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I played in tourney last weekend. IG player brought a Vendetta in via Outflank. He moved it on with just the flyer base fully on table. I explained that the footprint of vehicle needed to be on fully. Also, mentioning that for full footprint to be on table, it would be moving at least 7-9" , thus only being able to fire 1 heavy weapon. Judge/store manager was called over to make ruling, he decided that the base needed to be on and rest of vehicle didn't matter. I said, full footprint of vehicle needs to be on table. He then said wings and hull needed to be on, but tail not necessary and wouldn't be counted as hull or wing. This led to the vehicle being on table 9". I didn't press issue as we were up against time for round being up. I followed with this on our Facebook 40k group...

Pg 71 Main Rule Book

Measuring distances:

Unlike other vehicles skimmers have a transparent 'flying base' under their hull. As normal for vehicles distances are measured to and from the vehicle's hull, with the exceptions of the vehicles weapons, access points and fire points, which work as normal. The skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer, in which case models may move into contact with the vehicle's hull, base or both'

Main Rule book FAQ

Q: Are a vehicle’s wings considered to be part of its
hull? (p60)
A: Yes.

That being said, you use the hull for moving purposes. The base is for having a contact point to assault in assault phase. As sometimes physically touching a skimmer hull is not possible.

Furthermore,

Main Rule Book FAQ(Last 2 versions at least)
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!

Moving hull to a point where it is off the table, even if it is just the wing, is disallowed in that tidbit up there. Nowhere does it say that the model being in contact with the table is all that is needed for it to be legal. The only restriction they use is 'the edge of the table', so anything past that edge is beyond 'the edge of the world' and not fully in the play area, so it is destroyed.

Moving a vehicle to be in a position where it's hull is past the edge of the table would be illegal. Moving on from reserve is still movement, so not coming on fully is illegal. The base is irrelevant here.

Which led to the manager of my FLGS store sending the question in, How do you move a Vendetta in from reserve?

(Manager's words)
Large Flying Oval Bases, edge of the board, and moving on from reserves - I had my GW rep pass this question up the corporate ladder (let's face it - sales reps aren't the best source for rulings). He got the following response back. I am not sure what the name attached to this ruling is; He said he sent it to the design team and this is what he got back.

For vehicles with large oval flying bases, use the base to determine whether or not the vehicle is on the table or not. A vehicle on a large flying base can move six inches onto the board so that it can fire all weapons. This should be considered the same as using the base to determine if the model is in terrain or on enemy/friendly models. Note that if the vehicle is turned so that a weapon is hanging off the edge of the board, that weapon should not be allowed to fire.

How do you play it?

Discuss

The vehicle's hull cannot be off the board, if this is the case, then the vehicle counts as destroyed.

I know why this happens, players with these large flyers want to come in an shoot all their guns, this sparks the debate.

The rulebook FAQ is clear on this matter, and this issue has come up quite a lot. There is no "how do you play it?" there is only the one correct way.

I'm with you, but where does it specifically say footprint needs to be fully on table. I need this fact, in print to clear up arguement.

While the "footprint" is a common abstraction that players use, it's not really a part of the rules.

However, you do need to measure from starting position to ending position from the hull to the hull. Assuming that you're moving on the table nose-first, and moving straight ahead, I don't see how you can be both fully on the table, and only move 6" from the edge of the table to the nose of the valkyrie's final position.

this is current stance of my LGS judge...

FAQ says use base for determining postion of model in terrain, but you can assault whole model. FAQ for large flying bases overrides standard skimmer rules. Rules clearly state that wings and tails don't count as part of the model, but FAQ changes the wings to part of the hull (not the tail). Ergo, you may move six inches with the tail hanging off, since it doesn't count as part of the model.

and this from current BRB FAQ

FAQ overrides main rulebook - Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

juraigamer wrote:The vehicle's hull cannot be off the board, if this is the case, then the vehicle counts as destroyed.

Where does it say this? I'm not dismissing it, I just need source.

Yes, but that FAQ doesn't over-ride the normal movement measurement of hull-to-hull.

The mess with this is defining the hull. Does the hull include the wings and tail? (Vendetta, I'm talking about)

It doesn't really matter for the purpose of moving on the table, because you're measuring from the nose.

Does it have to be nose?

How do you determine when model is on table? When full flyer base is on? Say you measure from nose, do you count how far the nose moved onto table or furthest point of oval flyer base?

It's sad that GW doesn't give us specific rules to go by. Piss poor FAQ's and written rules, just saying.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Does it have to be nose?

How do you determine when model is on table? When full flyer base is on? Say you measure from nose, do you count how far the nose moved onto table or furthest point of oval flyer base?

It's sad that GW doesn't give us specific rules to go by. Piss poor FAQ's and written rules, just saying.

You measure from the Hull for all movement. you measure as if the vehicle was just off the table, as normal for any vehicle, then measure the distance the vehicle traveled to determine what speed it moved at.

The Hull needs to be on the table when arriving from reserve. As per the FaQ.

you can not have any part of the hull hang over the table edge.

that is how you determine if a skimmer is on the table.

P.S. there is no such thing as a Flyer in 40k. (Unless you are playing Apoc).

DeathReaper wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Does it have to be nose?

How do you determine when model is on table? When full flyer base is on? Say you measure from nose, do you count how far the nose moved onto table or furthest point of oval flyer base?

It's sad that GW doesn't give us specific rules to go by. Piss poor FAQ's and written rules, just saying.

You measure from the Hull for all movement. you measure as if the vehicle was just off the table, as normal for any vehicle, then measure the distance the vehicle traveled to determine what speed it moved at.

The Hull needs to be on the table when arriving from reserve. As per the FaQ.

you can not have any part of the hull hang over the table edge.

that is how you determine if a skimmer is on the table.

P.S. there is no such thing as a Flyer in 40k. (Unless you are playing Apoc).

Define Hull after reading BRB and FAQ's

The hull is basically any non-insignificant part of the model, that is not a gun barrel or turret (though you can still draw LoS to the turret).

They tell us what is not Hull, everything else is Hull.

P.56 "For distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (Ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas and other decorative elements)."

So gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas and other decorative elements are not Hull, everything else is.

thanks

What about, hypothetically, a super heavy tank, that is longer than 6", but can only move 6"? You would not be able to get it fully on the board.

Yes, the Baneblade. Not hypothetical at all. In this case you do the "dont be an idiot" ruling, which is you allow it to come on. Otherwise it makes spearhead formation difficult to play.....

Once you get to things like apoc that are not designed to be played competitively, the rules start to break down.

OT, the entire hull must make it on. The rear wings are not decorative/banners/gun barrels/antennae, so they must be hull. If they are not on the table or in the predetermined play space(usually 6x4 ft) then the vendetta failed to come on completely and is destroyed.

-cgmckenzie

"Q: Are a vehicle’s wings considered to be part of its
hull? (p60)
A: Yes."

"Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play."

"The Movement Phase
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!"

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play."

It's pretty simple, if you wanna leave part of the hull hanging off the board you've just elected to destroy your valk/vendetta. Vendettas are one of the most severely undercosted units in the game, this doesn't exactly render them useless or anything, not by a long shot.