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Right so for a tournement i intend to go to i have chosen a herald of tzeentch as my general. The herald also uses master of sorcery (Beasts) so know all spells. so while thinking about this i had the following questions

1. If i transform into a big scary monster do i keep my 4+ ward save and locus and magic levels? - i know he cant cast spells or channel but can he still dispel?

I've found this, so do i keeps my lovely 4+ ward? - would it be the same for high elves? - would a high elf mage transformed keep ASF?

Q: If a model is transformed, for example by the Transformation
of Kadon or Sivejir’s Hex Scroll, do their special rules stop
working along with their magic items and equipment?(Reference)
A: No

2. For the spell the curse of anraheir is open ground treated as well? - can i use it on a big horde and next time it moves kill off about 1/3 of them? - Do you get armour saves and ward/regen from dangerous terrain?

3. What is the best big monster to go for with transformation? - i was thinking about the dragons, what models would be best used as a great fire dragon or horned dragon? - are manticores, hydras and chimeras better? - i dont think hydras as i dont need the regen or model.

4. If i cast pann's inpenetrable pelt, the savage beast of horros or wyssan's wildform and then transform into a big scary monster do i keep the affects of the first spell? - i.e. +3 toughness, +3 attacks and strenght or +1 Strength and +1 toughness.

Some answers would be nice before i decied on what lore to use in the end?

1. You keep nothing except the wounds transfer. You are that monster. So the more powerful the Wizard, the less beneficial it is to actually transform. And for some super greater daemons, you might actually become weaker. If you were in a group of Horrors, they should lose their +1 ward as well. Because they no longer have a Herald in their unit they have a [monster type]. I think the only exception is it still knows you're the general because that's a designation and not any kind of attribute or ability, but in most cases your Inspiring Presence just dropped.

2. It says "all terrain." Where do you get the definition for "Open Ground?"

3. I don't really think any are very good for your main daemon general. Maybe a backup.

4. Transformation doesn't have a dispel attached. The spells effect units. It doesn't care what's in them.

1) If the ward is due to a special rule, you would keep it. Locus is a special rule so you would retain it, but you're not a Herald while transformed so you dont keep it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) If the ward is due to a special rule, you would keep it. Locus is a special rule so you would retain it, but you're not a Herald while transformed so you dont keep it.

Interesting take.
Does that mean a vampire that transforms doesn't crumble?

-Matt

You have the stats of those monsters listed at the end of the bestiary in the BRB. You have no others.

A vampire isn't a vampire when transformed. It's not an undead. It has none of the special rules listed under those headings.

The BRB FAQ disagrees about losing any special rules:

Q: If a model is transformed, for example by the Transformation
of Kadon or Sivejir’s Hex Scroll, do their special rules stop
working along with their magic items and equipment?(Reference)
A: No

Jebus. You're right.

Score yet another point for Khairos Fateweaver, the flying, flaming attacks, 3+ Ward, 4+ Scaly Skin, Breath Weapon, Black Hydra......

Matt - it would still have the Unstable rule, surely!

The herald would keep all of his abilities. Best to change into is a Mountain Chimera. It would have a 4+ ward lots of Str 7 attacks, T 7 and a Breath Weapon. Still stays daemonic as well so has the nifty Daemonic Instability rules. If he was with a unit, they would sill have the +1 Ward Save (still has Locus). Even better than that, a Chimera's base will fit within the footprint of the unit of Horrors so he can be placed anywhere and can Make Way! Personally though, I like a solo Herald with Wings running near a unit for Strategic reasons.

Edit: As an aside, I've had great fun with my Vampire Lord w/ Red Fury changing into a Mountain Chimera.

Locus is an ability of Pink Horrors. Though it says if there is a Herald in the unit. Not sure if he is or isn't if transformed. I'd say he isn't, because his model type is no longer "Herald of Tz" it's Mountain Chimera or whatever.

I thought the book was laid out giving the Pink Horrors' abilities then with a separate paragraph giving the increased ward save with "Herald only" in parenthesis. That would indicate it's a special ability of the Herald. I also think he's both a Herald and a Mountain Chimera, a Character and a Monster. The rules for Kadon don't say that he stops being anything that he is except for troop type. He is still a Wizard, though he can't cast spells. He still has all of his magic items, though he can't use them. I don't think there's anything in the rules that says a Monster can't be a Herald. However, it's not really something that needs to be fought over since good use of the spell will mean the ward save of the unit will be of little consequence.

More important than the ward save is that a Slaughtermaster who turns into a Mountain Chimera is still immune to poison.
Way more useful than that silly 4+ ward, and he's packing enough wounds to not be dead when it's dispelled.

-Matt

Angelic wrote:I thought the book was laid out giving the Pink Horrors' abilities then with a separate paragraph giving the increased ward save with "Herald only" in parenthesis. That would indicate it's a special ability of the Herald. I also think he's both a Herald and a Mountain Chimera, a Character and a Monster. The rules for Kadon don't say that he stops being anything that he is except for troop type. He is still a Wizard, though he can't cast spells. He still has all of his magic items, though he can't use them. I don't think there's anything in the rules that says a Monster can't be a Herald. However, it's not really something that needs to be fought over since good use of the spell will mean the ward save of the unit will be of little consequence.

The 4+ ward is "herald only."

His model type is no longer Herald of Tz. Herald isn't a title, it's the unit type. He's now a Black Hydra. If he's not a Black Hydra, then he doesn't get the WS/STR/T/A etc of a Black Hydra.

He's not a wizard, as that isn't listed under special rules.

BUUUT:

It doesn't matter because Locus of Tz is listed under special rules for the Herald at the back. Sorry I had read the fluffy description part for Pink Horrors and it listed Locus there (because Heralds dont have their own long-form section).

imo,

If you read the entry for Transformation of Kadon, it describes the wizard after the transformation as "the wizard". It even goes out of its way to say "even though he is technically a monster". So, even while transformed he is still a wizard, even though he cannot cast spells. imo, he is still a herald of Tz, and the horrors would still benefit from having him in his unit.

He is a wizard who is transformed into a monster, not a monster.

Read the Transformation of Kadon spell, they say "the Wizard" three times while talking about him AFTER the transformation, like they're trying to drive home the fact that "hey, he's still "the wizard".

p. 86 "A herald of Tz is a lvl 2 wizard..."

Wizard = herald (Chaos Army Book)
Kadon-Monster = wizard (BRB)
=> Kadon-Monster = still herald.

Well, if you read the post it doesn't matter because Locus is listed as a Special Rule for the herald and they don't lose them whilst transformed per the main FAQ.

But you're taking a huge leap anyway. They say "wizard" because it's a lot faster than saying "the dude that just cast the spell but isn't a dude anymore." If there was a bound item that let you use Transformation, it wouldn't make the owner a Wizard. It's just a placeholder word.

It says "while transformed, the wizard cannot cast spells...". They went out of their way to describe it as "the dude that just cast the spell but isn't a dude anymore", so I don't think it's a leap of any size - BUT, it's really just a matter of perception.

If you perceive it as a wizard losing himself in the monster he's become, that's cool.

I just think of it as a temporary shapechange. If I were to target an Kadon-monster in a game, I'd say "my leadbelchers are going to shoot your transformed wizard", not "...your black dragon".

Again, just a matter of perception, which is always subjective.

Every spell says Wizard. It's just the term they used. The Ruby Ring of Ruin has a bound fireball spell. Fireball mentions Wizard multiple times, even though you can give the ring to an Ogre Bruiser who is a very non-Wizard. The spell still works even though he isn't a Wizard. Again, it's just a word. It would have been more appropriate to say caster, but throughout the BRB they use Wizard.

The FAQ says you keep Special Rules and spell says you lose Wizard abilities. If you look up any caster in any army book each unit has Special Rules, Equipment and Magic (they also have options, but that seems to modify equipment/magic). If it's not in Special Rules, you don't get it. Otherwise, a Wizard could take a mount and you'd have a hydra riding a horse with a Great Weapon.

Wizard, caster, tomato, tomahto.

I still think of it as a transformed caster. /shrug.