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Hello, im new to the site and my first topic was to ask for peoples thoughts on my home-made rules for Cypher the fallen angel.

in my first copy of the rules here is how Cypher played out.
WS:5
BS:5
S:4
T:4
W:3
I:5
A:3
LD:10
SV:3+
PTS:185

Warger: master crafted bolt and plasma pistol, power armor, F & K grenades, melta bombs
Special rules: Fearless, IC, Rites of battle, Gun-slinger, The hunt, Shadowed fate

Gun-slinger: Cypher may use both pistols in the same turn, in addition he is treated as having a MC power weapon and a MC close combat weapon in melee

The hunt: all fallen angels under Cypher gain the prefered enemy special rule when facing Dark Angels, however all fallen angel units are worth twice their normal kill-points or victory points (whichever is in use) in this way Cypher is worth 3 times his normal kill-points or victory points

Shadowed fate: Cypher is immune to instant death, and recieves a 3+ invulnerable save

there is also a section of his rules that alter the Dark Angel codex to better reflect the Fallen but for times sake i will leave that out.

so to give a sense of his battle field effect i have played him in 4 games thus far, and i came across two major issues.
1: my Fallen army is very infantry oriented, and they died far too easily
2: Cypher by definition is a close range fighter and he couldent get to the enemy before his unit died, and he usually lived a turn or two longer, but he never really made any noticable impact before he died.
many of my opponents liked him and they all told me i should lower his points to somewhere between 160-170 points, but instead my idea was to give all fallen under Cypher the option to take stealth for +X points per model, and give Cypher and any squad he is with the option to infultrate.

what to you guys think?

PS: i am sorry for any spelling or grammer errors, i am only human after all.

I know that I would find it easier to understand this bloke's value and what not if I saw the fallen army as a whole? (well, the changes which went into the dark angels army to make them fallen). I think that the giving them special rules is a good idea, I'd say have a look at the Black Templar's codex, because I think they can purchase some special rules for their troops? Alternatively there is a thread kicking around here somewhere which is about the whole special rules topic. Fallen being really old, tricksy and badass space marines, I figure they should get a crack at at least some special abilities (within reason though, it'd require trial and error).

More on topic...
CYPHER IS AN AWESOME CHARACTER
seriously, I love this dude. I know he's meant to be evil but I would love him to some how end up good and doing something cool with the lion's sword and all that....

And ACTUALLY on topic...
I like the kill point alteration, but would this really make sense against, say, Tyranids? What do space bugs care for what some Astartes did 10,000 years ago? The Hive Mind is so above their pettiness.
Love gunslinger (pew pew pew) and reflects the model's coolness on the table really well. Although I don't know why it has to count as an MC close combat weapon, because if you have a MC power weapon you get your reroll for master-craft, and since you are using the master-crafted power weapon, p.42 says that all your attacks are made with it, meaning the MC on the regular CCW won't have any effect that I can see.
Shadowed fate is ok, but you could probably tone it down a bit to a 4+ Invulnerable save, especially if you are thinking of giving him stealth (canny sneaking will give him a 3+ cover most of the time, and if he fails an invulnerable save then who cares, he wont die)
Not sure on points and what not, but using the Dark Angel's Company Master as a base...That dude with a plasma pistol, power weapon and melta bombs (and a 4++, no EW, etc. i assume you know what he has) is 135
You add some special rules, eternal warrior, a 3++ instead of 4++, MC some weapons, doesn't sound too bad for 50 points (which is what your guy then is).

In summary, I THINK CYPHER IS AWESOME...and I think these rules do a pretty good job of capturing him, but again, would be cool to see your fallen version of the DA codex

thanks for the feedback motyak, and you are right it would have been best to include his "army alterations" so i will do that now

An army of Fallen led by Cypher looses access to the following units from codex
Dark Angels. All special characters, interrogator-chaplains, chaplains, librarians, command-squads,
deathwing terminators, dreadnoughts, scout squads, tactical squads, assault squads,
ravenwing attack squadrons, ravenwing support squadrons, devastators, land-raiders,
land-raider crusaders, whirlwind, vindicator, razorback, and drop-pods

many would see the VAST number of units that are lost and gasp, but i removed them to try and get the feeling that this is an army that has been staying in the shadows for 10,000 years. i have also been asked why i removed tactical, assault, and devistator marines, i did this because...

an army led by Cypher, company veterans become a troop choice, and they
gain additional benefits listed below.

Company Veterans may take jump-packs for +7 points per model, and in this case they
become a fast attack option.

Company veterans may exchange all of their equipment and options for terminator armor,
storm bolter, and power weapon for +10 points per model. in addition they gain the
following options.
any model may take a power-fist for +10 pts
one model may take a chain-fist for +15 pts
one model may take a heavy-flamer for +5 pts, or an assault cannon for +30 pts
if company veterans are taken in this way than they become an elite option and become 0-1

Company veterans may take up to four of the following
Heavy-bolter or Multi-melta +15 pts
Missile launcher +20 pts
Plasma-Cannon +25 pts
Lascannon +35 pts
if the company veterans take 2 or more of these options than they become a heavy support
option.

in this way i have tried to stay true to the sense that all fallen are veterans

as for some of the things you said before "The Hunt" rule only applies when playing against Dark Angels. my thinking behind the MC close combat weapon was that Cypher would get 2 rerolls in Melee, however if thats not how it would work then i guess i made a mistake . and now that you mention it the 3+ invulnerable would become very odd when coupled with stealth so i will change that.

Oh oops I missed that dark angels bit in 'the hunt'.

I like those changes, so glad to see you didn't keep deathwing and try to justify it.

Don't take the MC Close Combat Weapon thing as gospel, I could well be reading it wrong, that's just how I read it.

And yeah, I think being able to take some special rules for those units would be fun, you should have a few games with your mates to try to work it out.

Best of luck

This is an awesome idea. I've wanted to do a Fallen army for awhile, do you have a fandex?

Great job, I really like it. If you want, I think I could help you write out a fandex for these guys, which would be awesome.

Fallen Angels wouldn't really warrant a codex. They don't organize in army sizes for at least a few reasons: 1. they are scattered through time and space 2. there aren't very many of them 3. most of them hate each other too much to get along for something that would take an army to accomplish.

Sorry for the delays guys, collage and all
first let me say thanks for all or your support, i never expected my idea to have so many people behind it.

This is an awesome idea. I've wanted to do a Fallen army for awhile, do you have a fandex?

no, currently i am usind a modified Dark Angels codex for the fallen, but in regards to your post and Lord Magnus's i guess a fallen angels codex might not be such a bad idea. it would give us more flexability to work with the Fallen and it would be more fun, afterall it would be a codex we created.

Fallen Angels wouldn't really warrant a codex. They don't organize in army sizes for at least a few reasons: 1. they are scattered through time and space 2. there aren't very many of them 3. most of them hate each other too much to get along for something that would take an army to accomplish.

i agree that a Fallen codex would be a very rare thing but consider other things that have passed in the game. logically it would be inconcevable to see lucius the eternal and kharn the betrayer on the same battlefield, and evenmore so to see them in the same army as allies, but in the game it is not only possible but also logical to play chaos in this way (fast Melee units with hard hitting ones). we must remember that sometimes unlikely things do happen. besides the way i see it Cypher is a secret good-guy, and he is seeking to redeem the Fallen aswell as strengthen the imperium for the great war that is to come. in this same way the fallen not only would but also have congregated to Cypher, in my opinion because they see him as the last, real chance they have for a returne to grace, so they would most likely fight for him and give there lives to ensure that he achieves his goal.

or maybe he is a evil dude, who knows .

Fallen Brother wrote: logically it would be inconcevable to see lucius the eternal and kharn the betrayer on the same battlefield, and evenmore so to see them in the same army as allies,

That's actually happened in the background on more than one occasion.

Fallen Brother wrote: in this same way the fallen not only would but also have congregated to Cypher, in my opinion because they see him as the last, real chance they have for a returne to grace, so they would most likely fight for him and give there lives to ensure that he achieves his goal.

Cypher is at the top of the list of fallen Dark Angels that do not get along with other fallen Dark Angels. How much they hate each other used to actually be a rule.

Well, we could re-make said rule?

A model armed with a MC Power Weapon and an MC CCW would not receive two MC rerolls, and in fact would not even recieve a bonus attack for two CCWs. A MC Power Weapon is a special weapon, and a MC CCW is a special weapon, so the model must follow the rules for models with multiple special CCWs.

Lol you guys crack me up as I use Cypher all the time in my Fallen army but as a minor IC that leads certain troops such as CSM's, Raptor's a Bikers here is the PDF stats on him. I normally have him lead a 20-man CSM unit. He has always worked well for me except when facing Space Wolf Termie Gunlines.

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 6 4 4 2 5 3 10 3+/4+
Cypher The Fallen
Unit Composition: 1 (Unique) (and unit)
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Master Crafted Bolt Pistol, Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Meltabombs, Power Armour.
Special Rules: Fearless, Stealth, Master Pistolier*, Fallen*, Unidentifiable*, Veteran Skills (same as unit’s).
Master Pistolier*

Cypher may fire both pistols in the same shooting phase. Furthermore in each player turn, Cypher may either fire both pistols twice in the shooting phase or wield them in close combat, allowing him to fight with a Master Crafted Power Weapon. Cypher also counts as only ever firing one shot for the purposes of Gets Hot!.

Fallen* If in close combat against a unit from Codex: Dark Angels then Cypher, the unit of Chosen he is in and any Dark Angels Units in the same combat gain the Preferred Enemy special rule.

Unidentifiable* Cypher can never be Captured or count as any Victory of Kill Points. Furthermore, Cypher cannot be singled out by any ranged attacks by special rules such as Mind War, Sergeant Telion’s Eye of Vengeance, Vindicare Assassins, etc.

Cypher is at the top of the list of fallen Dark Angels that do not get along with other fallen Dark Angels. How much they hate each other used to actually be a rule.

i have never seen any background that states that fallen hate each other, or that cypher hates all of the fallen, afterall he did use to have access to a retinue of fallen, but i will concede and say that you are right on this subject. this, however, is OLD fluff. the games background changes and evolves over time. it has been over 10 years since the 3rd edition chaos codex was released and look at how Cyphers story has changed. before he was essentially a chaos lord that loved to spread chaos and anarchy, he also carried the sword of luther because he intended to kill the emperor with it. now it has been proven that he doesnot carry the sword of luther (this was in a dark angel story whos name escapes me at the moment) leaving two possibilities
1. it is infact the sword of the lion, but that beg's the question, why would he carry his sire-fathers holy sword if his motives were evil.
2. he just carrys around some big, broken sword for S&G
then theres the whole chaos, and anarchy part. every world Cypher has touched recently has gone crazy (not very good for Cypher's good-guy case) until you realize that in the aftermath of every conflict the world has emerged stronger, and with a greater faith in the emperor than before. meaning either Cypher is rubbish at trying to cause civil unrest, or this was part of his plan all along. to strengthen the imperium through conflict.

but aside from back-story, as i said before sometimes rare things do happen. think about it, who are the most evil, manipulative characters in 40K? the chaos gods, and we all know that the chaos gods hate eachother to no end. yet they have united before, and not just once, but many times. so why is it so inconcevable that the fallen would ever work together? in the fluff it stated that one SM company, consisting of 100 marines plus tanks, is one of the greatest forces around. as i see it there must be atleast 20,000 fallen left that are not aligned with chaos, dead, or have just given up on fighting altogether. so 100 of 20,000 is not such a big thing when you think about it, especially when coupled with that fact that they are following Cypher, or some other fallen who commands respect.

this is just my opinion, call me wrong but im an optimist.

back on topic, thanks MasterSlowPoke i wasnt aware of that. now i can better work out his rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I want to thank all those people again for their feedback on my rules for Cypher. Also i have decided that i will tackle a fan-dex for the fallen that i will post up on this section in future when the dex is finished. If you are interested in the idea of the Fallen dex and want to give your support or if you even want to assist me in my venture then sent me a private message and we will give this our best effort, Cheers.

DarknessEternal wrote:Fallen Angels wouldn't really warrant a codex. They don't organize in army sizes for at least a few reasons: 1. they are scattered through time and space 2. there aren't very many of them 3. most of them hate each other too much to get along for something that would take an army to accomplish.

If I was to write up a fallen fandex then, would it be better if the fallen were leaders and elites, with troops being renegade guardsmen/cultists and mutants?
Could one or a group of the Fallen conceivably organize such an army?

(Could one or a group of the Fallen conceivably organize such an army? ) Yes, as there is a PDF book on Cypher the Fallen.

Its a decent version I guess I could post it?

Nice army you have their. Probably the beast fan-made set of rules I've seen so far.
Out of curiosity, are company veterans troops?

LordWynne wrote:Lol you guys crack me up as I use Cypher all the time in my Fallen army but as a minor IC that leads certain troops such as CSM's, Raptor's a Bikers here is the PDF stats on him. I normally have him lead a 20-man CSM unit. He has always worked well for me except when facing Space Wolf Termie Gunlines.

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 6 4 4 2 5 3 10 3+/4+
Cypher The Fallen
Unit Composition: 1 (Unique) (and unit)
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Master Crafted Bolt Pistol, Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Meltabombs, Power Armour.
Special Rules: Fearless, Stealth, Master Pistolier*, Fallen*, Unidentifiable*, Veteran Skills (same as unit’s).
Master Pistolier*

Cypher may fire both pistols in the same shooting phase. Furthermore in each player turn, Cypher may either fire both pistols twice in the shooting phase or wield them in close combat, allowing him to fight with a Master Crafted Power Weapon. Cypher also counts as only ever firing one shot for the purposes of Gets Hot!.

Fallen* If in close combat against a unit from Codex: Dark Angels then Cypher, the unit of Chosen he is in and any Dark Angels Units in the same combat gain the Preferred Enemy special rule.

Unidentifiable* Cypher can never be Captured or count as any Victory of Kill Points. Furthermore, Cypher cannot be singled out by any ranged attacks by special rules such as Mind War, Sergeant Telion’s Eye of Vengeance, Vindicare Assassins, etc.

Give credit where it's due, without making it sound like your work...

I Made Those Cypher Rules.

lol I think your right I got it off one of your sites and I love it... ty for putting it up


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I love Cypher as he is an Elite choice and has a few units that are Troops that he can lead. This PDF even makes Abby enjoyable to play now, no more eye poking on 1's. Just drop the deamon weapon and switch to the lightning claw is a cool upgrade to a poke in the eye.

Hold on...didn't GW release a Cypher model, complete with rules?
I'm sure I saw him on their site.

They sure did
http://unforgivenangels.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/lord-cypher2.jpg
Pretty awesome model in my opinion

Automatically Appended Next Post:
wait rules? not sure on that. I saw him in a batrep in days gone by, so i guess so

Sorry for the long delay, I have been working on the Fallen Angel codex.

Yes, GW did release a model for Cypher, but I don't like it as it doesn't really capture his gunslinger persona.
And as for the rules. GW last released rules for him in 1999 in the 3rd edition chaos codex. They re-released rules for him in a white dwarf some time back but I don't have that copy of his rules and I'm sure it's no longer legal

Type: Elites
Points: 150
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 4 4 2 5 3 10 3+/4+
Cypher The Fallen
Unit Composition: 1 (Unique) (and unit)
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Master Crafted Bolt Pistol, Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Meltabombs, Power Armour.
Special Rules: Fearless, Independent Character, Gun Slinger, Hunt for the Fallen, Fallen Angels, Mysterious Patron. .

Gunslinger: Cypher may fire both pistols in the same shooting phase. Both pistols count as a single power weapon in close combat (note: Single Power weapon means he does not get +1A for having 2 CC weapons).

Hunt for the Fallen: Cypher and any unit he has joined gains Preferred Enemy: Dark Angels. Likewise, any enemy unit of Dark Angels in CC with Cypher and his unit also gains the preferred enemy USR. Enemy units containing Dark Angels chaplains/equivalent within 12” of Cypher and his unit gain the Rage USR.

Fallen Angels: Cypher may be accompanied by a single unit of Fallen Angels. Fallen Angels count as Dark Angels Veterans (not sure of the exact name). If Cypher and his Fallen Angels do not take a transport, they may enter the battle using Deep Strike (to emphasise Cypher and his cohort mysteriously appearing/being discovered on the battlefield). Cypher and his Fallen Angels follow the retinue rules found in the 40k Rule book. Cypher and his unit count as a single elites choice.

Mysterious Patron: Cypher has a mysterious patron that warps him out of danger. Cypher does not confer Victory or Kill Points.

candy.man wrote:Type: Elites
Points: 150
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 4 4 2 5 3 10 3+/4+
Cypher The Fallen
Unit Composition: 1 (Unique) (and unit)
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Master Crafted Bolt Pistol, Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Meltabombs, Power Armour.
Special Rules: Fearless, Independent Character, Gun Slinger, Hunt for the Fallen, Fallen Angels, Mysterious Patron. .

Gunslinger: Cypher may fire both pistols in the same shooting phase. Both pistols count as a single power weapon in close combat (note: Single Power weapon means he does not get +1A for having 2 CC weapons).

Hunt for the Fallen: Cypher and any unit he has joined gains Preferred Enemy: Dark Angels. Likewise, any enemy unit of Dark Angels in CC with Cypher and his unit also gains the preferred enemy USR. Enemy units containing Dark Angels chaplains/equivalent without 12” of Cypher and his unit gain the Rage USR.

Fallen Angels: Cypher may be accompanied by a single unit of Fallen Angels. Fallen Angels count as Dark Angels Veterans (not sure of the exact name). If Cypher and his Fallen Angels do not take a transport, they may enter the battle using Deep Strike (to emphasise Cypher and his cohort mysteriously appearing/being discovered on the battlefield). Cypher and his Fallen Angels follow the retinue rules found in the 40k Rule book. Cypher and his unit count as a single elites choice.

Mysterious Patron: Cypher has a mysterious patron that warps him out of danger. Cypher does not confer Victory or Kill Points.

Are those his official rules?

Just fluff not official lol

His old rules were something along these lines:

He had Master-crafted pistols, a power weapon, the same stats as a current Chaos Lord with the WS & BS swapped around as well as initiative 8!
He's an elites choice for Chaos or Imperial Guard, costs ~150pts and is an independent character.
If he joins a squad you roll a D6 each turn and on a 1 all members do not do anything for the rest of the turn. This doesn't effect Cypher himself or Fallen Angels which are effectively Chosen CSM's with ATSKNF.
He has a 4++ on 3D6 against any attack that reduces him to 0 wounds, if this save is passed then he is removed from the game but doesn't count towards victory points.
He can fire both pistols and/or fire them twice if he remains stationary.
Deathwing or Ravenwing must charge him if they can.

----

The Cypher in my Chaos Space Marine Fandex (linked in my signature), looks like this: