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Hi

I'm assembling a mechdar list. The basics are:

autarch; fusion gun, PW
farseer; doom; stones; guide etc (could become Yriel)
2 x 5 man DAVU falcons; holo; stones etc
3 x 5 man fire dragons in WS; star engine; stones etc
10 DA with twingun exarch; bladestorm in WS; star; stones etc

The other stuff is variable but I've been toying with a Wraithlord with BL and EML (slow but tough fire support) plus a few bits n pieces to fill it out eg maybe some vipers. The list is 1750.

Now before you think this is a list question and in the wrong place, I was wondering how this kind of list would go versing an Ork list with lots of boys, or a Nids list with lots of bods. It could be in danger of being swamped, or being forced to keep everyone in the tanks and avoid combat, staying back to just fire the tanks guns.

I'd be interested to hear about tactics from some of you eldar players...

Well, I'd include a Seer Council. Its one of the units in the game when it comes to fighting Orks or Nids.

Well Eldar have one thing that works against everything; S6 SPAM. Prisms are also good against Hordes, as are Night Spinners.

With a horde army, you are correct that if they get in close you can be in real trouble. However, there are ways to try to mitigate their overwhelming numbers advantage.

- Star Engines. Whether on a Wave Serpent or throw away Vypers, these can be utilized to block/force your opponent to deal with them. If you get first turn, you can move 24" to get close to the horde. Shoot whatever you can from the rest of the army, then use Star Engines to move again at the end of your shooting phase to start blocking/restricting their movement. Now, they need to deal with vehicles right in front of them and even if they assault, they need 6's to hit and even if they destroy the vehicles, they don't get a consolidate move to make up for lost movement. Plus, the vehicle is either difficult terrain (explodes) or dangerous/difficult terrain (wreck).

-Nightspinner. When facing hordes, I'd take 1 or 2 of these for HS. The dangerous terrain test frustrates horde players and ensure they play it per the FAQ (take the test on a per model basis). Also, try to lay the template down where it is touching two different units.

-3 x War Walkers, Scatterlasers. If you put Guide on them, that is 18 hits and averages 15 wounds on most infantry.

-Seer Councils/Storm Guardians: This may be a bit of list tailoring, but Destructor and Flamer templates can be a bit silly, especially if you've been able to funnel a horde army (see first piece of advice). A big point about Seer Councils is with Fortune, they can be a great tarpit unit to further block up movement. Put them on Jetbikes and it gets even better due to improved toughness and save (plus, they can block faster).

@ Sarigar. Tri Flamer Storm Guardians is hardly tailoring, they beat Dire Avengers for damage output even against Marines and are definitely a solid troop option. A Council on the other hand really requires that you build your list around them, its not exactly tailoring but I still wouldn't recommend it.

That list is solid, definitely don't take a Wraithlord in that list though. For one thing its incredibly slow compared to the rest of the list, but they are also fairly easy to kill with shooting and are terrible against most hordes because they have no damage output in combat (so get eaten by hidden Power Klaws etc). Vypers on the other hand would work well, they give you some more S6 shooting and are good blocking units. Otherwise a Prism or Night Spinner to fill out your Heavy slots would definitely be a good idea (not just against hordes). I personally avoid War Walkers in a list like this because they can't keep up with the rest of your army which also slows everything else down because your Farseer gets tied to them (without Guide they aren't amazing).

It really depends on the specific army list, but there are some general things you can do against horde lists. Target priority and sticking to the mission become very important, you can't be a rabbit in the headlights or you will get overrun. Your main defence is your speed, back off if you don't want to commit and keep shooting, then jump in fast and hard when you do commit. Assuming they are assault based (which all horde lists tend to be) it should be Turn 3-5 (depends on speed) before they come into contact with anything, which doesn't give them much time to do damage. Against both Orks and Nids your priority is removing ranged anti tank options, because once they are gone they will really struggle to kill your skimmers as long as you keep moving. For Orks this means Lootas and any unit with multiple Rokkit shots and for Nids Hive Guard (you really don't care about Zoanthropes with Warding), all of which die (or break) easily to focused Scatter Laser fire. Against Nids the Fire Dragons should be used to remove MCs which are in threatening positions and against Orks either Battlewagons or Nobz.

The only 'horde' list which this list, and indeed Eldar lists in general will really struggle against are BA Jumper lists. You can take a heap of S6 shooting with Eldar but it does almost nothing against 30+ Marines with FNP which can move 12" per turn.

When looking at what is in your army, it can be a bit of a challenge. Your Falcons are pricey and won't deal with hordes very well. However, they may prove to be durable and deny your opponent KPs or you can still tank shock onto objectives late game. Fire Dragons will have to go after MCs, Mega Armor Nobz or Killa Kanz which are not uncommon in horde lists. I would imagine the Farseer sticks with the large DA squad to make use of Guide and Doom. Overall, with the army you describe, focus on the mission as I don't think you have quite enough shooting or assault to dominate the other army.

How would you fine tune it to add that bit more shooting while still remaining mobile mechdar?

Powerguy wrote:@ Sarigar. Tri Flamer Storm Guardians is hardly tailoring

They are never taken in all-comers lists, therefore it is tayloring.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Powerguy wrote:@ Sarigar. Tri Flamer Storm Guardians is hardly tailoring

They are never taken in all-comers lists, therefore it is tayloring.

I don't consider it tailoring at all. I have a unit of them in my tournament list (which has several top 10 finishes, including a 2nd on BP in the last year) and they regularly do very well. I have also seen plenty of other tournament list which make use of them, both in online lists and at actual tournaments. You also managed to cut off the key part of that sentence, where I point out that they have a better damage output than Avengers even against MEQ. They also are better in combat (can easily take on Guard, Tau and a host of other units), have more bodies, don't drop in damage output until they are completely wiped (since you have 8 meatshields), are cheaper than a big Bladestorm and can hurt vehicles thanks to the Witchblade on the Warlock. The only disadvantage being that they have a lower effective range (you are in a Serpent so its not a big issue, and as soon as you get out of a transport you expect to die whether you are Avengers or Guardians) and they cost twice as much as a DAVU squad, which means basing your entire list around them doesn't work because it gets expensive, but they are by far the best offensive option Eldar have for troops so a mix of DAVU and Guardians work well.

@ Gop. Honestly there isn't really much more you can do with that list without tailoring and redesigning it from the ground up just to deal with hordes, its a good all comers list. The only obvious things to cut are the Star Engines, you really have no reason to need to go that fast since you don't want to get in close fast (Dragons should be timed to hit hard and hopefully live for a turn rather than moving flat out and suiciding to kill something) and can get away from just about everything else anyway. Its actually incredibly similar to the list I run at 1750. I have 2 small units of Harlies with Fusion Pistols in place of 2 units of Dragons (they steal Serpents off Avengers, who ride in Falcons), Flamer Guardians in place of the Bladestorm unit and a Vyper which runs around being annoying. My Falcons currently have Scatters and underslung Cannons which put out plenty of shots, but will get changed to EML + underslung if I don't get my DE done in time for my next tournament (mostly to deal with the increase in AV12 Dreads - GK in particular). To get to 1850 (which is the standard tournament size here) I trim a couple of upgrades and add a Prism.

Pretty much everything in the Eldar codex is overpriced (apart from Dragons) so you tend to always feel slightly outgunned or outnumbered. You counter this with good tactics and avoiding mistakes basically. Use vehicles (Vypers being the obvious choice) to block, tank shock and slow down an advance. Push expendable units forward to bait/force your opponent to deal with them to slow them down while the rest of your force backs off. If you just back off with everything all the time then you will run out of table. Also make sure you stay spread out, or rather split around his flanks to force him to spread out as well, which then gives you opportunities to take out units which get slightly out of position. Since you can fire to full effect on the move you should be able to keep chipping away till turn 4+ before you either have to Flat Out to get out of dodge or jump forward and disembark to finish units off (which one depends on how much damage you have done, how much you have taken and whether its KP or objectives). Never let a vehicle which has moved less than 6" get assaulted, you have almost no reason to move slowly. Certainly you should never be giving him multi charges (except in unavoidable situations like Dragons jumping out next to a Serpent to kill a Battlewagon etc). As a general rule I tend to completely ignore units which can't hurt my vehicles until turn 3, if you are still mobile turn 4-5 then you should on track for a win.

this is good stuff thanks for sharing, particularly powerguy as always

if you are thinking about uriel i would drop the autarch instead of the seer, as he has the same rules as an autarch (being one lol) and you want that seer boosting your army. funny thing to try, put a seer with five locks in a falcon with a scatter and undr slung cannon. it puts out a great amount of shots wich can be guided by the seer, plus you don't need that big a council to take hordes out if you remember to cooperate with other units first. i had a game against a nid player who thought he had caught my army only to realise that none of the units near my tanks had an actual chance of stopping my tanks, while i had been setting up all his units and positioning mine so that optimal charges and shooting ensued (scorpions punking gaunts(which works fine if you have set up the assault from the beginning), fire dragons insta wacking warriors and, coolest of all, my farseer took on a mighty mawlock with his mind war and killed a freshly entered mawlock by causing 7!! wounds to it.
btw i would also look into maybe going for the two seers to get those nice overall forcemultiplyers which in my mind is what makes the eldar unique and strong. hope i helps.

Powerguy wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Powerguy wrote:@ Sarigar. Tri Flamer Storm Guardians is hardly tailoring

They are never taken in all-comers lists, therefore it is tayloring.

I don't consider it tailoring at all. I have a unit of them in my tournament list (which has several top 10 finishes, including a 2nd on BP in the last year) and they regularly do very well. I have also seen plenty of other tournament list which make use of them, both in online lists and at actual tournaments. You also managed to cut off the key part of that sentence, where I point out that they have a better damage output than Avengers even against MEQ. They also are better in combat (can easily take on Guard, Tau and a host of other units), have more bodies, don't drop in damage output until they are completely wiped (since you have 8 meatshields), are cheaper than a big Bladestorm and can hurt vehicles thanks to the Witchblade on the Warlock. The only disadvantage being that they have a lower effective range (you are in a Serpent so its not a big issue, and as soon as you get out of a transport you expect to die whether you are Avengers or Guardians) and they cost twice as much as a DAVU squad, which means basing your entire list around them doesn't work because it gets expensive, but they are by far the best offensive option Eldar have for troops so a mix of DAVU and Guardians work well.

@ Gop. Honestly there isn't really much more you can do with that list without tailoring and redesigning it from the ground up just to deal with hordes, its a good all comers list. The only obvious things to cut are the Star Engines, you really have no reason to need to go that fast since you don't want to get in close fast (Dragons should be timed to hit hard and hopefully live for a turn rather than moving flat out and suiciding to kill something) and can get away from just about everything else anyway. Its actually incredibly similar to the list I run at 1750. I have 2 small units of Harlies with Fusion Pistols in place of 2 units of Dragons (they steal Serpents off Avengers, who ride in Falcons), Flamer Guardians in place of the Bladestorm unit and a Vyper which runs around being annoying. My Falcons currently have Scatters and underslung Cannons which put out plenty of shots, but will get changed to EML + underslung if I don't get my DE done in time for my next tournament (mostly to deal with the increase in AV12 Dreads - GK in particular). To get to 1850 (which is the standard tournament size here) I trim a couple of upgrades and add a Prism.

Pretty much everything in the Eldar codex is overpriced (apart from Dragons) so you tend to always feel slightly outgunned or outnumbered. You counter this with good tactics and avoiding mistakes basically. Use vehicles (Vypers being the obvious choice) to block, tank shock and slow down an advance. Push expendable units forward to bait/force your opponent to deal with them to slow them down while the rest of your force backs off. If you just back off with everything all the time then you will run out of table. Also make sure you stay spread out, or rather split around his flanks to force him to spread out as well, which then gives you opportunities to take out units which get slightly out of position. Since you can fire to full effect on the move you should be able to keep chipping away till turn 4+ before you either have to Flat Out to get out of dodge or jump forward and disembark to finish units off (which one depends on how much damage you have done, how much you have taken and whether its KP or objectives). Never let a vehicle which has moved less than 6" get assaulted, you have almost no reason to move slowly. Certainly you should never be giving him multi charges (except in unavoidable situations like Dragons jumping out next to a Serpent to kill a Battlewagon etc). As a general rule I tend to completely ignore units which can't hurt my vehicles until turn 3, if you are still mobile turn 4-5 then you should on track for a win.

For clarification, I lumped the Storm Guardians and Seer Council together because of the flamer templates. I don't think it's overly realistic to see an all comers army with a Seer Council with lots of Destructor Warlocks in addition to multiple Storm Guardian Flamer/Destructor units. If someone is running both of these unit combos, it would be extremely rare in my opinion, thus my caveat about list tailoring. Not saying impossible, but not likely.

Regarding Storm Guardian;. not knocking the unit, but it's not my particular style of play. To effectively get the 3 templates in a good position, the unit will become fairly exposed. They will get one shot off and typically get assaulted the following turn (in relation to a horde list). And with enough Ork bodies (for example), they will multi assault and take out the the Guardian transport. Off the top of my head, I'm risking 127 points of a Troop choice and a minimum 100 point transport for that one shot. I'm sure some folks make it work, but it is not a tactic I'm comfortable employing.