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*List Appended, see post six*

Let me first start by saying I'm competing in local tournaments, not national meta.

I'd like to get a chaos army because I like the fluff/models, but I need something that will be fun and works. Before I start shelling at the cash for forgeworld world eater bits I wanted to get Dakka's opinion on how such a list would fare, and any changes to make that still keep the feel of the army. This would be my third army, and i'm willing to trade some competitive flare to have a really awesome, characterful army so keep that in mind.

HQ
Chaos Lord, Bloodfeeder, MoK, Plasma Pistol

This guy goes with the berserkers. I love the psycological threat that the bloodfeeder provides - sure it could do nothing, or it could whipe an entire squad and your opponent has to respond. I don't take a prince because the entire list is mech and I don't want to give targets for small arms fire. Plasma Pistol because I had 20 points of padding, and he has good BS.

Elites
Dreadnought, Dual CCW
Dreadnought, Dual CCW

Walkers add flexibility to the list and help with AV saturation. Tar pit unit while the other guys are busy.

Troops
9 Berskers, 2 Plasma Pistol, Skull Champ with fist, Rhino with extra bolter (extra hit point for glancing to death)
10 Berskers, 2 Plasma Pistol, Skull Champ with fist, Rhino
10 CSM, 2 Melta, Champ with fist, MoK, Rhino
10 CSM, 2 Melta, Champ with fist, MoK, Rhino

The lord goes in the 9 man rhino - I had extra points so I gave that rhino an extra bolter to give it an extra HP for glancing to death. I personally like plasma and the CSM provide much needed anti tank. MoK CSM and zerkers put out the same number of attacks, minus furious charge so I can still get this unit stuck in with good results. Fists everywhere is good utility and it should always go off.

Heavy Support
Las Predator (turret and sponsons)
Las Predator

The list needs ranged anti-tank - here it is.

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What do you guys think? Could it work, or will I get shot off the board? AV saturation, smoke, and 'can't kill everyone' is the name of the game.

I wouldn't take a plasma pistol on an HQ normally, nor would i if i only had one and i really wouldn't want one if he already had a daemon weapon, thats a lot of chances he has to kill himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe you could drop the dreads and get some oblits, and i personally would take kharn instead of the lord

Bloodfeeder is a terrible weapon; there's an ~31% chance that your Lord will take a wound and do nothing. Dual claws are better.

Dread are also very risky. Tri-Defiler with two CCW work very well in an all Khorne list, so I'd drop the Dreads for points and take these over the Predators.

Also, drop the Plasma Pistols; they are very expensive, plus you want your Berserker units to last until round 2 of a combat so they don't just get shot when the enemy dies.

How fluffy are you talking with World Eaters matching up with your rules? Would Terminators with Lightning Claws and Mark of Slaanesh (but no Slaanesh iconography) fit? I'll echo that Dreads aren't a good unit in CSM, and CC Dreads even less so. Defilers do the same thing but better if you have the open FOC slots.

The other good choice is Daemonic Possessed Vindicators. They have less range than the Las Predators, but they do pack a punch.

I actually play tested this list against a grey knights player and I beat him in capture and control - I had 3 berserkers and a squad of CSM alive, and he had two immobilized psyfleman dreads so - blood for the blood god!

The predators did 'okay' but spent most of the game stunned. I'm tempted to drop them for 4x autocannon havocs. The dreads actually did pretty well - one fire frenzied right before the charge, but the other killed both a purifier and grey knight squad by himself. I understand that chaos dreads are iffy - totally get it - but I feel having the walkers aids the list and they are cheaper than defilers.

The plasma pistols, while fluffy, I think killed one guy and thats a lot of points so I'm dropping them.

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To the terminator idea, I actually tried it for awhile but its just soo expensive to make work. You either deep strike and get killed, or have to buy a land raider.

The Lord's build is still the biggest issue with the list though. Having a guy that only attacks 69% of the time is hardly a sound investment, especially when the other 31% of the time he not only doesn't attack but also wounds himself; note also in a CC army like yours he should also be seeing enough rounds of close combat that he comes close to killing himself on average per game. Dual Lightning Claws is the way to go for a Khorne Lord.

HQ
Lord with Bloodfeeder, Mok 140

Troops
10 Berserkers, Power Fist Champ, Rhino
9 Berserkers, Power Fist Champ, Rhino with extra bolter
10 CSM, MoK, 2 Melta, Fist Champ, Rhino
10 CSM, MoK, 2 Melta, Fist Champ, Rhino
5 Bloodletters (extra scoring unit)

Elites
Dual DCCW Dread
Dual DCCW Dread

Heavy Support
6 Havocs, 2 autocannon, 2 heavy bolter, Icon of Chaos Glory (modeled as MoK)
6 Havocs, 2 autocannon, 2 heavy bolter, Icon of Chaos Glory (modeled as MoK)

*Edit* - I'll concede the point on the lightning claws being more efficient, I just really want that chaos lord with the axe and pistol as my HQ if I can help it. I'm well aware the the expected number of wounds essentially ties a pair of lightning claws. I also have a chaos demon army so a little bit of negative randomness doesn't bother me - like I said this is a showcase army that hopefully doesn't get last place when I play it.

If you want an axe on the model then give him a Power Weapon.

Interested how you plan on dealing with Land Raiders? Glancing to death with Fists isn't viable, and the Dreads will be lucky to make it to combat with one. Similarly, anything AV13 even is giving you awful problems, and even AV12 is going to be a headache. This again is another place the Defilers come in handy for this sort of list.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Bloodfeeder is a terrible weapon; there's an ~31% chance that your Lord will take a wound and do nothing. Dual claws are better.

Dread are also very risky. Tri-Defiler with two CCW work very well in an all Khorne list, so I'd drop the Dreads for points and take these over the Predators.

Also, drop the Plasma Pistols; they are very expensive, plus you want your Berserker units to last until round 2 of a combat so they don't just get shot when the enemy dies.

Or, if you can use a daemon prince, DP + MoK + Wings is pretty effective slaughterer.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Bloodfeeder is a terrible weapon; there's an ~31% chance that your Lord will take a wound and do nothing. Dual claws are better.

Dread are also very risky. Tri-Defiler with two CCW work very well in an all Khorne list, so I'd drop the Dreads for points and take these over the Predators.

Also, drop the Plasma Pistols; they are very expensive, plus you want your Berserker units to last until round 2 of a combat so they don't just get shot when the enemy dies.

Or, if you can use a daemon prince, DP + MoK + Wings is pretty effective slaughterer.

This is true.

Eh, I won't debate someone who in one breath says a dreadnought can't handle a land raider but a defiler somehow can, considering they are both av12 walkers and last I checked a vehicle can out run a fleet walker.

The defiler handles hordes and gets stuck into melee, but I'm much more worried about an S8 plate scattering onto my troops than bloodfeeder stabbing my lord.

There are a total of 3 land raiders in my local meta (as singles), so stacking my list to handle AV14 is a losing proposition. I need to able to handle AV10/11 spam and I'm just as likely to get pared against green tide, nids as I am mechanized marines. Taking a defiler isn't going to control the map against the fast lists I often face, or put out the dakka to break kan wall or kill 8 MC's.

Dual LC's ... 6 attacks on the charge, 2/3 to hit, 3/4 to wound against T4 means 3 wounds. A bloodfeeder does 0 wounds 31% of the time, and 14 hits (average roll of an 8) leading to 4.7 wounds the 69% of the time. Roll it up, you get 3.22 expected wounds against T4 and the majority of the time it will be superior. The bloodfeeder essentially ties the LC's, with a much higher upside potential. I'm perfectly fine with the variance, so stop beating the dead horse and move on.

Firstly, the reason the Defiler can manage mech more than the Dread is because your Dread set-up has no ranged weapons so has to catch them in combat, whereas the Defiler can shoot its Battle Cannon as it advances. Furthermore, no, a tank cannot move further than a Fleeting walker (tank move 12" most, Defiler can move 6", Fleet D6" and then Assault it another 6") when the Walker is aiming to charge it.

I also note that you completely ignored the AV12-13 aspect of my argument.

Then again, maybe I shouldn't try argue without someone who thinks a pie plate is more likely to scatter onto his troops in turns 1 and 2 (when his troops are nowhere near the enemy yet) than a Daemon Weapon who wounds his wielder 31% of the time is going to :rolleyes:

Seriously though, not taking advise is a choice everyone has the right to, but posting lists for advise and then insulting people for disagreeing with you, especially when you don't bother to read the whole post (or intentionally ignore part of it, I don't know which) is bad form. So please get a grip and learn a little respect mate.

Eh, no need for the personal attack. I can post the list for advice and then choose to not take it. I appreciate the feedback, just with my meta I don't feel the defilers will be competitive for the reasons I sated.

I liked the idea of dropping the plasma pistols and used those points on what I felt was an improvement, so I did take part of your advice. I play tested a game and my predators spent the entire game stunned and it pretty much forfeited map control to my opponent. The preds didn't really help me, whereas 16 autocannon rounds would have, with the extra benefit that a single multi melta can't take them off the table. My dread's got stuck-in and needing 4's for the opponent's hammer to hit instead of 3's was something a defiler wouldn't offer me - its also a demon so my GK opponent would get PE.

We can take the debate about the defiler else where if you wish, you've said your part about my list and I haven't been convinced the positives you mentioned outweigh the negative I mentioned.

If you want a really fluffy WE army, take you berzerkers in squads of 8. It's Khorne's sacred number in the fluff.
Use the extra points to put combi-melta/plas on the rhinos, or upgrade a few autocannons to lascannons.