Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

* HQ (365pts)

* Captain (165pts)
Artificer Armour, Boltgun, Digital Weapons, Hellfire Rounds, Relic Blade

* Captain Cato Sicarius (200pts)

* Elites (200pts)

* Terminator Squad (200pts)
Terminator Sergeant (40pts) 4x Terminators with Storm Bolters and Powerfists

* Troops (310pts)

* Scout Squad (140pts)
* 4x Scout
4x Camo Cloaks, 4x Sniper Rifle
* Sergeant Telion (76pts)
Camo Cloak

* Tactical Squad (170pts)
Flamer, Missile Launcher, 9x Space Marine (144pts)
* Space Marine Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Chainsword

* Fast Attack (180pts)

* Land Speeder Squadron (180pts)
* 3x Land Speeder
Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

* Heavy Support (445pts)

* Devastator Squad (215pts)
4x Heavy Bolter, 4x Space Marine
* Razorback
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter
* Space Marine Sergeant
Power Weapon, Storm Bolter

* Dreadnought (Heavy) (130pts)
Assault Cannon, Extra Armour
* Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon
Storm Bolter

* Predator (100pts)
Autocannon, Extra Armour, Heavy Bolters

First off, write your list out in more readable formats from now on. Here's an example:

HQ- Captain w/ Relic blade, digital weapons, hellfire rounds - 165 pts

Elite- Tactical Terminator squad - 200 points

Troops - Scout squad (4x sniper rifles + tellion) - 140 pts
Troops- Tac squad (Flamer, Missile Launcher) - 170 pts

Fast - 3x Land Speeders (2x HB each) - 180 pts

Heavy- 5 man Dev squad (4x HB, sarge w/ Power weapon + storm bolter) in Razorback (TL HB)- 255 pts
Heavy - Dreadnought w/ assault cannon + extra armor - 130 pts
Heavy - Predator w/ AC+2xHB, Extra armor - 100 pts

Now that thats sorted, lets look at these choices.

HQ- Captain w/ Relic blade, digital weapons, hellfire rounds - 165 pts
In general, Marine Captains are a poor choice. Very expensive for what he can do for you. Your almost always better off with a cheap librarian or chaplain, which can actually make the rest of your army more effective.

Elite- Tactical Terminator squad - 200 points
Decent enough choice, but you NEED to have 1 of them with an assault cannon, Heavy Flamer, or Missile Launcher for them to be worth it. A chain fist or two is also a good idea.

Troops - Scout squad (4x sniper rifles + tellion) - 140 pts
Tellion isn't worth it in this squad; Ditch him and take a scout w/ a heayv bolter
Troops- Tac squad (Flamer, Missile Launcher) - 170 pts
Good all-around load out, could definitely use a transport though. Consider giving sarge a combi-flamer or power sword
Fast - 3x Land Speeders (2x HB each) - 180 pts
Decent configuration, but I prefer 2x land speeders with cyclone launchers over 3x with 2 heavy bolters each. Gives you just as much anti-horde (frag missles), but with longer range and the option of anti-tank.

Heavy- 5 man Dev squad (4x HB, sarge w/ Power weapon + storm bolter) in Razorback (TL HB)- 255 pts
Consider what your getting for this points cost... 4 missile shots and a twin linked heavy bolter on a fragile transport. You'd be much, MUCH better off taking a land raider here, seeing as for 5 points more you can get 2x twin linked lascannons, a multimelta, and a twin linked heavy bolter, along with transport capacity, in a badass tank that is hard to kill.
Heavy - Dreadnought w/ assault cannon + extra armor - 130 pts
Fairly sure you can't take this as heavy without a master of the forge HQ... ditch extra armor, not worth the cost on this guy.
Heavy - Predator w/ AC+2xHB, Extra armor - 100 pts
again, ditch heavy armor on this unit. Not worth it... its rarely important enough to move a shaken predator to warrent the cost.


Overall- You need a second tactical squad. You only have 15 scoring models, all on foot. You'll lose pretty much any objective based game. Perhaps drop the scouts, grab a second tac squad, drop the predator or dreadnought, and buy rhinos for your tac squads.

Thanks for the feedback (both on the army and my forum etiquette.) You make some good points, especially cause I've been losing the objective battle a lot to orky boys.

Do not buy the landraider.
Do not buy chaplains, maybe in termy armour it would be ok. Captains are great in cc.
Otherwise follow the above advice.

You dev. squad could do with missile launchers to give you both antiinfantry and antivehicle. In general antitank is what you lack.
Take 10 scouts with telion and you can drop the cloaks he gives them all stealth.
Usually having two tanks and the dread will not work so well. They just become targets.

Well, right now it's just me and a friend of mine. He's all orky and doesn't care for vehicles, so I'm hoping to set it up as all anti-horde. But hearing other folks take on it is kind of opening my eyes (Effectiveness vs points, etc)

I would agree except you have no need for a Land raider and I would keep tellion against orks to drop the nobz, big mekk, or warboss. Usually he is a waist of points but here he could be a game changer.

Yeah man, drop all scouts, run tac squads with flamer and ML in rhinos. Really the only HQ you need is a libby with avenger and null zone. typhoons are great choices, termies are acceptable but i would give them a ML. drop the dread, the pred and the dev squad and rock a land raider crusader. fill points with rhinos, tact squads and termies to taste. you will like it alot more running that crusader against your boy. it will probabbly make him go buy a battle wagon. lol

Current army is (basically Assault on Black Reach plus a scout squad)

Captain - Aux Grenade Launcher, Digital Weapons, Hellfire Rounds, Artificer Armor, Boltgun, Relic Blade (180 pts)

Terminator Squad - Power Fists x4, Power Weapon (200 pts)

Tactical Squad - Missile Launcher, Flamer (170 pts)

Scouts - Camo Cloaks, Sniper rifles (90 pts)

Dreadnaught - DCC, Multi Melta (105 pts)



These ideas sound great, but my problem isn't with closing into the horde, it's the damn nobs. They sit there and soak up hit after hit from both bolter fire and my terminator squad with the Captain with them, and slaughter anything they get into CC with, whether they assaulted or not. How do you guys take care of the nob issue?

D.Azrinae wrote:These ideas sound great, but my problem isn't with closing into the horde, it's the damn nobs. They sit there and soak up hit after hit from both bolter fire and my terminator squad with the Captain with them, and slaughter anything they get into CC with, whether they assaulted or not. How do you guys take care of the nob issue?

Fellow Ork players forgive me....but it's a fair question that I'm going to answer. If he starts tabling his friend, we'll give the friend advice

Nobz unit problems? Wound allocation and FNP? S8+ weapons. Krak missiles(your cheapest option most likely), meltas, lascannons. They'll cause instant death and ignore FNP....you just might have to deal with a 5+ invulnerable save from cybork bodies. Large amounts of LC assault terminators work well, but aren't incredibly versatile(can't wound vehicles well). The problem with regular terminators and TH/SS termies is that the TH and PF strikes at I1, just like the powerklaws, so he'll be taking a bunch of your guys out as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your dread will take a few of them out in CC first, and then get popped.

When you guys start mobilizing, it'll be a different game. IMO, you need another tactical squad. A different HQ could help, but in friendly games, I love taking my warboss against someone's captain and letting them slug it out.

As far as your suggested list for 1500:

Having a captain and Cato Sicarius together is damn near 25% of your points....which is way too much tied up in HQ's in this case. Shoot, either of them is worth another tactical squad. Let's be honest, as cool as they are, who would win, one of them, or a tactical squad?

A cyclone on your terminator squad would be nice.

Flamers are decent for hordes, but you only get one shot in, normally. They're free, but you're often better off with a meltagun, I'd rather have a good chance to damage/pop a vehicle than inflicting 2 wounds at close range.

Devastator squad would be best served with ML's.

It's been said, I'll reiterate, the first thing I thought when I read the list was that I'd table it by the end of turn 3. No way to stop my Battlewagons, and not enough models to deal with my list. No offense intended at all, just looking at it from a competitive view.

If I'm playing a friendly game and people say, let's fight infantry battles, I'm game. That's neither here nor there. To counter nobz units, you're best with S8+ weapons to cause instant death. Have fun!

These ideas sound great, but my problem isn't with closing into the horde, it's the damn nobs. They sit there and soak up hit after hit from both bolter fire and my terminator squad with the Captain with them, and slaughter anything they get into CC with, whether they assaulted or not. How do you guys take care of the nob issue?

Honestly? By buying more than the starter set. Nobs arent a problem unless you're not taking heavy weapons.

Go and buy another Tactical Marine box, and two Rhinos to go with them. That gives you the start of a mech list, which an all infantry Ork army will have problems against.

In the mean time, give your scouts a Heavy Bolter.
Give your Dreadnought a Heavy Flamer.
Combat Squad every game.
Use spare parts to make a Cyclone Missile Launcher for your Terminators.
Learn to judge 24" and kite the Nobs with your Terminators.

unbeliever87 wrote:

These ideas sound great, but my problem isn't with closing into the horde, it's the damn nobs. They sit there and soak up hit after hit from both bolter fire and my terminator squad with the Captain with them, and slaughter anything they get into CC with, whether they assaulted or not. How do you guys take care of the nob issue?

Honestly? By buying more than the starter set. Nobs arent a problem unless you're not taking heavy weapons.

Go and buy another Tactical Marine box, and two Rhinos to go with them. That gives you the start of a mech list, which an all infantry Ork army will have problems against.

In the mean time, give your scouts a Heavy Bolter.
Give your Dreadnought a Heavy Flamer.
Combat Squad every game.
Use spare parts to make a Cyclone Missile Launcher for your Terminators.
Learn to judge 24" and kite the Nobs with your Terminators.

I Lol'd because I needed to QFT&J.

Here's what I'm looking at now after doing some more looking, digging, and generally getting dirty. (Maybe I should go IG)

SM - Custom Chapter

Chaplain - Storm, Bolter, Terminator Armour - 130pts
Terminator AS - 3x Lightning Claws, 2x TH/PS - 200pts
Land Raider Crusader - 260pts

Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Melta, Missile Launcher, Power Fist (w/ Rhino-HK Missile) 255pts
Tactical Squad - 10 Marines, Melta, Missile Launcher, Power Fist (w/ Rhino-HK Missile) 255pts

Land Speeder - Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher - 90pts
Land Speeder - Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter - 60pts

Space Marine Bike Squad - 6 Bikers, 1 Atk Bike - 2 Melta, Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta, Melta Bomb 250pts

Does it look like I have I learned anything?

looks much better, I'd just say consider taking a librarian over a chaplain, and throwing the librarian with the bike squad.

The assault terminators will get 12 lightning claw attacks, and 6 thunder hammer attacks on the charge, right?

Assume you need 4's to hit. You'll get 6 hits with claws and 3 with hammers. The re-rolls will give you ~3 additional hits with claws, and ~1 additional hit with hammers.

Ask yourself, what is going to require the extra 4-5 hits to kill? And are those extra 4-5 hits worth the 130 points?

Compare that to the librarian, who can force your enemy to re-roll all his passed invulnerable saves, or BBQ an entire squad of marines with an avenger flamer blast.

I use a full bike squad + librarian biker in my lists quite often, and they do very well.

In general, I think I's agree with that assessment. But I'm thinking having the chaplain in there with the termies vs the nobs (which he's not playing in 'Eavy Armor) to re-roll failed wounds is going to end up eating away at them faster. Do I have this right?

If your worried about nobs, take 3x hammer 2x claw.

The reason is that you want to allocate as many wounds as possible on the claws when you fight him. Your claws swing first, and you wound him.

After that, he swings... allocate any and all possible wounds (doubling up if possible) on the claws. if you fail a 2+ save on the claws at this point, it doesn't matter so much, because they have already attacked.

Then the hammers / power klaws swing, and you allocate as much as you can to the hammernators.

If you have too many claws, you'll just end up doing a lot of wounds without killing anything, then the power claws will clobber you. Better to have more hammer attacks, while still having a decent number of swings first.



Vs nobs you normally want more hammers anyway, because the instant death is awesome.

Horst wrote:If your worried about nobs, take 3x hammer 2x claw.

The reason is that you want to allocate as many wounds as possible on the claws when you fight him. Your claws swing first, and you wound him.

After that, he swings... allocate any and all possible wounds (doubling up if possible) on the claws. if you fail a 2+ save on the claws at this point, it doesn't matter so much, because they have already attacked.

Then the hammers / power klaws swing, and you allocate as much as you can to the hammernators.

If you have too many claws, you'll just end up doing a lot of wounds without killing anything, then the power claws will clobber you. Better to have more hammer attacks, while still having a decent number of swings first.



Vs nobs you normally want more hammers anyway, because the instant death is awesome.

You won't get any 2+ saves with the terminators, because PK's are power weapons and ignore armor. You'll be dealing with 2+ saves on the choppa and BC attacks, and 5+ invulnerable with the PK's. TH's work better for nobs in general:

1) As a S8 attack, it causes instant death

2) With a Storm Shield, that 3+ invulnerable is a royal pain in the rear when you're relying on those PK attacks.

Say he's running 3 PK Nobs. 12 attacks on the charge, 6 of which hit(unless he's got a WB then it's 8), 5 wounds, with SS 3++, you're losing 2, hopefully 1 termie. The LC's are best for regular boyz, as they ignore armor(not a big deal), but the re-roll to wound increases your damage output by 50%, and they strike before the boyz. Against nobz, the LC's cause only 1 wound, and those can be allocated, which is annoying for YOU when that instant death TH hit is allocated on a wounded nob......but that's the way we roll

Taurinus, nobody takes a full squad of PK nobs.

They will take maybe half with claws, half with huge choppas.

You want the lightning claw guys there to absorb the choppa hits, because they have already got their attacks in. If you have 5x hammer terminators, you'll lose 1-2 of them without ever having used them to attack. If you have a couple of LC guys to allocate regular wounds to, they will get their attacks in BEFORE they die.

Wow, first off, thank you for the great, well thought out replies. I'll have to keep this in mind when I get enough experience under my belt to reply to other people's posts.

Second, I wasn't able to pick up a Chaplain or Assault Termies Today, but I did pick up the Battleforce and an additional Rhino. If I field all my models, it looks a little something like:

HQ

Captain
Arty Armor and Powersword

Troops

Sniper Scouts
Camo Cloaks and Sniper Rifles

Assault Scouts
4 Shotguns and Heavy Bolter, Melta Bomb

Tac Squad x10
ML and Flamer
Rhino /w Storm Bolter and HK Missile

Tac Squad x10
Lascannon and Melta
Rhino /w Storm Bolter and HK Missile

Tac Squad x5
Flamer

Elite

Terminators x5
Power Fists and Storm Bolters

Dreadnought
Multi Melta and DCCW

Fast Attack

Assault Marines
Powerfist, Plasma Pistol and Flamer, Melta Bomb

Total: 1318 pts

What would you play in a 1000pt game given this list?

Horst, all that was done by 3 PK nobz.. which is normal for a squad of 6-10 nobz. I run an all Nob list, and they eat everything they get into CC with. Don't underestimate them, their biggest weakness is insta death for sure. Especially when the AP ignores their FNP. Melta guns, las cannons, thunder hammers.. ect. are your best bet for killing nobz.

@Horst: Not disagreeing with you at all, just stating something. 2 LC and 3 TH/SS is a good squad. I've also had a SM Captain make 12 consecutive 4+ invuln saves and kill my warboss while taking him AND a PK nob on. Wasn't that a face slapper! I've also had termies shrug off over a dozen wounds with 2+ saves when at least two should have died. I'm a statistics and probability man, but it happens.

Either way, want to kill nobz fast? S8+ weapons that ignore the armor.

And I've seen people field 100% PK. They're normally young, and only do it once.

Drop the shotgun scouts, as cool as they sound and the guns arent bad, they rarely work for me and when I say rarely I mean never

Also try not mix up-close-and-personal weapons with long range weapons in your scouts as I contradicts the units use and can limit their effectiveness, each unit only needs one role Your scouts and your second tactical squad are an example of this.

The termies need a cyclone ML and IMHO a CF, they can fire the cyclone on the move so they are the rare exception to what I said above, the chainfist is cheap and cheerful and handy with a 2D6 pen roll against vehicles in combat as well as annoying walkers and the like.

Drop the five man tac squad, 10 man tac's only.

Also I don't think plasma pistols in jump squads are worth it personally but thats just me

Just a few thoughts

I was thinking the plas pistol will have will give me a little extra oomph if I land them next to the nobs or a trukk or bunker or the like. Why do you feel they are of limited use?

OP - I don't know if somebody already mentioned this to you or not (I didn't see it, but I might have missed something), but one thing I've learned from the few games I've been able to play so far is that if you've got high numbers of a moderately or poorly armored enemy in front of you that wants to close to CC the missile launcher in it's myriad forms is definitely your friend, using frag missiles. That blast template, small as it may seem, will do a lot of damage fast.

ChorusLucia wrote:OP - I don't know if somebody already mentioned this to you or not (I didn't see it, but I might have missed something), but one thing I've learned from the few games I've been able to play so far is that if you've got high numbers of a moderately or poorly armored enemy in front of you that wants to close to CC the missile launcher in it's myriad forms is definitely your friend, using frag missiles. That blast template, small as it may seem, will do a lot of damage fast.

this is one of the reasons I like typhoon speeders so much... moving 12", then laying down 3 heavy bolter shots and 2 frag missiles per speeder is amazing, and well worth the 90 points per model you pay for them.

Horst wrote:this is one of the reasons I like typhoon speeders so much... moving 12", then laying down 3 heavy bolter shots and 2 frag missiles per speeder is amazing, and well worth the 90 points per model you pay for them.

Amen. I did the math for those last night, probably going to be my next set of purchases.

D.Azrinae wrote:

Horst wrote:this is one of the reasons I like typhoon speeders so much... moving 12", then laying down 3 heavy bolter shots and 2 frag missiles per speeder is amazing, and well worth the 90 points per model you pay for them.

Amen. I did the math for those last night, probably going to be my next set of purchases.

I agree on both counts... definitely adding at least one typhoon in the near future