previous 6 EXCEPT he is carrying a Chaos Icon.

During a game, this unit of 10 models receives 10 wounds in a single shooting phase, but has not yet rolled their armor saves.

So, my question (and I think the point of this thread) is how are the wounds allocated/saves rolled? Here are the options, and this is where I am confused:

Options

1) All 10 saves are rolled at the same time, before allocating a specific save to a specific model. If 4 saves are failed, the wounds are THEN allocated to the models of the controlling player's choosing. Obviously, the player is not going to choose the champion or the guy with the Icon.

2) 6 saves are rolled separately for the normal marines. 2 saves are rolled separately for the flamer guys. 1 is rolled separately for the Champion, and 1 is rolled separately for the Icon bearer.

Which is correct?

1) You allocate one wound to all models before allocating another. In this case every model gets one wound assigned

2) You then group wounds into identical groups - so the 6 normal guys have a pool of 6 wounds to make svaes from.

Essentially your number 2, you just need to note the grouping - you dont roll one guy at a time, as you see how many of that group suffer an unsaved wound, and can then choose which models are removed.

This has nothing to do with this thread, however.

DR - they have the same weapons and wargear. Again, stop changing the wording to support your argument, it undermines it something chronic

Ok, what if there are only 9 wounds instead of 10? Would I still roll a separate save for, say, the guy with an Icon (but otherwise identical wargear)?

Yes, as the ICon bearer does NOT have the same wargear. That is enough to make him a separate unit within the squad

Deathshead420 wrote:I was on his side power hungry mod. It was a picture of spock saying something about logic. I didnt say your mum's logical. I agree with Death reaper, and was saying that he argues with logic.

Fine. I can change the in-thread warning to a suspension for posting spam, if you would prefer?

Thanks!

don_mondo wrote:Good position, and since the Sergeant has his own profile line in the codex, he is different from regular marines, even if all factors other than the name are the same. He does not have the "same profile of characteristics" as there is a difference between his profile line and their profile line. And that's all that is required.

Well, you go ahead and adhere to your position. I think it's wrong, and I have a strong rules-based argument to support that position.

You do too, FYI.

But during a game, if a unit of 5 suffered 9 wounds, I would object to my opponent rolling 8 saves for 4 models and 1 save for the sergeant. Especially if it were from AP1 or 2 weapons.

For non-AP1-2 weapons there's less than a 1% chance of wiping out the unit (.5% with allocation, .8% without), so allocation will have a negligible effect. With AP1-2 weapons (or power weapons), the odds of wiping out the squad changes significantly. Without allocation, AP1-2 weapons will wipe out the squad 85% of the time. With allocation, you will only wipe out the squad 60% of the time. That's a substantial difference that could affect the game result, IMO.

don_mondo wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Same, in this instance, means Identical. It does not mean shared.

And they aren't identical, are they? One says Sergeant, the other doesn't.

Exactly.