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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 02:43:00
Subject: Re:Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Cataphract
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I think that the name serves as an identifier for the profile of characteristics, not a characteristic of the profile.
I also think that the main reason that the wound allocation rules are as they are in ed. 5 is so that models that could impact the game differently due to having different gear, rules or characteristic values from their unit are all represented when their unit suffers enough wounds. Since the sergeant has no different impact to the game from any other member of the squad of terminators that the intent (as I assume it is intended) is not applicable.
I did notice that the INAT unofficial FAQ has ruled on this exact question. I didn't know that models can be specifically targeted by their names, and if that is true then that would make anything with a different name from the rest of its unit have a potential different impact to the game simply due to it having a different name. I need to learn more about what can target something specifically by its name, but if so, that could sway me to change my stance.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 02:44:17
"The earth shakes as they come, and I doubt any creature alive can withstand the full impact of their weight." Chief Madrak Ironhide |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 03:16:14
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Dracheous wrote: But a "Space Marine" is not an "Ork Boy", so you must admit that there IS a challenge that the name IS a characteristic of the model. Just the same as a Medusa is not a Basilisk etc etc. I'm not sold yet on which way is the right answer, and think this might be something that should be addressed by FAQ. But, there is a very logical argument that a models name is in fact a genuine article of definition of models in a squad. To place 5 space marines on the table you MUST have one Sargent, the codex dictates this; therefor one model is essentially different by definition of the codex itself.
Being "essentially different by definition of the codex itself." does not matter to the BRB, it onl;y cares about characteristics, weapons, wargear, and special rules being identical. The Characteristics are Listed on P.6 It tells us what the 9 characteristics are. I will list them. Weapon Skill ( WS) Balistic Skill ( BS) Strength (S) Toughness (T) Wounds (W) Initiative (I) Attacks (A) Leadership ( Ld) Armor Save ( Sv) It even goes on to say "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively, by adding to it (+1, +2 etc) or even multiplying it (x2, x3, etc.) However no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it to below 0." Now, if the name "IS a characteristic of the model" as you say, how can you modify it by +1? and how can it be maxed at 10 or reduced to 0? The name is there for reference and is not a characteristic value.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 03:17:25
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 03:48:27
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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This is being argued from the wrong angle. Forget about the characteristics, they mean little in this arguement. Look at profiles within each codex. Example being discussed and the OP question involving... Deathwing Sgt.
Wound allocation is done by spreading wounds evenly among figures within squad, different profiles break this down further.
Per Dark Angels codex, Deathwing terminators have a profile line and the Deathwing terminator Sgt has his own. With those facts, you have 2 profiles! You spread wounds evenly amongst remaining models. If the squad has a heavy weapon, the profiles increase to 3. A full Deathwing squad has a potential of 5 profiles, as they can each be armed differently.
With that said, I play my Deathwing Sgt armed with TH/SS as a seperate profile than the regular TH/SS terminator within his squad.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 03:50:52
2012 tourney record:
Eldar 18W-2L-5D Overall x4
Deathwing 21W-7L-6D Overall x4 Best General x1 Best Appearance x3, 19th place Adepticon 40k Champs.
Space Wolves 2W-0L-1D Best Painted x1
Armies:
1850+ pts. 3000+ pts. 2000+
40k bits go to my ebay... http://stores.shop.ebay.com/K-K-Gaming-and-Bits |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 04:38:46
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Kreedos wrote:This is a little much Insaniak. Threatening a suspension for spam when there is none?
Posting just an image as a thread response is just as much spam as a '+1' post. It's nothing to do with being 'power-hungry' ... the rule is there simply to encourage people to take the time to write an actual response if they wish to contribute to the thread.
And the middle of a thread is the wrong place to debate forum moderation. Particularly if you're going to be rude about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
[quote=insaniakIf any part of the Profile of characteristics is different, which are the values of the characteristics,...
This is a distinction that you are making up out of whole cloth. If the names are different, the profiles are different... because they are not the same.
The profile would include the name but the profile of characteristics would not, as I have shown.
The profile of characteristics is the profile. On account of the profile including a bunch of characteristics.
AGain, you're creating a distinction where none actually exists.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/30 04:43:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 05:18:04
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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The Profile of characteristics is a thing I can prove as being 9 numbers."each model has a profile made up of nine numbers...These are called characteristics."" This is what a profile of characteristics consists of.
Names can not be proven to be a part of the Profile of characteristics for being identical in gaming terms.
P.6 "To represent the different abilities of these creatures in the game, each model has a profile made up of nine numbers that describe the various aspects of their physical and mental make-up. These are called characteristics."(No mention of name)
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 05:36:43
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Drop the characteristic debate. I don't refute they have the same 9 stats. Codex profiles show basic terminator has it's profile and Sgt terminator has it's own. Same exact numbers, but on 2 different lines.
The DW sgt and the other 4 termies have 2 profiles. This IS what allows the sgt to be rolled seperately.
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2012 tourney record:
Eldar 18W-2L-5D Overall x4
Deathwing 21W-7L-6D Overall x4 Best General x1 Best Appearance x3, 19th place Adepticon 40k Champs.
Space Wolves 2W-0L-1D Best Painted x1
Armies:
1850+ pts. 3000+ pts. 2000+
40k bits go to my ebay... http://stores.shop.ebay.com/K-K-Gaming-and-Bits |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 05:41:56
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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DeathReaper wrote:
It even goes on to say "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively, by adding to it (+1, +2 etc) or even multiplying it (x2, x3, etc.) However no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it to below 0."
Now, if the name "IS a characteristic of the model" as you say, how can you modify it by +1? and how can it be maxed at 10 or reduced to 0?
The name is there for reference and is not a characteristic value.
Answer one question before continuing; CAN you have a Terminator Squad with out a Terminator Sargent?
If names are not "important" why bother naming any of them? As I said, a Space Marine is not an Ork Boy; but seeing as name is not a characteristic I suppose I could run my Space Marines as Ork Boy's  .
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"Of course I have, have you ever tried going insane with out power? It sucks! Nobody listens to you." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 05:55:11
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Dracheous wrote:Answer one question before continuing; CAN you have a Terminator Squad with out a Terminator Sargent?
In gaming terms yes, since they are functionally Identical to the gameplay. When purchased they are 5 identical models, one with a different name. Dracheous wrote:If names are not "important" why bother naming any of them? As I said, a Space Marine is not an Ork Boy; but seeing as name is not a characteristic I suppose I could run my Space Marines as Ork Boy's  .
Call them whatever you want. Call them Super-human un-killable green killing machines that regenerate, as long as you do not change their profile there is no issue as they will interact with the game in the exact same way as before you changed their name. Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Drop the characteristic debate. I don't refute they have the same 9 stats. Codex profiles show basic terminator has it's profile and Sgt terminator has it's own. Same exact numbers, but on 2 different lines. The DW sgt and the other 4 termies have 2 profiles. This IS what allows the sgt to be rolled seperately.
P.25 under complex units: "... Identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear." It only asks that the Profile of Characteristics be the same (This means Identical due to the previous paragraph) 2 different Profile of Characteristics can be Identical. "A 'profile' by definition is a set of characteristics, and while a name can certainly be considered a characteristic, it definitely isn't defined as one in the case of a 40K profile. So by definition alone, we know that the name is not part of the profile (as a 'profile' is a set of characteristics and 'name' is not a listed characteristic)."[Yakface said this in a previous thread]
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 05:59:16
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 05:58:51
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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DeathReaper wrote:Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Drop the characteristic debate. I don't refute they have the same 9 stats. Codex profiles show basic terminator has it's profile and Sgt terminator has it's own. Same exact numbers, but on 2 different lines.
The DW sgt and the other 4 termies have 2 profiles. This IS what allows the sgt to be rolled seperately.
P.25 under complex units:
"... Identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."
It only asks that the Profile of Characteristics be the same (This means Identical due to the previous paragraph)
2 different Profile of Characteristics can be Identical.
"A 'profile' by definition is a set of characteristics, and while a name can certainly be considered a characteristic, it definitely isn't defined as one in the case of a 40K profile. So by definition alone, we know that the name is not part of the profile (as a 'profile' is a set of characteristics and 'name' is not a listed characteristic)."[Yakface said this in a previous thread]
Uh huh, want to read Pg. 7 again?
Pg.7"Characteristic Profiles wrote: Each model has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics.
A "Sargent Terminator" is not a "Terminator", it has its own listing. A terminator squad can not be placed on the table with out a Sargent; please reference Pg. 136 for "Sargent Terminator" Characteristic profile.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 05:59:25
"Of course I have, have you ever tried going insane with out power? It sucks! Nobody listens to you." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:01:56
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Want to give me proof that the name is included in the Profile of Characteristics?
you can't, it is not there.
No matter what you call them you have 5 models with identical profile characteristics, weapons, wargear, and special rules on the table.
A profile, by definition is a set of characteristics.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:03:45
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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DeathReaper wrote:Want to give me proof that the name is included in the Profile of Characteristics?
you can't, it is not there.
No matter what you call them you have 5 models with identical profile characteristics, weapons, wargear, and special rules on the table.
A profile, by definition is a set of characteristics.
So you are not placing a Sargent model in your squad?
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"Of course I have, have you ever tried going insane with out power? It sucks! Nobody listens to you." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:06:02
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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Ok enough with this.
If the squad of terminators was all Sargent, then yes it wouldn't matter. However if the unit clearly has two listings, such as terminators, and then terminator sargent, it's a different model for purposes of wound allocation.
So in a squad of 5 you have:
Terminator
Terminator
Terminator
Terminator
Terminator Sargent.
As opposed to:
Terminator
Terminator
Terminator
Terminator
Terminator
Or even:
Terminator Sargent
Terminator Sargent
Terminator Sargent
Terminator Sargent
Terminator Sargent
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:07:59
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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What I am saying is that it does not matter what the model is called. What matters is that the models are "Identical in gaming terms" I.E. if the models have the same weapon skill Ballistic skill etc. then they are "Identical in gaming terms" Regardless of what they are called. juraigamer wrote:...If the squad of terminators was all Sargent, then yes it wouldn't matter. However if the unit clearly has two listings, such as terminators, and then terminator sargent, it's a different model for purposes of wound allocation. Incorrect. those models you listed are all "Identical in gaming terms"
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 06:09:04
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:12:59
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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DeathReaper wrote:What I am saying is that it does not matter what the model is called.
What matters is that the models are "Identical in gaming terms"
I.E. if the models have the same weapon skill Ballistic skill etc. then they are "Identical in gaming terms" Regardless of what they are called.
juraigamer wrote:...If the squad of terminators was all Sargent, then yes it wouldn't matter. However if the unit clearly has two listings, such as terminators, and then terminator sargent, it's a different model for purposes of wound allocation.
Incorrect. those models you listed are all "Identical in gaming terms"
But you're not reading Pg.7, here I'll show ya one more time:
Pg.7"Characteristic Profiles wrote: Each model has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics.
It states that each MODEL, not each "squad", when you go to the Codex you require 4 Terminators and 1 Sargent Terminator for a squad to be placed on the table; you are able to include an addition "5 Terminators" but there is no allocation for any more "Sargent Terminators" because you're only allowed ONE. And that model has its own characteristic profile
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"Of course I have, have you ever tried going insane with out power? It sucks! Nobody listens to you." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:18:27
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Dracheous wrote: But you're not reading Pg.7, here I'll show ya one more time: Pg.7"Characteristic Profiles wrote: Each model has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics. It states that each MODEL, not each "squad", when you go to the Codex you require 4 Terminators and 1 Sargent Terminator for a squad to be placed on the table; you are able to include an addition "5 Terminators" but there is no allocation for any more "Sargent Terminators" because you're only allowed ONE. And that model has its own characteristic profile It can have its own characteristic profile, P. 25 cares only if that characteristic profile is Identical to the rest of his unit. (the do not have to share a profile, they have to have Identical profiles) Since the Assault terminator and Assault terminator sergeant have Identical characteristic profiles they are the same wound group. and I am reading P.7, I have read it many times.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 06:19:22
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:20:49
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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DeathReaper wrote:What I am saying is that it does not matter what the model is called.
And what you're being told is that of course it matters what the model is called. The name is what you use to distinguish one profile from another. So if two profiles have different names, they're clearly not the same profile.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:What matters is that the models are "Identical in gaming terms"
If the models have different profiles, they are clearly not identical in gaming terms. Because if they were, they wouldn't have a separate profile. You would just have a fluff description stating that the squad consists of a sergeant and 4 terminators, and the profile would just read 'Terminator'...
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/09/30 06:24:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:25:09
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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DeathReaper wrote:
It can have its own characteristic profile, P. 25 cares only if that characteristic profile is Identical to the rest of his unit. (the do not have to share a profile, they have to have Identical profiles)
Since the Assault terminator and Assault terminator sergeant have Identical characteristic profiles they are the same wound group.
and I am reading P.7, I have read it many times.
Pg.25 wrote: This Space Marine Devastator combat squad consists of five models: two Space Marines armed with bolters, two armed with missile launchers and one Veteran Sergeant (who has a different profile and wargear from the rest of the squad)
Pg.25 even states that the Sergeant is different from the Space Marines both in profile AND war gear. Yes, in a Dev Squad, the Sergeant has one more attack and 9 Ld. However it does not state "different characteristics", it states "different profile". The Terminator Sergeant has his OWN "profile" right there in the Codex as well; and he is REQUIRED for a squad.
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"Of course I have, have you ever tried going insane with out power? It sucks! Nobody listens to you." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:26:32
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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I know they are not the same profile, but they are "Identical in gaming terms" look at the quote from P.25, it establishes that The same means Identical in the context of that sentence. P.25 under complex units: "... Identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear." The same means Identical in this case, so they do not have to share a profile, they only need identical. In the context of that passage on P.25 this question arises: To be the same wound group would they need Shared weapons and wargear, or Identical weapons and wargear?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 06:27:11
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:32:35
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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DeathReaper wrote:I know they are not the same profile, but they are "Identical in gaming terms"
look at the quote from P.25, it establishes that The same means Identical in the context of that sentence.
P.25 under complex units:
"... Identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."
The same means Identical in this case, so they do not have to share a profile, they only need identical.
In the context of that passage on P.25 this question arises:
To be the same wound group would they need Shared weapons and wargear, or Identical weapons and wargear?
That's the part you're missing; a Sergeant Terminator and Terminator do NOT have the "same" profile, they EACH have their own. Just because they're the same does not eliminate the REQUIREMENT of ONE model to represent the Sergeant Terminator in the squad, who has his OWN profile.
Sweet Mary 'n Joseph boy, the feth so hard to grasp here? Mods excuse my lapse in ability to contain the damned language... but dude look at what YOU just said yourself and KEEPING IT QUOTED HERE  and capped.
"I know they're not the SAME profile... but the book here says if you HAVE the SAME profile..."
what?!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 06:34:29
"Of course I have, have you ever tried going insane with out power? It sucks! Nobody listens to you." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:40:15
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Dracheous, Look at the context. The same profile of characteristics does not mean they need to share a profile. This is what you are suggesting. But the rules actually tell us that the profiles need only to be Identical in gaming terms. they need Identical profiles, they do not need to share a profile. Subtle but important difference. (Remember the same can mean shared, or it can mean Identical, I think this distinction is where you are getting confused).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/30 06:41:43
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:42:41
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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DeathReaper wrote:Dracheous, Look at the context.
The same profile of characteristics does not mean they need to share a profile. This is what you are suggesting.
But the rules actually tell us that the profiles need only to be Identical in gaming terms.
they need Identical profiles, they do not need to share a profile.
Subtle but important difference.
No, the rules tell you that each model has its own profile, the rules tell you that a Sergeant Terminator is not a Terminator; the rules TELL you that for allocating wounds to models they must have the same: profile, wargear, weapons, AND special rules to be grouped together. A Sergeant has his OWN profile and is not a Terminator profile, thus different, AS the same page states that Sergeants have a "different profile" ((not "different characteristics)).
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"Of course I have, have you ever tried going insane with out power? It sucks! Nobody listens to you." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:44:56
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Answer me this Drac:
To be the same wound group would they need Shared weapons and wargear, or Identical weapons and wargear?
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:51:50
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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DeathReaper wrote:Answer me this Drac:
To be the same wound group would they need Shared weapons and wargear, or Identical weapons and wargear?
Pg.25 wrote:we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules, and the same weapons and wargear.
If the models have the same weapons and wargear ((as well as same profile of characteristics <- this is the part that is NOT the same for the Sergeant, he has his own, AND same special rules.))
Look this "shared weapons" thing, are you referring to something like an heavy weapons team? ((ie. guard)), because that arguments not sinking in here as such weapons are part of ONE model. Generally one model with multiple wounds. "Shared Weapons" don't even show up in the weapons type/profiles starting on Pg.27.
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"Of course I have, have you ever tried going insane with out power? It sucks! Nobody listens to you." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:54:56
Subject: Re:Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I don't have the SM codex, but I do have a question from it. Devastator Squads: Does the Sarge have a different profile? I ask because under Allocating wounds on complex units, pg 25 BRB: "...one Veteran Sergeant (who has a different profile and wargear...)"
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 06:58:04
Subject: Re:Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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Happyjew wrote:I don't have the SM codex, but I do have a question from it. Devastator Squads: Does the Sarge have a different profile? I ask because under Allocating wounds on complex units, pg 25 BRB: "...one Veteran Sergeant (who has a different profile and wargear...)"
He has his own profile with his own characteristics. The argument is not about the numbers being the same or different, its that he has his own listed profile which makes it different from the standard Space Marines in his squad; this is shown by the codex requiring a model in his place for the unit to be on the table. But yes, his characteristics are similar but has change from Space Marines. Again though, he is not himself a Space Marine ((or a Devastator)).
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"Of course I have, have you ever tried going insane with out power? It sucks! Nobody listens to you." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 07:59:31
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Youre making a number of logical errors, DR, as usual.
Youre assuming that "is made up" is actually saying "is only made up of", which is one error.
Its also the only one that counts. They are not the same profile, but similar profiles, so they ARE different.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 09:18:12
Subject: Re:Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he purchased as a Sgt in the unit cost?
That would make him a separate model than the rest, that's a pretty straight forward reason by itself. Having the same stats and wargear, does not the same profile make. This is actually a pretty easy call, I think you're complicating it for yourself DR
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/30 09:20:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 10:19:38
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Heroic Senior Officer
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DeathReaper wrote:Want to give me proof that the name is included in the Profile of Characteristics?
you can't, it is not there.
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Look in the codex. Is there a name at the beginning of the profile. Yes. There's your proof.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/30 10:20:32
Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 12:29:51
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Question:
If I buy 2 Chaos Lords and equip them similarly (say a powerfist and bolter) and attach them both to a unit of 5 Chaos Marines (no Aspiring Champion), how would you resolve it when the unit receives 12 wounds?
A)
10 wounds to marines.
1 wound to Chaos Lord #1.
1 wound to Chaos Lord #2.
Or:
B)
10 wounds to marines.
2 wounds to Chaos Lords.
Do the Chaos Lords have the "same profile of characteristics" for purposes of wound allocation?
What if one of the Lords has only 1 wound remaining while the other Lord has 3 wounds remaining; do they still share the "same profile of characteristics"?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/30 12:40:14
Subject: Wound Allocation on Sergeants
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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They have the same profile, so are a single group for wound allocation.
The number of wounds you have currently does not alter your profile.
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