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I was wondering, as the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus signed the treaty of Mars some time after Old Night (I think) They are both separate empires.

After all this time are they still separate or now part of the IoM?

What power does the Council of Terra have over the Mechanicus?

Technically they aren't, but de facto they are. Neither of the two would survive if the AdMech decided to break out.

Yes and no. They are part of the Imperium, but an autonomous part. They supply the Imperium's industrial and military needs, and in return basically have complete autonomy.

When sources talk about "the Imperium", they include the Adeptus Mechanicus, the list of "Imperial Planets" includes the Mechanicus' Forge Worlds, and the Fabricator General is a High Lord of Terra. Furthermore, it is written that the AdMech has accepted the Emperor as the "Master of Mankind", which would naturally include the Machine Cult as well. We also know of at least one case where an Imperial Inquisitor has requisitioned two Titans for use in his campaign.

However, the Adeptus Mechanicus also enjoys a vast array of special rights granting them a degree of autonomy, even more than the Ministorum. I believe a good real life term might be client state ... the bonds between the Imperium and the Mechanicus are much tighter than just an alliance, but more loose than being just another conglomerate of subservient member worlds.

They are. The Fabricator General of Mars sing an act with the Emperor according to witch Adeptus Mechanicus became integrated part of the Imperium of Mankind.
When you look at the Imperial Eagle, one half is Imperium and the other half is Mechanicus ( old lore, new one included several more organisations ).
+ Mechanicus believe that the Emperor is Ommisiah, so bond between them and Imperium is unbreakable.

No, they actually serve the Tyranids. Their leaders are actually cyborg Zoats.

Titanicus gives a really good veiw of the Ad Mech opinion on the subject.

Vaktathi wrote:Yes and no. They are part of the Imperium, but an autonomous part. They supply the Imperium's industrial and military needs, and in return basically have complete autonomy.

Aside of Mars and various forgeworlds. Is there any world that's not yet fully industrialized but belongs to them? somethings like Vostroya.

and how does the government of Admech worlds look like? are all of them being either Triumvirat or Tetrachy?

I'm not sure if the original AdMech viewed the Emperor as a Machine God or being an avatar to him? (if AdMech has a concepts of Trinity, or such)

Lone Cat wrote:Aside of Mars and various forgeworlds. Is there any world that's not yet fully industrialized but belongs to them? somethings like Vostroya.
and how does the government of Admech worlds look like? are all of them being either Triumvirat or Tetrachy?

The studio material alone isn't very detailed on such matters, and once you delve into licensed products such as novels you'll see that all the different authors come up with their own interpretation of the available material. Since they are under no obligation to stick to what each other wrote, I do not think there is a consensus on these topics.

That said, when Vostroya is already one example, why shouldn't there be more? The Imperium has a million worlds, after all.

Lone Cat wrote:I'm not sure if the original AdMech viewed the Emperor as a Machine God or being an avatar to him? (if AdMech has a concepts of Trinity, or such)

The latter, if I remember correctly - though I think they see him less than an avatar and more like an aspect of the Omnissiah.
I'll take a look at the older books when I get home - I believe the 3E or 4E core rulebooks actually had a section dealing with this topic!

They're a state within a state, the Imperium itself is a collection of human organizations unified under the High Lords of Terra and Adeptus Terra, which the AdMech is part of.

They have their own administration and areas of independent rule within the Imperium, but so do the Navigators, Space Marines, Inquisition, and Ecclesiarchy.

The AdMech is allied with the Imperium, but not wholly integrated. They believe the Emperor to be the Omnissiah, a representation of the Machine God.

Vaktathi wrote:Yes and no. They are part of the Imperium, but an autonomous part. They supply the Imperium's industrial and military needs, and in return basically have complete autonomy.

This. Yes and no.

They do not have complete autonomy. They are still part of the Imperium and subject to its laws, the inquisition etc...

Though, with the decline of the Emperor and the fact that a god <--- small g, resides within Mars and the fact that the Necrons know about it bodes ill for the Imperium in some respects.

I am not entirely sure how many within the Ad Mech know where they actually get their technological prowess.

I'm not sure if The Mechanicum is subject to the Inquistion.

Everything is subject to the Inquisition, excepting the Adeptus Custodes and the God-Emperor Himself. While the AdMech prefers to keep its cleansing of here-teks and all such things "in house", much in the same way that SM Chapters prefer to deal with fallen/corrupted members "privately"... this does not make them free from the Inquisition's authority.

Of course, as with so many other major organizations in the Imperium, the Inquisition is not going to be kicking in doors and breaking skulls willy-nilly... at least, not without the support of the Fabricator General and legions of skitaarii support. In this situation, it could be said that the Inquisition is helping the AdMech "clean house"... but, in reality, the =I= still has authority.

Can you think of a situation were the Inquistion investigated the Mechanicum?

Look up the political/governmental structure of the real world Austro-Hungarian Empire. Its the closest thing I can think of to give us an idea of how the system works. They are and they aren't like others have said. The best single word to describe it would be 'semi-autonomous'. They are part of the same organization, but they have x degrees of freedom, and they have the ability to separate/secede.

Lynata wrote:I'll take a look at the older books when I get home - I believe the 3E or 4E core rulebooks actually had a section dealing with this topic!

As promised, some more and older stuff about the relationship between AdMech and Emperor:

"The Cult Mechanicus, or Cult of the Machine, acknowledges the Emperor as Master of Mankind, but does not recognise the authority of the official Imperial Cult, or Ecclesiarchy. Instead, the Adeptus Mechanicus follows its own dark and mysterious strictures. According to the Adeptus Mechanicus, knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity, and all creatures and artefacts that embody knowledge are holy because of it. The Emperor is the supreme object of worship because he comprehends so much."
- Codex Imperialis

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm not sure if The Mechanicum is subject to the Inquistion.

Well ...

"No world, no organisation, no individual is immune to the Inquisition's gaze: planetary governors, even the High Lords themselves, are subject to investigation and no treachery or betrayal of the Emperor is too petty to be left unpunished."
-3E Rulebook

"The mysterious Inquisitors are utterly ruthless in their defence of mankind. They seek and annihilate the enemies of the Emperor whether they can be found without, within or beyond. No conspiracy or rebellion of mind or body is beyond the purview of an Inquisitor, no matter its scale or form, its allies or its defences. Though the Imperium is the greatest stellar realm ever known, no being - man or alien - can evade the stern gaze of the Inquisition, nor evade the stern judgment it metes out. [...]
Each Inquisitor is a peer of the Imperium, one of a finite elite who hold ultimate authority over Mankind. As such, an Inquisitor can recruit any military or civilian force in the pursuit of Imperial duties, from hive world security details through to entire Space Marine Chapters, Titan Legions and vessels of the Imperial Navy."
-5E Rulebook

Sounds pretty much like no exceptions to me. We likely only lack examples because there is annoyingly little information about the Mechanicus in the studio material as is. I'm sure that, were they a proper army, we'd have more - I don't think they would have been the one and only faction that would've been left out in stuff like the "Witchhunters would fight X" list in the old WH Codex. Still, we have plenty sources stating that "no one is above their [the Inquisition's] vigilance", even though some factions, and I'd fully expect the Mechanicus to be amongst them, enjoy a certain degree of protection that would serve as a buffer. In other words: Investigations into the AdMech are by no means impossible, but I'd say they require justification (i.e. a solid lead) and not just curiosity to create the necessary pressure to push through the Adeptus' clout.
Not that the Mechanicus would be the only faction where this applies. Marine Chapters and the Ministorum too are just as able to resist investigation up to a certain degree. That's when the Inquisition's own internal power games come into play, and the Inquisitor trying to push through all that red tape has to present a convincing case in the hopes of gathering support to force his way in, if need be. When push comes to shove, however, it is indeed the Inquisition that will have the last word, simply due to the insane amount of influence this organization is able to unleash on someone challenging its authority.

Mechanicum is definitely under the authority of the Inquisition, a Tech-Priest can be chosen as a member of a Inquisitors retinue and they can commendeer Mechanicus resources for their own activities. If a Tech-Priest starts worshiping you can guarantee the Ordo Hereticus will be all up his ass.

Only groups that's not under the eye of the Inquisition is the Custodes I think.

Harriticus wrote:Mechanicum is definitely under the authority of the Inquisition, a Tech-Priest can be chosen as a member of a Inquisitors retinue and they can commendeer Mechanicus resources for their own activities. If a Tech-Priest starts worshiping you can guarantee the Ordo Hereticus will be all up his ass.

Only groups that's not under the eye of the Inquisition is the Custodes, Grey Knights, and the Death Watch I think.

fixed it for you.

?

Grey Knights and the Deathwatch are still under the purview of the Inquisition.

Coolyo294 wrote:?

Grey Knights and the Deathwatch are still under the purview of the Inquisition.

Grey Knights can do what ever they want but the inqusition cannot control them.
The deathwatch cannot be targeted by the inqusition for bad reasons.

I thought the deathwatch was part of the inquisiton. Wouldn't that be like saying the navy seals can't be targeted by the UCMJ?

Lynata wrote:

Lynata wrote:I'll take a look at the older books when I get home - I believe the 3E or 4E core rulebooks actually had a section dealing with this topic!

As promised, some more and older stuff about the relationship between AdMech and Emperor:

"The Cult Mechanicus, or Cult of the Machine, acknowledges the Emperor as Master of Mankind, but does not recognise the authority of the official Imperial Cult, or Ecclesiarchy. Instead, the Adeptus Mechanicus follows its own dark and mysterious strictures. According to the Adeptus Mechanicus, knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity, and all creatures and artefacts that embody knowledge are holy because of it. The Emperor is the supreme object of worship because he comprehends so much."
- Codex Imperialis

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm not sure if The Mechanicum is subject to the Inquistion.

Well ...

"No world, no organisation, no individual is immune to the Inquisition's gaze: planetary governors, even the High Lords themselves, are subject to investigation and no treachery or betrayal of the Emperor is too petty to be left unpunished."
-3E Rulebook

"The mysterious Inquisitors are utterly ruthless in their defence of mankind. They seek and annihilate the enemies of the Emperor whether they can be found without, within or beyond. No conspiracy or rebellion of mind or body is beyond the purview of an Inquisitor, no matter its scale or form, its allies or its defences. Though the Imperium is the greatest stellar realm ever known, no being - man or alien - can evade the stern gaze of the Inquisition, nor evade the stern judgment it metes out. [...]
Each Inquisitor is a peer of the Imperium, one of a finite elite who hold ultimate authority over Mankind. As such, an Inquisitor can recruit any military or civilian force in the pursuit of Imperial duties, from hive world security details through to entire Space Marine Chapters, Titan Legions and vessels of the Imperial Navy."
-5E Rulebook

Sounds pretty much like no exceptions to me. We likely only lack examples because there is annoyingly little information about the Mechanicus in the studio material as is. I'm sure that, were they a proper army, we'd have more - I don't think they would have been the one and only faction that would've been left out in stuff like the "Witchhunters would fight X" list in the old WH Codex. Still, we have plenty sources stating that "no one is above their [the Inquisition's] vigilance", even though some factions, and I'd fully expect the Mechanicus to be amongst them, enjoy a certain degree of protection that would serve as a buffer. In other words: Investigations into the AdMech are by no means impossible, but I'd say they require justification (i.e. a solid lead) and not just curiosity to create the necessary pressure to push through the Adeptus' clout.
Not that the Mechanicus would be the only faction where this applies. Marine Chapters and the Ministorum too are just as able to resist investigation up to a certain degree. That's when the Inquisition's own internal power games come into play, and the Inquisitor trying to push through all that red tape has to present a convincing case in the hopes of gathering support to force his way in, if need be. When push comes to shove, however, it is indeed the Inquisition that will have the last word, simply due to the insane amount of influence this organization is able to unleash on someone challenging its authority.

Bah. That's the official Ordo line but it much more complicated than that. The majority of the High Lords would balk at the idea of the Inquisition investigating them. When investigating any AdMecha person of authority there is so much politics involved that basically the Inquisition would stay away. Don't see a "normal" Inquisitor traipsing about a forge world and trying to throw his weight around.

Cannibal wrote:I thought the deathwatch was part of the inquisiton. Wouldn't that be like saying the navy seals can't be targeted by the UCMJ?

Deathwatch is the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos as the Grey Knights are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus and the Sisters of Battle are sort of shared between Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy.

Being the Chamber Militant does not mean subservient however, and rather these groups work with their Inquisition branch as close partners. The Grey Knights might be an exception however, and they seem far more tied to Ordo Malleus than the other Chamber Militants are to their own. Deathwatch are pretty much the opposite as Kill Teams are made up of Space Marines from all chapters performing temporary service.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Bah. That's the official Ordo line but it much more complicated than that. The majority of the High Lords would balk at the idea of the Inquisition investigating them. When investigating any AdMecha person of authority there is so much politics involved that basically the Inquisition would stay away. Don't see a "normal" Inquisitor traipsing about a forge world and trying to throw his weight around.

This was also my interpretation. Inquisitors can't just walk around condemning heretics at random unless they target nobodies. Go after somebody with any sort of power and he or she had better have something to back up the enforcement. Whoever loses the confrontation is sweeped under the rug unless the victor got somebody's goat and made another enemy in the process. Politics is mated with convenience.

Heresy is written by the victor.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Bah. That's the official Ordo line but it much more complicated than that.

Not really. The official Ordo line is what I quoted from the printed pages, the part that is "more complicated" is what I already filled in. Given the available material, I don't see it being any different than with the Space Marines, so unless you have any studio source backing up this supposed immunity, personally I'm gonna go with what is actually written in the books.
I mean, if the AdMech were meant to be exempt, I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned at least once in all those texts dealing with the subject and we would have read "not even the High Lords - except the Fabricator General" instead.

I would call the Inquisition's purview over the AdMech fairly symbolic, just like with the Adeptus Astartes. Sure, they're technically empowered to get all inquisitive with tech priests, but it's not something a smart inquisitor's going to do. The AdMech needs the Imperium, and the Imperium needs the AdMech, but that doesn't mean the AdMech wouldn't put up a fight if it felt its "sovereignty," whatever that entails, was being trampled upon, and I doubt anybody wants to be the guy who started a fresh Heresy.

Exactly, it's not black and white. Much is made of the Inquisition's power and it is considerable but honestly the AdMecha is even more powerful.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Bah. That's the official Ordo line but it much more complicated than that.

Not really. The official Ordo line is what I quoted from the printed pages, the part that is "more complicated" is what I already filled in. Given the available material, I don't see it being any different than with the Space Marines, so unless you have any studio source backing up this supposed immunity, personally I'm gonna go with what is actually written in the books.
I mean, if the AdMech were meant to be exempt, I'm pretty sure it would have been mentioned at least once in all those texts dealing with the subject and we would have read "not even the High Lords - except the Fabricator General" instead.

This is essentially where my opinion falls as well.

While we can speculate on the situation, fluff is what's written down like it or no. I have never seen anything that indicates the Ad Mech are immune from the inquisition. Yet there are numerous allusions (to be fair), as mentioned in this thread, that indicate otherwise.

If the Ad Mech were meant to be exempt it would have been mentioned as Lynata says.

Purely my own thoughts.

Not to mention (though I am anyway) that Mars would have gone its own way long ago. So it says something that the hierarchy tows the imperial line and remains loyal. I simply do not believe that it is the Ad Mech that holds the cards here and it is the Imperium that suffers the Ad Mechs presence because of technical needs. The relationship is much closer than that. The Inquisition is a useful tool for the Ad mech as a measure to control Chaos as much as it is for the rest of the Imperium at large.

Some chafe at this control, but most that understand the nature of the Chaos Powers view the inquisition as a 'necessary evil' accepted to keep the forces of chaos at bay. It's not just (though one wonders at times)a tool of control used to keep the foot on the throat of the Imperium at a whim by those in power.