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vanguard vets have a rule called heroic intervention. do you have to declare you are using this rule before or after you roll to see if they come in that turn

after the roll to see if they come in but before you place them on the table.

Hellstorm is correct.

Since all HI does is let you assault the turn you DS in there is no reason not to declare it, even if you scatter too far from a unit to use it.

DeathReaper wrote:Hellstorm is correct.

Since all HI does is let you assault the turn you DS in there is no reason not to declare it, even if you scatter too far from a unit to use it.

Actually HI prevents you from shooting or running. This could be hazardous if any plasma cannons are present in the opponents army and you miss your target.

Point being you can only use it when you DS in from reserve.

No point in taking Vanguard Vets if you do not declare HI.

Better off using regular assault marines.

How about there is never a point in taking JPVanguard.

An additional 50 points to the base Assault marine unit(with a PW on their Sgt) for +1 attack/model(on only 4 models) and Heroic intervention is not a good value

The ability to make the unit even more expensive through special CCW options on the troopers does not help justify their price

I guess we can say that at least BA get them at a 10 point discount compared to Vanilla.

165 points for a BA Jump Pack unit that re-roll failed reserve rolls, has a power weapon, 2 base attacks, and can kill a dug in heavy support unit on the turn the DS in after scattering only 1D6 has its uses.

I used a unit of 10 in a 2000 point Kill Point denial army that I made(Only 6 KP total), it worked well.

or 115 points for a BA jump pack unit, that re-rolls failed reserve rolls, and has a power weapon, also this unit scores.

50 points for HI and +4 attacks is a bit pricey is all I am saying, especially when you drop in outside of 6"(as in roll a 6 while scattering away from the enemy unit). You need a few things to go right just to actually use them with HI:you need to have placed the initial model about 3" from the enemy unit you wish to assault, then you need to either not scatter at all, or scatter a minor distance. 1/3 of the time you will not scatter at all, then roughly 2/3 of all scatters towards the enemy unit will land you a mishap, then roughly 1/2 of all scatters away from the enemy unit will leave you outside of charge distance. This leaves us with a roughly 18.5% chance to actually land where we want(1/3 to land on target*1/3of2/3+1/2of2/3 to land within an assault capable elipse; roughly, or 1/3*[2/9+1/3]); which is a 81.5% chance to have wasted those 50 additional points on arrival

I will grant that due to DoA BA VV are far superior to the nilla ones(like they actually could be used in the manner intended); but they are still simply not worth it

Nilla, BTW, have only a 2.444% chance to land where they want if they initially place just over 4" from the enemy

For a 1 in 6 chance of not being able to assault, its worth the points to get rid of an entrenched enemy. Though a 10 man unit in a drop pod with 2 meltaguns could probably do about the same damage.

No, it is a roughly 5-in-6 chance to not be able to assault.

1-in-6 is 16.666%, which is just under the chance to actually land where you can assault with BA VV.

the thing is the math shown is a conglomeration of what should be represented.

1/3 of the time you will land exactly where you want to(a hit is rolled).

Then only roughly 1/12 of any scatter result(when everything is taken into account, including scattering towards, away from, and to the side of the enemy unit) will net you the ability to actually assault the unit.

VV are useful in certain type of BA builds, DoA specifically.

However, in all other lists, their competition in their force organization chart is stiff. Baal preds and landspeeders are among my favorites. Cheap and effective.

Also, if you do want to run them, there are two popular builds.
1. Cheap, fragile, and efficient. This was mentioned before, 175 pts gets you 5 JP VV with 4 CCW/BP and 1 PF/BP.

2. Point sink, deadly, and resilient. Balls to the wall here, usually includes 10 JP VV with 4-5 SS and lots of PW/PF/TH. ~400-500 pts.

5 in 6? your math is off.

2/3rds of the time you will scatter.

75% of the time you will scatter away from the unit, only if you scatter directly away 5 or 6 inches will you be unable to assault.

very little chance of not assaulting with HI.

You have a .2778% chance to scatter in any given direction(that is 1 in 360, for the 360 degrees of a circle you are going to be scattering in)

If you multiply that by 178(all the degrees that are away from the target unit) you have a 49.444% chance to scatter away.

You also have a 49.444% chance to scatter towards the enemy unit.

And finally a .5555% chance to scatter parallel to the unit in either direction.

Roughly 50% of scatters towards or away from the unit are going to be closer to parallel then perpendicular. This means you are left with the 180* Left and right that are then dependent on the distance rolled to still allow for charge range, along with the back 90. The fore 90 may well cause a mishap, and again some of the Left and right 90s(roughly 45 of each) could also land you in mishap(again dependent on distance rolled and initial placement).

I assure you it is closer to 5-in-6 to fail, especially when mishaps is added to the equation.

Are you factoring in hits rolled on the scatter die or simply just when you don't hit?

I feel that if you have a 33% chance to hit, then "5-in-6 fail" simply does not make sense, unless of course you are calculating just the scatter.

this was outside of the 33% chance to get a hit.

Overall it is slightly above 50% (51.8519%)

Nilla overall is about 36%

5 in 6 to fail would mean a 16.6% success rate.

Given that 33.3% are hits on the initial roll, and 50% (its more but we will use 50%) chance to scatter to a position where you can assault.

That alone is approx 66% chance to land where you can assault, Much more than the 16.6% that you claim.

After the roll.

You kno0w what would be fun and useful? If Dante's Tactical Precision stacked with Heroic intervention. It would make a powerful deathstar unit. Keep then in reserve, pick a victim and Deepstrike tham next to it, including lots of PW and guns. Then assault.


Obviously you can't.