Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HQ
x2 waboss w/ PK 'eavy armour cybork 100

Troops
2x 10 nobs w/ painboy 'eavy armour 4 pk 4 BC 465
-Battlewagon Deff Rolla red paint 4x rokkits 155
Elites
15 burnas
-Battlewagon Deff Rolla red paint 4x rokkits 155
Heavy
3 kannons 60
2 kannons 40

"eavy armur combats storm bolters and forces a 3/4/4/4 roll
Waaagh banners negate nemisis force swords
cybork on everything combats anything that ignores armour
12 rokkits and 5 kannons are reliable anti tank and helpfull anti termy
Burnas are their for some nice strike squad anihilation
What ya think

My oppoenent is GK

Current rendition
HQ
x2 warboss w/ PK 'eavy armour cybork 200
Troops
x2 6 Nobz & Painboy w/ 3 PK, 3 BC, Cyborks, banner, bosspole 640
Elites
x2 Burna's 450
Fast Attack
x2 3 Warbikers & Nob w/ Bosspole 320
Heavy
x4 BattleWagons w/ deffrolla, big shoota, Red Paint 480

The Cybork Burnas made no sense considering I hope they stay in their wagon. The Bikers will add nicely to the dual front as first contact harassers and their save will either eat up shots or deter them. I think i'l run this list for days to come

I would go for one less warboss and then go for some boyz in a battlewagon instead.
Having only 3 battlewagons is still risky.

Also you'll want ammo runts.

1 boss = 1 nobz for troops
need 2 boss to be legal
wont want runts cause wont be shooting



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont want boys for troops in this list

Honestly, it'd be a fun elite type list, but not enough models. Only two troop units at 2k is extremely low, unless you know that you'll be playing annihilation(not uncommon for friendly games).

You only have 3 units total, excluding your support. The kannons are a good source of cheap anti-armor, but only glance AV14(of course that's where the rollas and bosses come in).

I think MFletch meant runts for the Big Gunz.

Your battlewagons don't need 4 rokkits. That's 30 points per wagon that could be used elsewhere.....so 90 points that won't be seeing much use, because you won't be firing the 1st round or two(get the nobz stuck in), and after that you'll be deffrolling, and won't always be shooting. I'll take 1d6 automatic S10 hits over a BS S8 any day. You don't want to sit still to fire all the guns after you've delivered troops. Automatic CC hits from anything with some power(Power fists, Daemon Hammers, meltabombs, Relic Blades) will be devastating to your expensive battlewagons. Oh, if you're going to take more than one rokkit launcha, the first one should always be a Kannon instead. Same point cost, 36" range, and can be fired with frag shells instead and also is a defensive weapon when firing frag shells(S4).

Just for the mathhammer, 10 stormbolters will average 1.67 wounds after to-hit, wound, 'eavy armor, and FNP. God forbid purifiers(which he'll probably have especially knowing that he faces orks), who will cause 2.5 wounds to your nob quad as well, before blows are struck. Don't get me wrong, they're probably our strongest unit against Purifiers, but against GK, I prefer more dakka.

Still, it'll be fun, and I look forward to hear about you toasting some GK with the burna boyz. If you can wipe a purifier unit, that'd be great.....poetic justice!

Good luck!



Fun list, very killy, but can't kill enough at the same time.

Not wanting boys for troops is silly to be honest. As it stands now it seems you are trying to fight a grey knight deathstar with an ork one and that wont work, they will win hands down.

1) you cant fire that many rokkits a turn, I would go instead with either 2 big shootas if you want a shooting platform or just the one for weapon destroyed protection. As it stands now I see the rokkits and Read paint job to be wasted points, an extra three inches in a game isn't worth your 5 points.

2) You need to diversify those nobs, as it stands your wound shinanigans arent very strong, I would suggest this outfit: 3 nobs with PK 1 with Combi-Rokkit and 1 with Combi-burna, 3 with BC 1 with Combi-Rokkit and 1 with Combi-burna, 2 normal, 1 with Combi-Rokkit 1 with Waaaagh Banner, 1 Painboy. Lots of wound shinanigans and lots of Combi weapons to deal with different threats. Ammo runts might work well too on those combi-rokkits.

3) I would suggest removing a Wb and replace him with a Big Mek with PK and CFF, you don't want your Wagons being gunned down before you even get to the front lines (this isn't for GK mind you since the biggest gun they generally bring is the Psycannon or Psyfleman Dread, Psycannons still have a chance to bust your wagons though)

4) How does the WAAAGH banner negate nemesis force swords? Last I read it only increases the squad's WS by 1 unless I missed an FAQ or something. I agree that Nobs need it but I don't think it negates anything.


I think you could save some points with your armor and to lower the amount of Nobs in your squads, 7 works well for me. Then you can add in some boys in trukks to help swamp the GK or any other Marine player for that matter. You may also want to check out Tankbustas. If you are looking specifically to bust down GK then they may be your golden ticket so to speak, even with only 15 shots, 5 of which will hit your will normally be forcing 4-5 saves a shooting turn which will result in 1-2 dead pallies., since generally a Draigowing list will be vehicle light you will then be able to focus your fire on those Paladins, put them in a Battlewagon and now you can drive them around and give them some extra cover.

How does a Waaagh! Banner negate a Nemesis Force Sword? Or any Force Weapons? The bearer of the Sword gets +1 to their invul save, whereas a Banner adds +1 to your WS. And any force weapon can instant kill your 2 wound Nobz.

90% chance hes doesnt take purifiers.
What can i spend 90 points on though.
As for low troops, I plan on not letting anything of his score period. With what im running I should be able to control the board easily. I would prefer to have
2 nob wagons and 2 burna wagons and pinch him in but i cant find those points without sacrificing something which is really hard
even if i drop kannons and some nobz its still tought to get in another burnawagon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh he told me force swords give +1 WS ergo waagh banner negates that
Again KFF requires a mek which requires a squad of boys rather then nobz
hmm. 3" isnt worth 5 pts but wound shenanigans are worth 15-20?
is 4 pts worth 200% increase in survivability vs the enemies mainstay weapon?
Tankbustas may be an option
i will try them in further lists depending on how vehicle freindly he is


Automatically Appended Next Post:
try this

HQ
x2 warboss w/ PK 'eavy armour cybork 200
Troops
x2 6 nobz w/ painboy, 3 PK, 3 BC, Cyborks, banner, bosspole 640
Elites
x2 Burna's w/ cybork 600
Heavy
x4 BattleWagons w/ deffrolla, big shoota, Red Paint 480

1920
What should i do with 80 pts

Second list may be better for you, as long as the burna wagons don't get popped. You've got a lot more points than you think....150 more, because your burnas cannot take cybork unless you field Mad Dok Grotsnik.

Yes, the wound shenanigans are important enough to make your squads cost 20 points more if you are ever planning to run this against anything else, storm bolter rounds that punch through your nobs in mass numbers may kill a nob instead of just wound two. (notice though with those original squads that no actual point deviance was put in since I removed a Big Choppa and a Power Klaw and instead put in 5 combi-weapons, you actually gained 5 points) the 15 points you are wasting on Red Paint Job are meant for armies that sit as far back as possible, not an army that is charging right at you. He wants to get into CC, you do too, you will get there quick enough not to warrant 15 points.

I am still gonna tell you that you need to run the boys over Nobs. Nobs are good don't get me wrong, but if your opponent is almost guaranteed to go first (there will be that lone hammer I know) then you are going to be looking down the barrel of 2-4 force weapon attacks a turn (2 base, 3 if they charge or have a banner, 4 if they charge and have a banner) at weapon skill 5 he will be hitting on 4s, depending on group comp he may be str 5-6 and your guys may only be toughness 3. He will wound you around 4 or 5 times more than likely and auto wipe them if he has the banner due to activated force weapons. You lose about 1/3rd to half your nob squad in one go and if he is smart he will run the swords instead of the halberds for a 4+ invuln.

If you truly want to go smashy in melee then run Dreads and laugh as your dreads kill 2-3 pallies a turn and only one of his guys has an option of fighting back. Running 2 KFF mechs insures they get to the front line and then having 5 of them run through his knights will more than likely be to much for him to handle. Or go mass boy spam and pick off a few pallies at a time with your one PK nob in the squads. I am assuming though that you only have the nobs for this little excursion though since you are so adamant about no boys and only nobs.

oh
was using an ork excell template god to know
hmmwhats a good use of 230 pts

Burna wagons will be semi protected by Nobwagons

So with 230 points......I'd be tempted for warbikes, or perhaps lootas. Lootas do best against light armor vehicles, and so-so against infantry. Warbikes are better anti-infantry and have a huge mobility bonus. Keep them out of assault range, only place a PK on the nob if you want to assault vehicles, because I wouldn't assault GK with warbikes. Shoot, my last few games my warbikes never saw CC....they were mobile dakka.

Piroko wrote:Yes, the wound shenanigans are important enough to make your squads cost 20 points more if you are ever planning to run this against anything else, storm bolter rounds that punch through your nobs in mass numbers may kill a nob instead of just wound two. (notice though with those original squads that no actual point deviance was put in since I removed a Big Choppa and a Power Klaw and instead put in 5 combi-weapons, you actually gained 5 points) the 15 points you are wasting on Red Paint Job are meant for armies that sit as far back as possible, not an army that is charging right at you. He wants to get into CC, you do too, you will get there quick enough not to warrant 15 points.

See you removed a klaw to afford shenanigans making them cost me 15 or so + a klaw
He's not charging at me but explain force weapons and such please because i believe he has it horribly wrong

Piroko wrote:
I am still gonna tell you that you need to run the boys over Nobs. Nobs are good don't get me wrong, but if your opponent is almost guaranteed to go first (there will be that lone hammer I know) then you are going to be looking down the barrel of 2-4 force weapon attacks a turn (2 base, 3 if they charge or have a banner, 4 if they charge and have a banner) at weapon skill 5 he will be hitting on 4s, depending on group comp he may be str 5-6 and your guys may only be toughness 3. He will wound you around 4 or 5 times more than likely and auto wipe them if he has the banner due to activated force weapons. You lose about 1/3rd to half your nob squad in one go and if he is smart he will run the swords instead of the halberds for a 4+ invuln.

I have run boyz spam from time to time and it has done well. HOWEVER i do not always want to run boyz spam. I want to try other things. New ideas spark creation and tactics. Singly running 1 size fits all and tweaking to your needs is stale and may lead to a better record but you will have less fun. You will also have problems where you list cannot deal with certain things no matter what you do. Running different lists will lead to you winning these tougher games.

Piroko wrote:
If you truly want to go smashy in melee then run Dreads and laugh as your dreads kill 2-3 pallies a turn and only one of his guys has an option of fighting back. Running 2 KFF mechs insures they get to the front line and then having 5 of them run through his knights will more than likely be to much for him to handle. Or go mass boy spam and pick off a few pallies at a time with your one PK nob in the squads. I am assuming though that you only have the nobs for this little excursion though since you are so adamant about no boys and only nobs.

He hasnt taken pallies yet and boyz are easy to kill giving him confidence and momentum. This list makes a large part of what he does in a turn ineffective. I suggest when you criticize someone list you look from the perspective of A) not trying to make my list yours B) understanding the concept trying to be employed and working to help improve that concept while using your own experimental trials as a base for your advice

As for Red paint i shall curse you. Every time your 1" to short for anything you can blame me. 5pts is worth that extra inch. if 15 pts is worth 16% more kill. 5 pts is worth making it to the show.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here I like this list.
HQ
x2 warboss w/ PK 'eavy armour cybork 200
Troops
x2 6 Nobz & Painboy w/ 3 PK, 3 BC, Cyborks, banner, bosspole 640
Elites
x2 Burna's 450
Fast Attack
x2 3 Warbikers & Nob w/ Bosspole 320
Heavy
x4 BattleWagons w/ deffrolla, big shoota, Red Paint 480

The Cybork Burnas made no sense considering I hope they stay in their wagon. The Bikers will add nicely to the dual front as first contact harassers and their save will either eat up shots or deter them. I think i'l run this list for days to come

docbrown wrote:See you removed a klaw to afford shenanigans making them cost me 15 or so + a klaw
He's not charging at me but explain force weapons and such please because i believe he has it horribly wrong

Force weapons can take a psychic test to insta kill a model that has been wounded if I remember correctly, having a banner removes the need for psychic test. I still do not see the logic in cutting the cost of a unit actually costing you more points, you are now making it to where 7 of your guys will attack at initiative instead of 6 with your set up and you are now making it to where 2 wounds kills a nob instead of 11.

docbrown wrote:

I have run boyz spam from time to time and it has done well. HOWEVER i do not always want to run boyz spam. I want to try other things. New ideas spark creation and tactics. Singly running 1 size fits all and tweaking to your needs is stale and may lead to a better record but you will have less fun. You will also have problems where you list cannot deal with certain things no matter what you do. Running different lists will lead to you winning these tougher games.

I have run several ork lists and scenarios =/, I am telling you out right that runnign two large groups of nobs and 2 burna groups isnt going to do much against his knights, he beats you in close combat 8 out of 10 times roughly because he is so much faster than you and has a better possible invuln save (lord help you if he's running warding staves cause you will never get your PK attacks through).

docbrown wrote:

As for Red paint i shall curse you. Every time your 1" to short for anything you can blame me. 5pts is worth that extra inch. if 15 pts is worth 16% more kill. 5 pts is worth making it to the show.

With the proper movement you should never be 1" away does not equal 16% more effective. If you are running Deffrollas you have already given your front squad an additional inch or two since it is apart of the hull if I remember correctly. I have yet to have a game in the 30-40 some off games I have done with my orcs where 1 inch was the deal breaker for the kill.

docbrown wrote:

He hasnt taken pallies yet and boyz are easy to kill giving him confidence and momentum. This list makes a large part of what he does in a turn ineffective. I suggest when you criticize someone list you look from the perspective of A) not trying to make my list yours B) understanding the concept trying to be employed and working to help improve that concept while using your own experimental trials as a base for your advice

First and foremost I never tried to make your list mine, I run wagons, trukks, copters, buggies and 2 groups of lootas in my list. Did I suggest lootas? Did I suggest buggies or coptas? Didn't think so.

Second just looking at the list I can tell it is doomed to fail. If you are playing MSU knights he is going to barrage your defenseless wagons with psycannons and psyflemen until there is nothing left except foot slogging nobs and burnas that will share the same fate. If he is running Dreadknight heavy then he will shrug off alot of your PK blows and return in kind by wiping out a few nobs a turn. If he is playing Draigowing you may take a few paladins with you but ultimately his better speed and group strength will result in lots of dead nobs due to power weapons/warding staves.

I understand wanting to try something out but don't get defensive when someone tells you that it won't work well. If you are going to go onto a forum take the advice or leave it, don't assume that the advice givers do not see what you are doing. It is entirely possible that what you are doing just won't work and they are trying to save you a loss by helping you out.

As i knew GK they were the shootiest of marines. From what I understand you saying they are not.
Keep in mind he is not a standard GK player either and probably has no idea what driagowing is.

As for your "Advice"

You're not as constructive as you think you are. When you look at a list and tell the OP to take everything different. You may not have noticed but i did take some of your advice. And really need to read up on force weapons and tell him hes an idiot. The thing is in order to shift towards what you are doing i need to scrap everything. I see that now and know that what i'm trying to do wont work against REAL GK. However your advice never leant itself to listening to. It would have been more helpful to just come out and say

GK are going to out CC you everytime. You would be better off playing the numbers and running with boys. As i stated my list was meant to combat stormbolter spam as i assessed that as the biggest threat.

If you can look at a list and see it won't work period why not just say look this isn't going to work because...

Instead you call me silly for trying something.

Anyways clean slate

I need help building a list that works well mostly against GK or tyranid MC lists. The thing is. I have a restrictive board that prevents up the gut rushes unit walls ect. I play against highly shoot minded opponents. And vehicles are always the first thing to die. I don't wanna bring a bunch of trucks against all his psycannons as they will just die. According to you he will out CC me so then what do i do.

docbrown wrote:As i knew GK they were the shootiest of marines. From what I understand you saying they are not.
Keep in mind he is not a standard GK player either and probably has no idea what driagowing is.

As for your "Advice"

You're not as constructive as you think you are. When you look at a list and tell the OP to take everything different. You may not have noticed but i did take some of your advice. And really need to read up on force weapons and tell him hes an idiot. The thing is in order to shift towards what you are doing i need to scrap everything. I see that now and know that what i'm trying to do wont work against REAL GK. However your advice never leant itself to listening to. It would have been more helpful to just come out and say

GK are going to out CC you everytime. You would be better off playing the numbers and running with boys. As i stated my list was meant to combat stormbolter spam as i assessed that as the biggest threat.

If you can look at a list and see it won't work period why not just say look this isn't going to work because...

Instead you call me silly for trying something.

Anyways clean slate

I need help building a list that works well mostly against GK or tyranid MC lists. The thing is. I have a restrictive board that prevents up the gut rushes unit walls ect. I play against highly shoot minded opponents. And vehicles are always the first thing to die. I don't wanna bring a bunch of trucks against all his psycannons as they will just die. According to you he will out CC me so then what do i do.

Grey Knights have three modes from what I have seen so far: MSU shooty where they spam out razorbacks with TL-Psycannons, Draigowing (which is what my buddy plays) and Big knights that have Dreads and Dreadknights. Knights have decent shooting but excel in CC with their terminators. They do run into trouble with capture missions though due to low troop count.

I said it was silly cause it was =P you came off as seeming that boys were horrible when they are one of the best point investments available. Fighting GK with Orks will be difficult, he will win most combats for sure due to durability and force weapons along with your general lack of power weapons. A list that runs several shoota boys along with KFF big meks may work out well and have tie up units and alpha striking copters if he is running Razorbacks, you'll probably trade your copter for his Razorback but it's a good trade. Massing out Shootas will force lots of armor saves while keeping you just out of charge range, you can back them up with lootas or lobbas (if your feelin lucky with pinning tests). The deffrolla battlewagons are always good, especially if he is running low counts of demon hammers. Nothing like seeing him have a small chance at a penning your vehicle and you getting 2d6 str 10 attacks against his squad.
You can actually put them together to get a mobile shooting fortress, ramming the enemy and then shooting the survivors with your battlewagons big shoota along with either a burna squad to fry them or massed shoota boy shots. I would suggest for the most part trying to put out as many shots as possible against him to force as many saves as possible. As for heavy support you may also want to consider Kans with KMB, it isn't seen often so it may throw him off guard and those str 8 ap 2 will tear through paladins or whatever other infantry he decides to field against you.

i like boyz i just thought i would try tomax my nobz after one 6 man pb armor pk squad occupied half of his army just to kill it.

ok he likes to run a librarian with 10 terminators and all the fixins
multiple combated strike squads some dreadknights ect.
NO TRANSPORTS EVER
HE HAS NEVER USED A DEDICATED TRANSPORT AS IG OR GK
he loads up on all the highest strength weapons possible.

now recently his stormbolters did a number on my boys. 100 pts of strike squad killed 200 pts of boyz. I aways want to run transports but they will just get destroyed.
the thing i hate about boyz is to tun them well i comit so much points i can take dick all.

A question, how can 100 point Strike Squad which can fire 10 x S4 shots kill 200 point Boyz unit which is about 30 Boyz? There isn't enough shots to match the wounds and that's providing they hit and wound everything. I think you've made a mistake there.

not in one turn sorry

Ah right, was gonna say what you worrying about

I think that if you are going to do this you need to listen to the nob advices, seeing as this is what you will be running. My advice to you is that if you are going to lean heavily on nobs, go all the way.
If you do not kit them out properly, field in enough force or play as something they are not you will be eaten by GK.
However i do have faith in nobz beeing able to dish out a can of woopass. The proplem lies in the fact that they may not hit hard enough, because like allready pointed out you will not be striking first, so working in some more support might be what's needed here in order to make your nobz do what they're supposed to do.

I have comepletely changed tactics
http://alt40k.blogspot.com/2011/10/smog-rolls-in.html

3 man bike squads are not going to last with all the shooting that GK's can throw your way. I do agree that is alot of dakka and believe me your going to need it. Those bikes squads are doomed.

How many Psycannons does he run? Does he give his GK's psybolt ammo? If he does then you are even more Doomed!

Unlike most people I run my GK's more of a shooting army and I can tell you, you will be hurting.

I do like the kannons as I think they will help tremendously. All I can say is good luck.

Now I say this all with a grain of salt as I don't know yours or his tactics. I am just speaking from experience with GK's as well as Orks.

well what would you suggest sir

Balsak, doesn't your Kan Wall do well against GK?

Well from experience I have not played againts a GK's army. There is only 2 players that have GK"s at my LGS, I am one of them.

I believe that it would have a pretty good chance at beating them yes.

Doc you say your "friend" or what have you plays odd GK's with no transports. So I guessing he sits there and shoots? If that is the case then You have a good idea with mobile mad fire. I am just saying 3 man bike sqauds will die so fast and there is nothing you can do about it. Maybe turn them into 6 man that might have some more survivability.

I think you have the right idea to try to shoot him down and then hopefully assault the few that might be left. But it is going to be really hard to do that with there amount of fire power at the 24" range. You have to figure out how to mitagate that. Right now I could tell you how as the other GK player plays Palies and SRavens. He wanted to get close and in CC as soon as possible.

I think you have a pretty good chance with not having to take out tranports then deal with what is inside. You have the chance to just kill him at range and that is why I think the kannans and lootas are key in this list. Something just need to be done about your troops and what not.

If you want to go with the wazzdakka kinda list and just be mean here is something that I put together. I would never run this as its just kinda ploan and boring to me but I think it has the potential to kill GK's at range.

Wazzdakka

Lootas x10
Lootas x10
Lootas x10

Bikes x8(wazzdakka here)
-Nob: PK,BP
Bikes x9
-Nob: PK,BP
Bikes x9
-Nob: PK,BP

Trakks x3
-T-L Rokkits
Trakks x3
-T-L Rokkits
Trakks x3
-T-L Rokkits

Guns: x3
-12 gretchin
-Kannons
Guns: x3
-12 gretchin
-Kannons
Guns: x3
-12 gretchin
-Kannons

This is what I would do to kill GK's if I wanted to just kill him. Honestly he probably wouldn't want to play you again.

You kill what you can with the trakks and use them to cover bikes if need be. The bikes kill things when they can and assault small squads after the lootas and kannons shoot them until they are almost dead.

Again I don't think you will be making friends with this list.

our freindship is based on being asssholes to eachother
this might work nicely

Fair enough. Then good luck!

It's got a lot of promise. I wouldn't assault unless you're just speeding up tabling him. In CC, bikes don't have the staying power against power weapons for 25 points each.

Big Mek + Shokk attack gun = Vanishing Grey Knights

Big men with shok = unreliable waste of points