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Okay, so hey, this list will be pretty rubbish. That's all I promise , which means that i really need help.

I've got a game soon against an Ork player . I know he plays lots of warbikes and lots of warbuggies, He also has Killa Kanz and Deff Dreads and I think he even has a couple of Battlewagons and some trukks.
He's been playing a lot longer than I have and has played and beaten Tau before, regularly

So, any and all help is apreciated

HQ
XV8 Crisis Shas'O - Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, Hard-wired Multi-tracker, Hard-wired Drone Controller,
2 Shield Drones
= 172
XV8 Crisis Shas'El - Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, Hard-wired Multi-tracker, Hard-wired Drone Controller, 2 Shield Drones
= 127

Elites
XV8 Crisis Team - Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife, Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Targeting Array, Hard-wired Multi-tracker
- 2 Shas'Ui w/ Missile Pods, Plasma Rifles, Multi-trackers
= 206
XV8 Crisis Team - Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife, Missile Pod, Flamer, Multi-tracker
- 2 Shas'Ui w/ Missile Pods, Flamers, Multi-trackers
= 153

Troops
4 Fire Warrior Teams w/
Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Hard-wired Multi-tracker, Marker Lights, Pulse Rifles, Hard-wired Drone Controller, 2 Gun Drones
= 680 (170 each)

Fast Attack
Pathfinder Team - Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife, Hard-wired Drone Controller, 2 Marker Drones
- Devilfish w/ Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger
= 242
Piranha - Fusion Blaster, 2 Seeker Missiles, Targeting Array, Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger,
= 105

Heavy Support
Hammerhead Gunship - Railgun (Submunition), 2 Burst Cannons, Targeting Array, Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger, Blacksun Filter
= 170
Sky Ray Missile Defence Gunship - 6 Seeker Missiles, 2 Networked Markerlights, Targeting Array, 2 Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods
= 140

Total = 1998

I know that my HQ's are a huge points drain but the shield drones should keep them alive for a while and orks aren't known for they're accuracy

My Fire Warriors should probably be in Devilfish's but I want to have as many turns of shooting as possible.
The Fusion Blasters will hopefully be able to deal with anything that can survive the Seeker Missiles
I'm not sure about the submunitions on the Hammerhead but against orks it would be a waste of fire power.

So, as I said, all help and advice is appreciated

The railgun on the hammerhead allows you to fire both solid shot and submunition, you just choose whilst shooting.

Its not a bad list, i would perhaps lessen the amount of troops you bring(Tau troops are expensive, and low ballistic skill the medium strength and average AP cannot be relied on to stop the Orks in their tracks), maybe down to 2 teams of fire warriors and a devilfish, with 1 firewarrior team using the pathfinders devilfish(that means each firewarrior team gets a devilfish each for mobility). This way if orks start that massive tide towards you, move them away so they dont get eaten in close combat. With the extra points perhaps you could get a 2 man Broadside unit to take out the heavier targets with those high strength/low AP twin-linkness. Also for getting rid of those transports early on in the game, make those orks run while you move around them.

Also for the Pathfinders, not to have the drones because without a Target Lock you will be overdoing the amount of markerlights needed to get the job done on a single unit. I usually get the maximum amount of 8 with no upgrades because if you are playing an opponent experienced in fighting Tau, he knows that the pathfinders are a great threat and thus they will be a priority target. Using the Scout move to get them into cover will help their survivability greatly. When you do use them, take out the bikers first but reducing their Exhaust Fumes cover save, this will allow you to take them down faster and deny him from passing that cover save onto units behind him. The skyray's markerlights are useful for those higher ballistic skill markerlights, a bonus I usually give for the Hammerhead to boost it to that wonderful BS5. It reduces the scatter dice range by its ballistic skill according to the BRB, helping you achieve the shot you were aiming for if you miss. And the railgun missing is NEVER good esp when you only get 1 shot per turn, you need to make it count.

I have fought several ork players in the past and one of the most efficient weapons against them apart from Nobs or Warbosses(esp those on bikes) are twin linked flamers. A team of 2-3 crisis-suits with twin linked flamers and missile pods are a great deterrrent when following behind your devilfishes or skyray. This is because of the automatic hit and re-rolling to wound for twin linked flamers(not to mention no cover saves), usually the short range is dangerous for tau but taking out an entire unit of boyz is usually the result of 2-3 suits flaming into the mob. And usually give them missle pods for that added range attacks, since they wont be using the flamers until the orks are close,the missile pods are cheap and efficient to get some extra shots in (use them to hit markerlight targets of your pathfinders).For the tougher units I use plasma rifles, usually giving Shas'Os and Shas'Els twin linked plasma rifles and missle pods. When those lowAP shots hit those targets I want certainty they will wound at max range and those 2 wounds at rapid fire range. Of course give them all multitrackers.

For Tau in 5th edition since the "Run" rule came into play, staying static will get you overrun by greenies and chopped up. Mobility is the greatest ally for us at the moment but we are by no means a fast nor well efficient as we should be at the shooting phase. So dancing around them picking them off slowly is the best way (I found at least) to beat Orks. But thats just how I play I guess. Hope you found it useful.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:XV8 Crisis Shas'O - Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Missile Pod, Shield Generator, Hard-wired Multi-tracker, Hard-wired Drone Controller,
2 Shield Drones

Ha! NooB set up that only allows you to shoot one gun. Instead, demote to Shas'el, with AfP, MP, Target Array, hwMT (to shoot both guns). You don't want a Shield Gen as, odds are, a weapon that causes the Shield Gen to kick in will InstantDeath him, Pfist-LAsCan-ML-Melta, etc. Better that the SDs take the wound.

*BUT* against orks, only Power Klaws & rockets are an issue and if he catches you in h2h, you're likely loosing.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:XV8 Crisis Team - Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife, Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Targeting Array, Hard-wired Multi-tracker
- 2 Shas'Ui w/ Missile Pods, Plasma Rifles, Multi-trackers

Fire Knives are not optimum vs. orks. Go FireStorms - BC/MP, for more dice, and no need of AP2. FSs are far cheaper in points.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:XV8 Crisis Team - Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife, Missile Pod, Flamer, Multi-tracker
- 2 Shas'Ui w/ Missile Pods, Flamers, Multi-trackers

Gods no. Flamers equal getting caught in h2h next turn. FireStorm these as well, good for busting trucks and laying down lotsa dice, AP5/4 dice that kill orks.

Also, split your XV8s into smallest units when possible. With your 6 suits, you could take your two trios, and have three pairs instead, without need of buying Bonding Knives, there's points saved for the 3rd Team LEader. It splits your fire (good for you), splits his fire (bad for him, good for you) and makes it harder to catch in h2h.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:XV8 Crisis Shas'El - Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, Hard-wired Multi-tracker, Hard-wired Drone Controller, 2 Shield Drones

FBs and plasma are not needed versus orks. Yes, there could be Nobs in Armor2+, but FBs are definitely *not* the answer. Again, BC/MP is what I'd order to kill greenskins.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:4 Fire Warrior Teams w/ Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Hard-wired Multi-tracker, Marker Lights, Pulse Rifles, Hard-wired Drone Controller, 2 Gun Drones

Gak, no. Toss the GDs, and MLs. Going gun-line is bad ... do you know if he has Deffkoptas or Kommandos?

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Pathfinder Team - Team Leader w/ Bonding Knife, Hard-wired Drone Controller, 2 Marker Drones
- Devilfish w/ Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger

Good.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Piranha - Fusion Blaster, 2 Seeker Missiles, Targeting Array, Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger,

I'm not a fan of Seekers, considering you can spend the (above) GD points and eventually get a FireStorm. But, the piranha is good.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Hammerhead Gunship - Railgun (Submunition), 2 Burst Cannons, Targeting Array, Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger, Blacksun Filter
Sky Ray Missile Defence Gunship - 6 Seeker Missiles, 2 Networked Markerlights, Targeting Array, 2 Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods

SKyRay? BSF? WTF? Railhead. Go with the Railhead for its submunition large blast.

SkyRay ... Sheesh.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:My Fire Warriors should probably be in Devilfish's but I want to have as many turns of shooting as possible.

If he has Deffkoptas or kommandos, your gun-line is gonna fail pretty fast.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:The Fusion Blasters will hopefully be able to deal with anything that can survive the Seeker Missiles

Against orks they're dead next turn. Depend on the Railheads and piranhas to bust his wagons or kans, with the Markerlights to remove the Cover Save. Go fire knives or Fire Storms

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:I'm not sure about the submunitions on the Hammerhead but against orks it would be a waste of fire power.

No, it wouldn't. The sub-blast is one of the best weapons, especially when MarkerLights toss the Cover Save.

Piranhas try for his wagons and kans first. Rails get Bwagons first then kans. After that, they clear orks off in droves. Be sure to use MLs to eilminate Cover Saves on orks.

Try my recommendations and then get back to me. I'll be surpirsed if you don't give him a decent run for his money.

"Bubble-wrap" your railheads so his deffkoptas can't Turn 1 assault 'em. FireWarrios will do, but Mercenaries would be better. Got Kroot? They'll help tons.

He doesn't have kommandos but he has loads of vehicles

I'll look out for Deffkoptas,
I'll post my new list later after I've made the alterations

Thx for all the help guys and cheers slickvictory

By the way; Brothererekose, I am a noob but my Shas'O did already have a Hard-wired multi-tracker

I'll look at dropping the Sky Ray but I was kind of hoping that against the weak armour of ork vehicles, that the seekers would be useful but I will defer to those with more experience than me because it was a shot in the dark anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok guys, here's the new list. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on the new list and tell me what you think.
I've taken your advice into account and made the changes.
I'm keeping the XV8's with flamer's for the stuff that's close and just has to die.
I'm keeping my Shas'O as is with all the stuff but i'll try to keep him attached to a unit of XV8's at all times to give him extra protection, i know that he's still an expensive point drain but the shield generator will catch anything that gets under the 3+ armour save minimising the chances of him dying but the drones will get the instant death shots.
The Kroot squad is designed around the idea that they are just bubble wrap for the tanks.
Also, I don't know the names for the different suit configurations yet.

HQ
Shas'O - Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, MP, SG, HWMT, HWDC, 2 shield drones = 162
Shas'El - BC, MP, TA, HWMT = 85

Elite
XV8 Crisis team - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, BC, MP, TA, HWMT
- Shas'Ui w/ BC, MP, MT
= 120
XV8 Crisis team - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, BC, MP, TA, HWMT
- Shas'Ui w/ BC, MP, MT
= 120
XV8 Crisis team - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Flamer, MP, TA, HWMT
- Shas'Ui w/ Flamer, MP, MT
= 112

Troop
2 Fire Warrior teams (12) - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pod = 220
Fire warrior team (12) - Team Leader, Bonding Knife = 135
Kroot Kindred - 20 Kroot carnivores, 2 Krootox riders = 210

Fast Attack
Pathfinder team (6) - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pod = 172
Piranha - Fusion Blaster, 2 Seeker Missiles, Targeting Array, Dis. Pod, Flechette Discharger = 105

Heavy Support
Hammerhead Gunship - Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, targeting Array, Dis. Pod, Flechette D, Blacksun Filter = 170
Hammerhead Gunship - Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, targeting Array, Dis. Pod, Flechette D, Blacksun Filter = 170

Total points = 2001

Thanks for your previous advice, any more?

Thanks for the tips about the warbikes and stuff SlickVictory.
I was wondering if i should worry about the warbuggies.
What can they do??

Hope that this list will work, and give him a run for his money, Bothererekose.

I agree with Brothererekose on some parts except the fact that plasma rifles arent important for fighting Orks. As far as I've experienced those rifle shots deny Nob squads the Feel No Pain, ensuring wounds. Taking lots of more Strength5/AP5 weapons are quite unnessesary. The devilfishes have 2/3 weapons each for this task as well as the Hammerhead Sub rounds. The plasma rifles are there to hit the harder targets such as bikers, Nobs, Warbosses and so on, usually having Feel No Pain.

The seeker misssiles on the piranha are a good strategy for me because, you hit your target with the markerlights from the front(pathfinders or skyray) BUT the shot is dependant of the position of the seeker missile to your target. Meaning that a piranha moving flat out across the board behind enemy lines, then the seeker missile can be fired from its position facing the back of your armored target.

The skyray is not as bad as it sounds. the networked markerlights are defensive weapons because they are Strength <4, meaning it can still fire them AND the seeker missiles moving at 12"(given the multitracker making it fire as a fast vehicle). They are as durable as the hammerhead, meaning they are a mobile protection for your suits. I use the skyray to get behind enemy lines and harrass them from behind using the SMS system that does not require TLOS. I gets enough attention away from your main force for you to concentrate firepower on your important targets. When he realises theres seeker missiles and shots coming from behind he wont be able to ignore them for long. Remember the skyrays markerlights is one of the only ways you can get BS4 markerlights(Given the targetting array).

It might just be that Brothererekose plays a different style to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to negate Feel No Pain requires Instant Death,

Nobs and most other orks have Toughness 4 meaning that Plasma rifle doesn't do that but I really did want to keep the Sky Ray in so now i think i will.

I thought the AP 2 of the plasma's might help against any MegaNobs he might bring to the table

So d'you think i should keep them?

Are there any problems taking out warbuggies and stuff the normal way?

sorry, I thought about including XV88 Broadsides but I couldn't find the points for them

is the kroot squad alright or should I be thinking about changing it?

I'll redo my list again and repost it later

On page 75 of the BRB, it explains that the ability(Feel No Pain) cannot be used if the weapons are AP1 or AP2 (plasma rifle), power weapons which do not allow armor saves to be taken AND weapons that cause instant death.

Personally I dont use many kroot at all, because they have no armor save(and i dont get many trees/jungles to hide them in for the cover saves). As for "bubble wrapping your tanks" I prefer to move them at cruising speed (fire 1 weapon, usually the railgun or SMS) away from those coming towards them and assaults require 6's to hit them. Why not move flat out across the battlefield to get away if you feel that they might assault and charge soon? 24" is quite far, allowing you to reposition yourself for turns to come, making them chase you once more. I rather sacrifice 1 turn not shooting for the rest of the turns having to be assaulted with power weapons. Plus, if your kroot are in assault with those Orks, it means that you cant shoot them either.

Warbuggies are not too much of a threat since they are open topped (+1 to damaged vehicle result) and they dont transport any assaulting units. So they are bikes that can't assault with twinlinked assault weapons or flamers.

I would take the broadsides instead of the 2nd hammerhead. 2 twin linked Railguns is going to get a lot of attention. He is going to concentrate everything he has onto those suits out of fear, and he has every right to be fearful. Just get them into cover and they will be fine. These are essentially the "Bait" for the Kauyon tactic. Just dont be surprised for infiltrating units being deployed to get them.

Apologies, did not know that bit about FNP, thanks

As to infiltrating I don't know if he has much in the way of infiltrators, no kommandos etc

Which is better the two suits with railguns or the Sky Ray???

Don't worry I'm not too fond of the Kroot and your definitely right about them so they're gone.
I'll put the plasma's back in thanks

As to the buggies, isn't tl assault weapons or flamers still somewhat worrying?
Anyways, I took the Railhead because I run Broadsides with lots of gadgets and about 200 somethig points but with the points from the kroot and railhead i should manage to fit them in

And if I wanted more S5 / AP5 weapons like the XV8 burst cannons can't I take Stealth suits because they don't need as many add-ons and they have the stealth field generator

Well well, looks like I need to catch up a bit

The advice you've gotten so far looks pretty good... well except the flamers, who would be crazy enough to field that against a CC army? >_<

Targetting arrays on each and every Crisis team leader... may just be a bit too much, but heh, no one ever listens to me about those anyway.

I wouldn't say Slick is definitely right about Kroot, however. I have used them many times to great effect, be it as a speedbump, bubble-wrapping or objective grabber they are certainly better than 12 man fire warrior teams. 12 man fire warrior teams are pretty much never worth taking just use 6 man teams to make your devilfish able to capture objectives and keep it at that. They just aren't good enough

Also, your inclusion of Krootox and the size of your Kroot squad would be what potentially lets it down. The purpose of a Kroot squad in most situations is to get butchered in 1 turn so you can then get another round of shots off at those who did it. What you seem to be trying to do is to make them a functional, winning unit

There's also no real need for a Shas'ui in the pathfinder team, I think... ditto the seekers on the piranha. A piranha is, imo, too easy to kill (especially when armed with a FB) for you to justify taking seeker missiles on it AND seekers aren't that great anyway. Points better spent elsewhere, certainly.

And Broadsides beat a Skyray in pretty much any contest you care to mention, I think... especially the role you seem to want it for

Most of your suits should have missile pods, bring them to bear against those AV10 buggies, and they should be quickly removed from play.

Stealth suits are nice but they take up your Elite spot. Where your Crisis suits are best taken for versatility of roles. But give them a try if you want to change out the BC Crisis suits, and i usually give them a marker drone as well(since it recieves steath field generator rules according to the codex on page 27). They also benefit from the infiltrate rule, meaning with an added FB they can go tank hunting.

If i had to choose between the skyray and the Broadsides, I'd take the broadsides. I give them ASS since twin-linking already gives them 75% or so accuracy (usually means you dont need targetting arrays unless you feel very unlucky with rolls). Moving and shooting with railguns is really useful esp for running to cover or getting a new LOS. And the SMS systems they have are for large groups getting close to them which require more shots to take down rather than the punching power of the railguns (in other words no need for multitrackers).

I usually bring:
Broadsides x2
Team Leader
Bonded
2 Shield Drones
ASS
Should be 200 exactly

Please PM me about your battle and how it goes when you do. Its great to learn from mistakes or triumphs as well as hearing that any tips I've shared that have helped practically rather than just theoretically.

from and ork/tau player heres what i think

crisis suits should just be TLMP& flamer
pathfinders and firewarriors are pointless in this case. take 6 fw and some kroot.
use piranhas multiple of them. give them dp and flechette. Orks rely mostly on CC against vehicles so fletchete rocks
Bassically use the piranhas to jamm up them boys. Either he attacks them and looses some boys or he has to run around them.

take 2 hammerheads and 2 broadsides Broadsides with target lock and ASS.

Now you should be able to get around
9 TL MP Flamer suits
2 Railheads with DP MT and BC
2 Broadsides
3-5 Piranhas
6 FW
and a bunch of kroot

Load up on one side and pumel any trucks with missile pods
NEVER USE SOLID SHOT ON A HEAD
use broadsides for Wagons and extra vehicles ect.
Shoot based on proximity, The furthest units are the least important. a truck thats 36" from the loaded table edge has about 40" to go in order to reach your firebase
If you can put flechete on railheads.

Been playing Tau for a few years, so I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

I like the railheads - With markerlight support they'll make short work of battlewagons and the submunition with 6 burst cannon shots following it is absolutely brutal against hordes.

The Firestorm suit loadout (burst cannon + missile pod) is great against orks as well. However I personally wouldn't go for the flamers - if you're that close to one of his units chances are there's another one right behind them that will follow up with a charge next turn. Better to dance around them and pour BC fire into them.

I know a lot of people aren't that into seekers, but personally I think they're great - you can get a really strong first turn barrage with them and leave his vehicle mounted units stranded.

I'd ditch the piranha. Anything it can do, your railguns can do better, plus its a point sink on a very fragile unit. You can just pop those seeker missiles onto your devilfish.

Good job adding rides for the firewarriors. They're VERY fragile. I'd consider shuffling points around (start by getting rid of the piranha) to upgrade some of your devilfish to the warfish loadout (smart missiles, multi-tracker and targetting array). This allows you 7 S5 BS4 shots, and allows you to still fire 4 of those shots while moving a full 12". Again, it's all about leading the orks on a merry chase while unloading tons of S5 into them

Good luck!

his approach works well aswell
i prefer head on he prefers roundabout either is good.
I contend seekers are nice however i have problems justifying giving things markerlights just to use them.

In contention of flamers: they are not an offensive tool. Flamers a 4 pt o gak button for when the horde inevitably boxes in your suits. I dont like BC's because 9/10 you are still in range for shootas. using TLMP flamer you can sit back at the proper range and avoid all those saves.

to me the big thing is suits are your go to anti vehicle combined with your broadsides youll get 4(5) anti vehicle units. your 3 piranhas and 2 railheads are 5 anti infantry units. Rig your comander with an AFP target lock ect and stick him with a unit of kroot on an objective. you have firewarriors and kroot left to kill the gaps.

Hes got a tough climb rokkits have a 1.3% chance of seriously hurting a head so its gonna take all his anti mech to kill em both. meanwhile your turbo boosted piranhas are close enough for power claws but hard to hit. Flechetes will trap and slaughter him. not to mention he is not locked in said combat so you can still shoot him. And if he runs trucks he then has to waste 2 turns in oder to attack them meanwhile you can block the gak out of those trucks.

I've tried to encorporate as many of your suggestions as possible, but...

The Fire warrior squads are still 12 guys but that's because if anything gets close they'll jump in their Devilfish the orks will get Flechette if they try and assault, the fish will zip across the table and the warriors will tumble out and keep shooting more S5 / AP5 while the gun drones on the devilfish might be able to force the orks to go to round, keeping them further away from my fragile fire warriors

I'm trying to make all my units count so the Kroot will be attempting to make what they can of themselves even without jungle / woods

I took out the Piranha but I'm not sure if I want the Seeker Missiles on a Devilfish because it doesn't have the maneuverability of the piranha to get behind other vehicles...
Leaving me with 105 points to use and a distinct lack of anti-tank weaponry other than the railguns (of which there are only 3), unless my Missile Pods are supposed to be used as light vehicle smashing duties, then use the railgun's promarily for Bwagons and Deff Dread?

erm, not sure about the reliability of the speed of my Broadsides if I equip them with ASS

So without anymore stuff, here's the new list;

HQ
XV8 Crisis Shas'O - Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, MP, Shield Generator, HWMT, HWDC, 2 shield drones = 162
XV8 Crisis Shas'El - Burst Cannon, MP, TA, HWMT = 85

Elites
XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - Plasma Rifles, MP, MT, Team Leader, Bonding Knife = 134
XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - BC, MP, MT, Team Leader, Bonding Knife = 120
XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - Flamers, MP, MT, Team Leader, Bonding Knife = 102

Troops
Fire Warrior Team (12 men) - Pulse Rifles, Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pods, Flechette Dischargers = 230
Fire Warrior Team (12 men) - Pulse Rifles, Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pods, Flechette Dischargers = 230
Fire Warrior Team (12 men) - Pulse Rifles, Team Leader, Bonding Knife = 135
Kroot Kindred - 15 Kroot Carnivores, 2 Krootox Riders = 175

Fast Attack
Pathfinder Team (6 men) - Pulse Carbines, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pod, Flechette Dischargers = 167

Heavy Support
Hammerhead Gunship - Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, Targeting Array, Disruption Pods, Flechette Dischargers = 165
XV88 Broadside Team (2 members) - Twin-Linked Railguns, SMS, Targeting Array, HWDC, 2 Sheild Drones = 190

Total = 1895

I know that it's a mistake to have so many fragile units but I would like to try it out first. As most of you know, it probably will fail so I'm looking at suggestions still on how to make it a better list against orks once my fire warrior teams number a minimum of 6 with the same devilfish: altogether costing 155.
Meaning that a total of 400 points will be loose and needing to be used, what can I do with it all?

Also, What should I do with the 105 points walking spare????

Any ideas???

P.s. - My friend won't be bringing a huge horde of ork boyz (most likely) since he uses loads of trukks and stuff and I've looked at the math and it looks to me like to beat my Kroot gunline he would need a mob of 30 with all the trimmings

If its a mech army he will be using then put your Firewarriors in 6 man groups and shove them in the devilfish. This means they are a Scoring Unit and meet the requirements for 2 troop choices.
With some extra points increase your suits to 3man unit for the PR/MP team. Oh yes one thing, you dont need bonding knives for 2 man suit teams since they are never below 50% strength, unless they have drones with them. Remember your PR/MP team is shooting at BS3, this means around 50% accuracy for each weapon. I usually take my Shas'El(with the twin linked plasma rifle instead of targetting array) with 2 bodyguards with Targetting Arrays with the Fireknife configuration. This means that i'm sure to hit things and would them with BS4. This unit is the hard hitting unit dishing out those important wounds and taking down those FNP targets or special characters. For me, I like to make sure what I hit dies so the plasma rifles are my choice with this particular unit, the missile pods are just added bonus shots within that 24" range. Bring some shield drones too if you have the points.

Broadsides need the bonding knife if you have drones as they will take morale tests for each drone killed. I usually rely on the markerlight for the +1BS for the whole Broadside unit rather than the targetting array. Remember the ASS allows them to walk slowly and shoot, meaning they are able to roll 2D6, picking the highest number and move that amount in inches. The purpose is not for escaping combat, but rather redeploying for TLOS. If you dont want to move them at all, then take the target lock which means that you are less likely to overkill your targets and be able to shoot more vehicles/armored targets before they get to you.

I'd probably give the pathfinders 2 more guys, averaging 4 markerlights on the target per turn. I find giving the devilfish to them is unnessesary as embarking/disembarking counts are moving which means that they wont be able to use the markerlights as their intended purpose. Pathfinders will be ignored, or will die, thats what I've come to face. But they help to boost those initial few turns to help you ensure those targets go down, like bikes(reducing their cover saves), allowing the Hammerhead to take out transports or tanks. The broadsides usually do well without markerlight support because of the twin-linked railguns and these are usually tasked with taking out the walkers/buggies and transports too.

I was also reading up on buggies a while ago, and to correct myself, they are dangerous because they can twin-link rocket launchers which will wreck hell on your side armor. I would take these out with the broadsides first to ensure the survival of the tanks.

I would also trade the multitracker on the Flamer/MP unit because usually you are not in range of the flamer to use it. The 2 extra shots on the template is still good but unnessesary. Using this unit at BS4 will allow you to use those missile pods more effectively without need for markerlight support and take down armored targets until those flamers are needed. Or even better... twin-link the flamers to ensure more wounds when you have to use them, if not the missile pods. The general rule for accuray is 50% without upgrades, 66% with a TA, 75% twin-linked and 88% with TA and twin-linked.

If you have the points to spare, some piranhas might help. They really are used for harassing behind enemy lines.

I'd use this


Tau Army List
ARMY NAME:
Total points: 1999

created by: Eal'ta
author: Joe(yeti)

++++ [HQ] ++++

Points: 228
% of Army: 11.40

Unit cost: 228
XV8 Shas'el
--- [Missile pod, Burst cannon, Targeting array, Bonding knife, HW Multi-tracker]
XV8 Shas'vre BG
--- [AFP, TL Burst cannon, HW Multi-tracker]
XV8 Shas'vre BG
--- [Burst cannon, TL Missile pod, HW Multi-tracker]

++++ [Elites] ++++

Points: 423
% of Army: 21.16

Unit cost: 141
3x XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Missile pod, Flamer]

Unit cost: 141
3x XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Missile pod, Flamer]

Unit cost: 141
3x XV8 Shas'ui
--- [TL Missile pod, Flamer]

++++ [Troops] ++++

Points: 543
% of Army: 27.16

Unit cost: 60
6x Fire Warrior 'la
--- [Pulse rifle]

Unit cost: 91
13x Kroot
--- [Kroot rifle]

Unit cost: 98
14x Kroot
--- [Kroot rifle]

Unit cost: 98
14x Kroot
--- [Kroot rifle]

Unit cost: 98
14x Kroot
--- [Kroot rifle]

Unit cost: 98
14x Kroot
--- [Kroot rifle]

++++ [Fast Attack] ++++

Points: 240
% of Army: 12.00

Unit cost: 80
Piranha
--- [Burst cannon, 2x Gun Drone, Disruption pod, Flechette disch., Decoy launchers]

Unit cost: 80
Piranha
--- [Burst cannon, 2x Gun Drone, Decoy launchers, Flechette disch., Disruption pod]

Unit cost: 80
Piranha
--- [Burst cannon, 2x Gun Drone, Disruption pod, Decoy launchers, Flechette disch.]

++++ [Heavy Support] ++++

Points: 565
% of Army: 28.26

Unit cost: 180
Hammerhead
--- [Railgun, 2x Burst cannon, Decoy launchers, Disruption pod, Multi-tracker, Flechette disch.]

Unit cost: 205
XV88 'ui TL
--- [TL Railgun, SMS, A.S.S., HW Target lock, Bonding knife, Shield Drone, Shield Drone]
XV88 'ui
--- [TL Railgun, SMS, A.S.S.]

Unit cost: 180
Hammerhead
--- [Railgun, 2x Burst cannon, Disruption pod, Decoy launchers, Multi-tracker, Flechette disch.]
-----------------------
Total model count: 94
-----------------------

You need lots of guns to kill dem orks.
9 Dedicated JSJ TL MP's for trukks dreadds kans ect.
2 independantly shooting Railguns for wagons
2 Submunition heads for killen sloggin boys
Flechette on all mechs to Help when he CC's
DP's cause your tau
Decoy launchers because S8 is tough to not glance with
39 S5 ap5 Shots
3 piranhas for pissing him off
And a gak ton of kroot that are meant to lay the rapid fire hurt on boys.


Allot of people prefer a mech tau and consider a scorefish to be a necesarry writeoff. Meanwhile they treat kroot as bubblewrap for other units. I personally like kroot. They die so protect them but damn can they shoot.
Piranhas are a touchy one. Again mostly used for ramm and jam but i expect more out of them. I use piranhas as a challenge. Use them to force your opponents hand. Even if he only commits 1 unit per pirahna. Thats 3 units that have been slower by at least a turn. Orks live off of getting to the chase not dicking aorund and all arriving at the same time. Even if its 3 units, You can really mess up an ork battle plan by just posing piranhas in such a war that they need to be dealt with. Jamm, Ramm, Shoot, Shock Whatever. USE THE PIRANHA IN A WAY THAT HE CANT IGNORE IT.

docbrown's list seems fine. It concentrates on amount of shots to get the job done. Personally I dont use kroot because they die easily unless they are in jungle/wooded cover, you mentioned protecting them... which is going to be hard since they do not have transports and have no armor saves. You could infiltrate them all behind enemy lines I guess. The reason I dont favour kroot is because any unit assaulting them or being assaulted by them is not able to be shot at by anything else. And we all know that usually assaults involving kroot resolve badly(due to their leadership even if they win).

This was my usual strategy during 4th edition where it was "kill everything before it gets near to me" but since cover saves have become bountiful the tau are becoming less effective in this strategy. This is why I have markerlights, you do not get cover saves from markerlight hit and they reduce the enemies cover which is invaluable. They also help to ensure that BS5 on the hammerheads because missing with them is just agony, and as a bonus using the submunition round the BS helps to reduce the scatter dice result.

Its a good way to play piranhas tho and thats what I believe they are best at. I usually disembark the drones next to the hammerhead or broadsides. Funny enough since they are a unit by themselves and have the jump pack rules, I use them to move in front of the broadsides to provide the 4+ cover save(intervening models) then move to the side in the movement phase, let the broadsides fire, then move back in front of them during the assault phase. Who wants to waste high powered shots on drones eh?

I have mixed views on the hammerheads with decoy launchers. For me immobalised is not as bad as weapon destroyed, crew shaken/stunned and the other 2 results are just not an potion i'd like. You can still fire the railgun and burst cannons even if immobalised. And since assaulting vehicles does not keep you locked in combat, all your army around it can attack the assaulters on the tank in the next turn, or your tank can get some revenge with that railgun if it was hit by a shooting target.

Sorry Doc, Kroot are alright but they're just not so great at what they are desinged to do and that is to be the tau version of assault troops, I'm wrecking they're infiltrate potential to treat them as a gunline troop to crush stuff that gets into assault.
Yeah, I know. The decoys are too specific in the situations in which they're used only on a glance and only on an immobilised result

I like my fragile fire warriors,

The first list is to lose against him but will let me find out what his list is like, the second is using most of you're suggestions so that I can crush him in the rematch

List Number One: Typon's Storm Cadre (Large Fire warrior squads [will lose])

HQ
XV8 Crisis Shas'O - Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, MP, Shield Generator, HWMT, MWDC, 2 shield drones = 162
XV8 Crisis Shas'El - Burst Cannon, MP, TA, HWMT = 85

Elites
XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - PR, MP, MT = 124
XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - BC, MP, MT = 110
XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - Flamer, MP, MT = 92

Troops
FW (12 members) - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Pulse Rifles, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger = 230
FW (12 members) - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Pulse Rifles, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger = 230
FW (12 members) - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Pulse Rifles = 135
Kroot Kindred - 14 Carnivores, 3 Krootox Riders = 203

Fast Attack
Piranha - Burst Cannon, 2 Gun Drones, Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger = 75
Pathfinder Team (6 members) - Pulse carbines, Markerlights, Devilfish w/ 2 Seekers, Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger = 187

Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside Team (2 members) - TL-Railgun, Smart Missilse System, ASS, Team Leader, Bonding Knife, HWDC, 2 Shield drones = 200
Hammerhead Gunship - Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, TA, Disruption Pods, Flechette Discharger = 165

Total = 1998

Ok that's the first list for the first gam that won't be cchanging radically. I know it will lose but it'll let me see his type of list and his style.
The second list has incorporated some of your suggestions and I would like it to have a good chance of winning against serious mech-orks

List number 2 : Typhon's Tempest cadre

HQ
XV8 Crisis Shas'O - Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, MP, Shield Generator, HWMT, MWDC, 2 shield drones = 162
XV8 Crisis Shas'El - TL - Plasma Rifles, MP, HWMT = 97
XV8 Crisis Bodyguard (2 members - for Shas'El) - Plasma Rifles, MP, TA, HWMT = 164

Elites
XV8 Crisis Team (3 members) - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Plasma Rifles, MP, MT = 196
XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - Burst Cannons, MP, MT = 100
XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - Flamers, MP, MT = 102

Troops
FW Team (6 members) - Pulse Rifles, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger = 155
FW Team (6 members) - Pulse Rifles, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger = 155

Fast Attack
Pathfinder Team (6 members) - Pulse Carbines, Devilfish w/ Disruption Pods, Flechette Discharger = 167
Piranha - Burst Cannon, 2 Gun Drones, Disruption Pods, Flechette Discharger = 75
Piranha - Burst Cannon, 2 Gun Drones, Disruption Pods, Flechette Discharger = 75

Heavy Support
Hammerhead Gunship - Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods, Flechette Discharger, Multi-tracker = 175
Hammerhead Gunship - Railgun, 2 Burst Cannons, Disruption Pods, Flechette Discharger, Multi-tracker = 175
XV88 Broadside Team (2 members) - TL - Railgun, Smart Missile System, ASS, Team Leader, Bonding Knife, HWDC, 2 Shield Drones = 200

Total = 1998

So anything else that can be done to make the second list better
SlickVictory, I have sorta played a couple of 500 point games where I've used Gun Drones like that and it is really effective because the opponent either fires at the drones to get rid of the cover save as quick as possible or fire at the thing cowering behind them and let it have the 4+ cover save, it's awesome. I'd love to keep a drone squadron but I can't find the points

And I know that the stuff needed is totally different but just how different would this list have to be to go up against SM??

Cheers for all the advice Dakka

sick i hate pathfinders
they are an expensive laser sight that offers very specific gains with very specific needs. they cost allot and force me to move units in a way that they are both in LOS and in range. They are a liability and using them makes my army dependent upoon them. they become a singular linch pin that can be used to derail an army. I dont like running lists that have 1 thing you must kill. btw pathfinders on a hammerhead are pointless in my opinion. solid shot is not really needed and though helpful its allot of points to comit even 4 pathfinders to reduce your scatter

I like FW's to
HOwever
Kroot haave ap6 which is all you need against orks
FW accel at killing Geq, Guard, eldar, nids ect. Your paying 10 pt for ap5 when you need ap6 which comes at 7 points

MATHHAMMER
k the difference between kroot and fw is 1 S and 1 AP
difference in points is 30%
Against orks you have a 16% better chance with FW
aka double the price half the outpput.
Good cover and infiltrate means you can set up nice gunline kroot traps that are much more effectve point for point

now the list
Drop the pathfinders and bring 1 more FW squad.
XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - Burst Cannons, MP, MT = 100
not a bad idea for orks. Always look to use the MP first

XV8 Crisis Team (2 members) - Flamers, MP, MT = 102
bad boy drop the MT and make the MP TL.
you get a 50% boost to your most valuble weaopn vs 1.5 extra kills in a game.
input vs ooutput man

XV8 Crisis Shas'O - Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, MP, Shield Generator, HWMT, MWDC, 2 shield drones = 162
i fire enough rokkits to hit 4 times you loosee 2 drones.
you fail ld chek
this unit is now gone. Get a bonding knife

XV8 Crisis Shas'El - TL - Plasma Rifles, MP, HWMT = 97
XV8 Crisis Bodyguard (2 members - for Shas'El) - Plasma Rifles, MP, TA, HWMT = 164
XV8 Crisis Team (3 members) - Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Plasma Rifles, MP, MT = 196
Normally im more forgiving when people want to bring 6 plasma rifles into a game but your playing orks
does he run FNP Meganobs or something?

K he is not mobile but you are. if we can destroy al his transports he has to slog you win by shear mobility.
we want as much anti trukk as possible aka TL MP
the PR units are your big problem. thats oveer 140 pts just in rifles

note: GD SQADS ARE A JOKE. in tiny games they are nice but in a full sized game they cost way to much and do way to little

against SM maybe take the econd list in its entirety minus the pathfinders.

ok cheers

TBH, if i take kroot then I need a minimum of 16 kroot carnivores (to perform better than fire warriors)= 112
compared to a FW team of 12 = 120

There is only eight points difference in points for them to be comparable in effeciency in killing orks (I've done the math)

Kroot carnivores firing at rapid fire = 32 shots = 16 hits = 8 wounds (no save)
FW team firing at rapid fire range = 24 shots = 12 hits = 8 wounds (no save)

So, also the kroot aren't supposed to have a big enough squad to actully contend with the orks in close combat in case it lasts longer than a turn, then the Kroot are less mobile than FW teams which you said was one of the tau's advantages over orks. Also, I pay eight points less for a similar efficiency at shooting for the kroot who don't have an armour save and so cannot survive return fire - admittadely there wont be much from the average ork but it will reduce the efficiency of the kroot damned quickly.

That is why I'm taking FW teams atm over Kroot squads (and personal taste)

Pathfinders will be used to get rid of the 4+ cover save given to the mech-orks by the warbikes and boost my BS making more shots hit

My army is not dependant on Pathfinders, I'm taking them as a neat bonus that will give my mobile force more advantages

I do agree about the missile pods on the most part though thanks
Thanks i must have forgot about the Bonding Knife on my Shas'O

The kroot won't get a cover save from woods / jungle as neither me nor my opponent has any wooded terrain peices, only buildings and ruins

Thanks dakka

Lesson 1 standard dice roll 1s 29%of the time. The Path with more dice is the safest.
2 that convieniance costs as much as a troop choice. Is situational and can't double the overall effectiveness of the other choices. This points are better spent on another score fish. Double the pOints and half the buff isn't worth it.
3 kroot are worth it

Doc, I'm not disputing the fact that Kroot are awesome but for efficiency in firing, they just don't compare

I'll think about the shifting the pathfinders, alright (I understand where you're coming from, I haven't used them yet though and some people seem to think they're worth it [insert shrug] )

standard dice should have a 16.66... % chance of rolling a 1 (unless its weighted ???)

I like my Kroot but as I have said the shooting isn't up to scratch, I don't play with luck I use maths and probability (though i do realise that the dice don't always do what probabilities say they should) when planning my games, and against orks they need a big squad of 20 + extras to contend for CC, not the 13/14, you were suggesting and even then if the Kroot get shot a little first they will get mashed up for no reason.

I agree more dice is better but more dice that are effective is better than more dice that aren't very effective, sorry doc

1 round corners and indents lead to dice rolling 1s more often.
2 kroot that get mashed up in cc is good. You don't want your kroot to hold out you want them to fail at cc while wounding a little. That way you may shoot at him during your turn.
3 pathfinders divide tau players. At low points I love them but at 2k they can't come between you and scoring.
4 a fw is ten pints because of. Ap and armor.something ork players don't care about. Kroot pay for infiltrate and numbers. Something that can mess with ork players.

Sorry mate, all the corners are round and the indents are carfully balanced, so if you're dice roll 1's 29% of the time - they've been tampered with

By taking a soft troop scoring unit, it will be eliminated and so cancel out any chance of getting an objective. Survivability is key.
Bringing Kroot to serve up on a platter is pointless and with a majority of Kroot you lose the key shooting capability of the tau.

orks are T4 meaning that kroot weapons wound them on 4+, whereas pulse weapons wound on a 3+ (more wounds for less dice)
FW and kroot have the same BS (more's the shame) but the better weapons means, and I have said this before, that to compare a kroot squad with a FW team of 12. Let's compare actually;

Let's assume they're in a suicidal range of 12 inches [FW team of 12 (costing 120) and Kroot team of 16 (costing 112) only saving 8 points]
They hit on a 4+, Kroot wound on 4+, FW's wound on 3+

FW team fires at ork boyz = 24 shots = 12 hits = 8 no-save wounds
Kroot squad fire at boyz = 32 shots = 16 hits = 8 no-save wounds

So, for comparable efficiency in the shooting phase - worse positioning and less manueverability - you get a Kroot squad of 16. You can make the squad bigger and so inflict more wounds [which is very good]. However, this would then get an avalanche of ork boyz smashing into them next turn.

Let's assume that the ork boyz managed to not take any damage before that point and is a basic 30 boyz mob with slugga and choppa
[no nobz etc].
Meaning that your 16 man kroot squad gets badly assaulted.

Orks charge in = [4 attacks per boy] 88 attacks = 44 hits = 22 wounds killing off your kroot

So in such a scenario you're right the Kroot die and have inflicted only 8 wounds, by making the kroot squad bigger there's a greater chance of inflicting more wounds but a smaller chance of them being wiped out in one turn and the cost goes up.
This scenario is unlikely however as my opponent won't be fielding such big boyz mobs because he plays speed freaks and puts them all in transports.

This means that my kroot would instead act as a meat shield for his boyz to hide behind [ in assault I can't shoot them]

Or I could do that same style but park a devilfish or some-such thing in front of my FW team and let the orks run around or assault and so preserve my prefered unit

Anyways, if you want to play with sacrificial units why don't you try a more numerous army like IG, Orks or Tyranids? [that plays that way]
The Tau believe that all lives are important I am determined to play as Games Workshop designed them to be played.

Yes, Fire warriors cost more than Kroot but come on, if I take kroot then I'm losing the manueverability provided by my Devilfish. If they infiltrate then the orks just move in a different direction. Also, infiltrating into woods/ jungle is the only way to make kroot effective meaning that they would have to stay relatively stationary and so die even sooner.

I'm sticking with majority Fire warriors thanks, that my opinion and I am entitled to it. Don't keep arguing as the only possible aim would be to change my mind something nobody is capable of.

Thank you for your opinions but I've made my preferences obvious,
Thanks for all the help and advice dakka

ok
1 never compare 112 pts to 120 pts thats just dumb.
Do the percentages per point or per model per point
2 your forgeting kroot inflicts cc damage to
3 HOW ARE KROOT GIVEN LESS POSITIONING, THEY HAVE INFLITRATE
4 your devilfish is an 80 pt boat for gunline troops that are best served by sitting back. As an ork player i want you to move seing as i can likely reach you easily in turn 2. To best use mobile tau you need carbines at 18" range and assault. Orks range at 18-24". Otherwise your always 1 turn delayed with 12" rapid fire. Thanks to trukks, red paint, waaagh, ect. I am not afraid of anything that is 12" range.
5 There are no fire points in a D-fish so to shoot you need to get out. FW squads are not the head into combat type of troops.
6 whats wrong with forcing orks to move differently. How hard is it to infiltrate into cover in different spots.

Kroot are not a bad troop. I like FW's to but they are more effective fighting against nids guard eldar ect. with orks 6+ you don't need a pulse weapon. If so why take something that is worse in CC, more expensive, cant infiltrate/outflank ect. Kroot are not to be disregarded.

I see taus main weakness to be low VOF so i tend to run cheap units to get more shots out. FW just arent cheap to run with a D-fish. This is why i hate pathfinders 24pts = 16% better shooting. Meanwhile twin linking a weapon for half of its points cost = 25% increase.

Please read carefully

The comparison between 112 and 120 is to show that for the same volume of casualties inflicted there is only a saving of 8 points.

I conceded to your point as to the expense of pathfinders

The Kroot cannot reposition in the middle of the game, and their cc potential is sorely lacking. FW in Devil can reposition.

Why use Pulse carbines? The Kroot are also using rapid fire. I will be out of reach in a devilfish and still able to nibble away at your mobs with my Devilfish and other mobile units whereas if I take out your big guns first then your orks can do almost nothing to my armoured mobile units as they keep out of assault range.

I don't want to assault with my FW so why take an assault weapon?

It only takes one small mob of choppa/ slugga wielding ork boyz to rip apart a relatively big kroot squad and for the cost many more ork boyz can be taken than kroot meaning that even in cover on a one to one [squad] the kroot will get torn apart and perform a very pointless action.

Devilfish has no fire points but has a burst cannon and 2 gun drones and flechette dischargers as a backup.
Meaning that the devil can fire its burst cannon and then get a minimum of one pinning wound from the carbines on one mob and if another sneaks up on me i still get my flechettes. if by some chance my devil is opened like-a-proverbial-can then I have a FW squad sitting like a duck in between two boyz mobs, one of which is wounded and pinned and so, although the FW squad is dead they will inflict damage on one of the mobz and the other can't move next turn. Leaving both as reduced threats and more vulnerable than before.

It doesn't take a genius [Or does it?] to realise what is more worthwhile if you have 120 points of lightly armoured heavily armed troops vs. 112 points of un-armoured, armed troops.

You would be lucky if many trucks survived the opening turns, leaving your poor unlucky boys walking towards a tau army [not where i'd like to be]. Thus meaning they'd have a range closer to 12"-18" without shooting. The 18" would only be a one off because it is the waagh special rule, meaning every other time i'm worrying about lightly armoured non-shooting greenskins moving 12" per turn. Ooo, so scary!

Inflitrating means kroot can position hopefully in cover, out of LOS outside of 12" range of the enemy, or in LOS out of 18" of range. the FW don't have infiltrate but they have devilfish and so can move when they like, where they like. I feel that this makes them more maneuverable.

Clarify : Why mention twin-linked at the end of your post?

Twin linking is. Cheaper and mores effective against Pathfinders.

Ok now be fare 120pts of fw + the cost of a fish.

2 drones usually never get a kill and even so orks will nOt get pinned.

You use carbines in a fish because rifles have 12" range when you get out while they have 18"

Assault weapons are not just for assault. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard

Sorry I havent been around for a while, was gaming most nights.

Docbrown makes some valid points, and so do you Typhon. I think we all know that docbrown doesnt like using Pathfinders, and both arguments about the FW are situational.

Personally I dont disembark my FW from the Warfish(Devilfish will all the upgrades inc SMS) simply because I use the Warfish to hide behind cover to break LOS and shoot the SMS until the way is clear for objective taking. It also makes a nice target for certain units that you want to lure away from your main force.

I'd say play what you think is best, learn from your victory and mistakes. Then change the strategy according to your advantages and weaknesses, and share what you've learnt with us here.

Back to Typhon's 2nd List:

XV8 Crisis Shas'El - TL - Plasma Rifles, MP, HWMT = 97
XV8 Crisis Bodyguard (2 members - for Shas'El) - Plasma Rifles, MP, TA, HWMT = 164

Yes these are the hard hitters, I usually bring this sort of unit. Nobs, Warbosses, Bikers, Kopters and as a bonus with the MP; Transports,Warbuggies. Yes the AP2 wont be needed for most targets without FNP but with the high BS of this group, I prefer 3 Shots at 24" rather than more at 18" or less with TL MPs(2).

Partly my fault for the 3 Membered team of PR MP Crisis suits, I forgot to tell Typhon that you dont need more PR after your Shas'El & Bodyguard team unless you are fighting many TEQ. That should allow you to bring a team of TL MP and TA Crisis for vehicle hunting and anything else(Team Leader,BK, as per usual). If its a mainly Mech army you are facing, perhaps change the 3rd Crisis team to FB/MP MT as a defence for your Hammerheads or Broadsides. If not, more MPs.

I would have 1 Devilfish less for your 2nd FW team, and use the Pathfinders devilfish for them. Embarking/Disembarking Pathfinders means you cant use markerlights on them, wasting their intended use. I just put them close to the broadsides, preferably in cover of some sort. Dont worry if they die, either that or they'll be completely ignored. (Remember their main use is to reduce cover saves including ones for intervening models, which means you can fire much better at Units behind other units usually the ones that are important).

Piranhas with the FB upgrade is far more of a menace I found instead of the BC. But if you want more STR5 shots, go ahead.

Good Luck fighting them Orks!

Thanks SlickVictory, I will.

I'll shift the pathfinders and devils and change out the piranha's BC, heck i might even find the points to include that great tactic using the gun drones

Thanks to everyone on dakka for the advice

awaiting the ...

VICTORY FOR THE GREATER GOOD!!!