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Hi all,

I'm confused about this new Apoc II book. It sounds like you can use forgeworld models in normal 40K now.
But, I can't find anything that really confirms or denies this.

Can any of you confirm or deny if some of these units are legal in normal 40k?

Thanks

Apocalypse isn't normal 40K. Yes, you can use FW in Apoc. You can pretty much use anything you want.

Why would you think units from the Apocalypse II book would be useable in normal 40K?

Normal?

"Normally" it is rulebook and codex.

Outside of that, anything you and your opponent agree upon is allowed in a game.

If you are meaning for tournaments or somesuch, you would have to ask the TO, they generally state what is allowed.

Even so, if the book is labeled as "Apocalypse" it would seem odd to assume they were meant for "normal" 40k and not Apocalypse.

The reason I ask is apparently there are sections that say, Apoc Rules and 40K rules.

It tells you at the start. There is even a note about what this means in practice.

Yes, FW units marked as for use in 40k are as "official" as codexes. This does not, in any way shape or form, have to effect what you must play against.

For friendly play - EVERYTHING is opponents consent
For Tournaments - whatever the TO says goes.

Yep, new book does indeed state what is for normal 40K, and what is for Apoc.
But, as above, it's down to consent as always. it's as official as any Codex, but you can't MAKE people face it.

But it's not the same as a white dwarf chapter approved or an offical codex. Cause, while it's allowed in normal 40K a person an opponent can choose to not allow it, where as they can't do that same with something in an offical dex.

For example, a person can tell me that I can't use the malanthrope. But they can't tell me I can't use the swarmlord.

I don't have to get approval for units in the dex but I dont for forge world.

ZombieJoe wrote:But it's not the same as a white dwarf chapter approved or an offical codex. Cause, while it's allowed in normal 40K a person an opponent can choose to not allow it, where as they can't do that same with something in an offical dex.

For example, a person can tell me that I can't use the malanthrope. But they can't tell me I can't use the swarmlord.

I don't have to get approval for units in the dex but I dont for forge world.

Sure they can. They an just refuse to play you, exactly like the FW stuff.
People generally DON'T, but any game relies on the other person agreeing to your Codex ultimately.

So perhaps it was the context I'm confused by or something else entirely.

You can use FW as you see fit (excluding structure points and gargantuan creatues). People can refuse to play you, but I already knew that. What I was trying to figure out, and think I did, is that FW can now be legally used in a normal game of 40K. And as tournaments go, its up to the TO (as usual).

So I suppose I got my answer, thanks! Malanthrope go!

ZombieJoe wrote:What I was trying to figure out, and think I did, is that FW can now be legally used in a normal game of 40K.

It always could. Everything that happens in a game of 40K happens by mutual consent of both players. Whether or not it says in a book 'Hey, you can use this' makes little difference if someone doesn't want to play against it.

You can use anything you and your opponent agree to in any 40k game, even structure points and gargantuan creatures.

Finding folks that agree to on a pick-up game basis may not be common, however. ymmv

/shrug

Luckily, my club is cool. Everyone uses FW stuff all the time in all games and tourneys there \o/

I still feel that there is a difference. I can show up to a pick up game and pull out anything in my dex and there should be no issues. But, if I start pulling out FW models, I can see this being construded as illegal because it's not "Offically" part of 40K. And that the player would be in the right to refuse to play it. If a person showed up to a pick up game and refused to play against a model in a codex, then chances are he's not a very good sportsman.

To be fair, I do not generally include playing with regular clubs, regular opponents, tournaments, or anyone that you have an arranged gaming agreement with as a pick-up game.

That is probably just me, though.

Except it is officially part of 40K, and they have no more or less right than any other unit. Ie, they are entirely free to play or not.

I, for example, am bored stiff of playing against Grey Knights, so I don't. And nobody can make me.

I will, however, play against FW stuff. Which is just as valid a choice as NOT playing against GK armies (usually...if somebody actually shows some imagination and it's not clone list #324234, I will).

I see your point.

I do understand your point, in that people do feel that there is a difference, and that affects what you might want to use.
But ultimately, just ask.

It's not like most FW stuff is overpowered or anything...quite the opposite normally.

Harrower wrote:Except it is officially part of 40K,

Nope... It is a 40k expansion, always has been. It is not official or codex legal. The new book did not change this and does not change this for retroactive FW.

For friendly play - EVERYTHING is opponents consent
For Tournaments - whatever the TO says goes.

Which for most people is NO FW.

ZombieJoe wrote:I still feel that there is a difference. I can show up to a pick up game and pull out anything in my dex and there should be no issues. But, if I start pulling out FW models, I can see this being construded as illegal because it's not "Offically" part of 40K.

The big problem a lot of players have with Forgeworld stuff is simply a lack of familiarity. Everyone has easy access to the normal 40K codexes. Forgeworld stuff tends to be less common, and so people aren't as familiar with the rules. That gets combined with the common perception that Forgeworld's rules are unbalanced (how that makes any difference compared to the regular codexes I have no idea) to result in people not wanting that stuff sprung on them without prior arrangement.

That's not going to change just because Forgeworld says you can use their rules.

If a person showed up to a pick up game and refused to play against a model in a codex, then chances are he's not a very good sportsman.

Or he just has a reason for not liking that model.

Waaay back in 2nd edition, towards the end of that edition's lifespan, it wasn't uncommon for people to refuse to play against armies with Psykers in them, as the psychic phase had come to dominate the game and you had to have a high-level psyker in yur army if your opponent did, or you were doomed. There were also a couple of perfectly legal army builds (The all-terminator, all cyclone/assault cannon Wolf Guard army springs to mind) that people would refuse to play. Not because they were poor sports, but because those armies simply weren't fun to play against.

There's not much in the game quite as extreme as some of what was possible back then, but the same thing applies. If someone has come across a particular build or a particular model that they think is unbalanced or ruins their game, they're not always going to be keen to play against it. So the presence of that build or model in your army may very well be enough for them to refuse to play, codex-legal or not.

nkelsch wrote:

Harrower wrote:Except it is officially part of 40K,

Nope... It is a 40k expansion, always has been. It is not official or codex legal. The new book did not change this and does not change this for retroactive FW.

For friendly play - EVERYTHING is opponents consent
For Tournaments - whatever the TO says goes.

Which for most people is NO FW.

Exactly. So it's 100% exactly as official as everything else.

If a TO says "No Blood Angels", then thats not allowed either. It's the EXACT same rules for everything.

I can see where you are coming from. I hesitate with FW cause it's too expensive to buy and never field. And I don't really play Apoc...yet...

Ah, well, now the cost is a whole other issue, and one most people share

nkelsch wrote:Which for most people is NO FW.

Most polls I've ever seen done usually have most of the votes sitting in one of 3 answers:
"I'll play it if I can check the rules first"
"You give me a little notice"
"Hell yes"

Remember that in the preface of the first IA Apoc book, the book updates all of the models that were in the out of print books like IA Update 2006, et al. So, unless the model is a super-heavy or flyer without a rule like "treat as a fast skimmer" then those models are as usable in "normal 40K" as any IA hardcover.

Homer

Baragash wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Which for most people is NO FW.

Most polls I've ever seen done usually have most of the votes sitting in one of 3 answers:
"I'll play it if I can check the rules first"
"You give me a little notice"
"Hell yes"

the first 2 options basically mean they screen for the 10% of broken FW stuff and then refuse to play against it.

Also a lot of people use casual play to prepare and practice for tourneys. Playing against forgeworld is a waste of their time and effort as they will not see it at tourneys.

GW has not made FW 'codex legal' the way old chapter approved was or the new sisters codex is. Until it is, it is seen as a 'sometimes, not competitive' addition to the game. GW has ways of making things part of the core ruleset and they still have chosen to keep FW rules an optional expansion and it is treated as such.

nkelsch wrote:the first 2 options basically mean they screen for the 10% of broken FW stuff and then refuse to play against it.

You mean the 3 or 4 units, not 10%, but either way screening =/= refusal.

nkelsch wrote:Also a lot of people use casual play to prepare and practice for tourneys. Playing against forgeworld is a waste of their time and effort as they will not see it at tourneys.

A lot as in a small amount of the wargaming population?
Also:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=250088&viewResults=true
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309857
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300253.page