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Just curious - Ghazzy is joined to a unit of boyz. He has slow and purposeful and is also an independent character. Since he is the only model in the unit with S&P, does the squad roll 3d6?

This has been a subject of some debate locally, and I couldn't find an answer on a quick search. Thanks in advance!

Since the unit does not have Move Through Cover, Ghaz loses it while he is with the unit.

So the unit will all move as if they are S&P.

yea, gotta remember the unit moves as slow as the slowest model.

Slightly OT, since S&P state you count as moving through difficult terrain (emphasis mine), and Move Through Cover states when rolling to move through difficult terrain, do these stack? In other words, is it 2d6 outside of difficult terrain, 3d6 in; or is it a permanent 3d6?

permanent 3D6 when he is by himself. The ladz don't have MTC, so it is 2D6. Kommandos, however, do have it, so 3D6 there.

-cgmckenzie

The above is correct

So even though, technically, you are not moving through difficult terrain, you still get the benefit of moving through difficult terrain?

Benefit? Being slow and purposeful means that you are always under the restriction of moving through difficult terrain. Move Through Cover lets you roll an extra D6, but you're still moving slower on average than regular infantry. There's not benefit there... you're simply always effectively moving through difficult terrain.

Happyjew wrote:So even though, technically, you are not moving through difficult terrain, you still get the benefit of moving through difficult terrain?

What benefit are you talking about

Your unit moves as fast as the "slowest" model.

Ghazzy is SnP, and if he's in a unit that does not also have Move thru terrain, then the whole unit rolls 2d6 to see how far they move. That's why putting Ghazzy with Kommandos seems popular since you're rolling 3d6.

Also, if you put Ghazzy in a unit of boyz iin a trukk or wagon, you commonly see that Ghazzy disembarks by himself to ensure that you'd get the 3rd D6 for movement.

Yap.

S&P = "always count as moving through DT"

MTC = "roll an extra d6 when moving through DT"

cgmckenzie wrote:permanent 3D6 when he is by himself. The ladz don't have MTC, so it is 2D6. Kommandos, however, do have it, so 3D6 there.

-cgmckenzie

Yes, but just because he joins a squad does not mean he gains their special rules, so:

Yes, it is counted as moving through cover, but you always move at the speed of the slowest player, and ghazghkull does not have move through cover.

DaWaagh! wrote:Yes, but just because he joins a squad does not mean he gains their special rules, so:

Yes, it is counted as moving through cover, but you always move at the speed of the slowest player, and ghazghkull does not have move through cover.

He's an IC and as such has Move Through Cover and Skilled Rider (pg 47, moving ICs). That's why he loses MtC for joining a squad that doesn't have it.

I think the point Happyjew was getting at was that the model only "counts as" moving through difficult terrain, and was asking whether this still allowed MTC to work.

Answer: of course. If one thing counts as another, then it is treated as such for all purposes. Ghazzy counts as moving through difficult terrain all the time, so any rules that interact with difficult terrain movement will be triggered by this as well.

Erm...I feel like there is some confusion here.

A squad of 20 boyz with Ghazghkull attached assault a unit out in the open. Several rules to remember.

1. ICs don't confer their special rules to a unit unless explicitly stated.
2. Units don't confer their special rules to ICs unless explicitly stated.
3. Units move at the speed of the slowest model.

Put all three of these together. Ghazghkull is Slow and Purposeful, and also has Move through Cover. Boyz have no special rules. In this instance, the unit assaults 3D6, no greater than six (pick the highest) - since that is the speed of the slowest unit. Ghazghkull doesn't give his Slow and Purposeful to the unit, nor Move through Cover - the unit is simply constrained to only move as fast as Ghazghkull.

Now Ghazghkull and the Boyz are going to assault a unit in cover. Now the unit moves 2D6, no greater than six (pick the highest). Ghazghkull still gets 3D6 via move through cover...he doesn't "lose" the rule, but he's constrained to move at the speed of the boyz, who are now potentially slower than him, with only 2D6 dice to assault or move with.

The same applies in every mix and match scenario. When I pair Baron Sathonyx (Dark Eldar) with a Beast Pack, I'm pairing Jump Infantry with Cavalry. The Baron can move 12", run, and assault 6". The beasts can move 6", run, and assault 12".

For movement, I'm restricted to the 6" allowed by the beasts. For assaulting, I'm restricted to the 3D6 allowed by the Baron.

Dashofpepper wrote:Erm...I feel like there is some confusion here.

A squad of 20 boyz with Ghazghkull attached assault a unit out in the open. Several rules to remember.

1. ICs don't confer their special rules to a unit unless explicitly stated.
2. Units don't confer their special rules to ICs unless explicitly stated.
3. Units move at the speed of the slowest model.

Put all three of these together. Ghazghkull is Slow and Purposeful, and also has Move through Cover. Boyz have no special rules. In this instance, the unit assaults 3D6, no greater than six (pick the highest) - since that is the speed of the slowest unit. Ghazghkull doesn't give his Slow and Purposeful to the unit, nor Move through Cover - the unit is simply constrained to only move as fast as Ghazghkull.

Now Ghazghkull and the Boyz are going to assault a unit in cover. Now the unit moves 2D6, no greater than six (pick the highest). Ghazghkull still gets 3D6 via move through cover...he doesn't "lose" the rule, but he's constrained to move at the speed of the boyz, who are now potentially slower than him, with only 2D6 dice to assault or move with.

The same applies in every mix and match scenario. When I pair Baron Sathonyx (Dark Eldar) with a Beast Pack, I'm pairing Jump Infantry with Cavalry. The Baron can move 12", run, and assault 6". The beasts can move 6", run, and assault 12".

For movement, I'm restricted to the 6" allowed by the beasts. For assaulting, I'm restricted to the 3D6 allowed by the Baron.

Actually the squad still assaults 2d6, however, only Ghaz would have his Initative dropped to 1 (unless the unit has assault grenades). Move Through Cover is lost by an IC who joins a unit without it.

Correct. "Move through Cover" is an asterixed USR, and thus lost by any character who joins a unit without it and vice versa. Ghazzy with boyz may not roll an extra d6 for movement.

As above. IC + Normal unit = 2D6 for difficult terrain. the unit must have MTC, like Kommandos, in order to have 3D6

I agree with Dash in that you would roll 3d6 for normal movement (i.e. not in difficult terrain). Otherwise, you are saying that Ghaz confers his S&P to the unit. So, if I attached him to a squad of Lootas, they would "gain" S&P thereby making them relentless, would it not?

There is NO ONE I know that would allow me to try this kind of shenanigans.

Pg 74: The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an IC joining a unit that does not have the same special rule.

Pg 75: Move Through Cover* - Units with this rule roll an extra d6 when rolling through difficult terrain.
Since the boyz do not have Move Through Cover, Ghaz loses it while with the boyz.

Pg 76: Slow and Purposeful - Models with this special rule are relentless. However they always count as moving through difficult terrain. Remember that a slow and purposeful IC will cause any unit he joins to move at his speed (and vice versa) as units have to move at the speed of the slowest model.

Nowhere does it say, that S&P is granted to the rest of the unit, only they move as fast as the model with S&P. Additionally, since Ghaz loses Move Through Cover, he loses the extra D6 when moving. By himself (or with a unit that has MtC), he would move using the highest of 3d6. Without MtC, he only gets 2d6.

Models do not take difficult terrain tests, units do. The entire unit moves through difficult terrain if a single model moves through difficult terrain.

The only exception is the FAQ where the boyz are not I1 for having a megaarmor model int he unit when assaulting.

Actually, that's wrong. The boyz are not moving through difficult terrain, they just may not move any faster than the slowest model, which would be the MA model.

Jidmah wrote:Actually, that's wrong. The boyz are not moving through difficult terrain, they just may not move any faster than the slowest model, which would be the MA model.

Models cannot be chosen who is in terrain or not. You can only test for difficult terrain for the unit. the FAQ gives an explicit exception for assaulting ONLY.

Q: If a unit that contains one or more models with the Slow
and Purposeful special rule assaults does the whole unit
count as assaulting through difficult terrain and hence
strike at initiative 1 unless they have assault grenades?
(p76)
A: No. Only models with the Slow and Purposeful special
rule will count as moving through difficult terrain for this
purpose. Whilst the rest of the squad are reduced to
moving at the same speed this does not also make the
ground difficult for them.

The S&P model actually is in difficult terrain for all purposes and when his unit moves, the UNIT must take difficult terrain tests because models may not test individually. If a single model is in difficult terrain, the entire unit is... the only exception is that the negative effects for assaulting through terrain is not applied.

Nothing allows ghaz to make an individual account at 3D6.

Well, could you then have Ghaz separate from the mob and roll 3d6. The mob of boyz could then conduct their movement. And, if Ghaz happens to be 2" from one of those boyz in the mob, he happens to rejoin the squad?

Green is Best! wrote:Well, could you then have Ghaz separate from the mob and roll 3d6. The mob of boyz could then conduct their movement. And, if Ghaz happens to be 2" from one of those boyz in the mob, he happens to rejoin the squad?

Not on the same turn.

If he was joined to the squad before movement all models will move at the same time.

If he started the turn detached the squad moves as normal, and Ghaz, if he has the movement, can join them.

If he leaves the squad, he moves as normal for him, and the squad moves as normal for them, but he can not attach at the end of the movement phase.

Any reason why he couldnt? I didnt recall any restriction (in fact, theres a compulsion on joining) on an IC leaving and joining the same unit.

An IC only joins/leaves at the end of the movement phase iirc so can't leave/join the same unit in one turn.

That, and there's also the argument that he still has to move at the same speed as the unit on the turn he leaves, due to not actually leaving the unit until his and the unit's movement is completed.

Thats what I was thinking - you dont determine if you are joined to a unit until the end of his movement.