Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

so it has come to my attention that the IG codex doesnt put a quantative limit on heavy weapon teams for infantry squads or Vet squads, the codex reads:

replace two veterans with a heavy weapons team armed with one of the following:

now i have never seen more than one per squad so i know that what was mentioned Here is ismpossible...isnt it? i know i cant run more than one in a squad...but why? because the RAW indicate the ability to run more than one.

Each option for a unit can only be taken 1 time each. You may only have 1 HSW. In the same way you can only have 1 special and heavy weapon in a Tac Squad.

Jordanis - if you replace 4 veterans with a HWT, have you replaced 2? No. This means that you broken the rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Jordanis - if you replace 4 veterans with a HWT, have you replaced 2? No. This means that you broken the rule.

no i replace 2 vets with a HWT, then another 2, then another 2, then another 2. following the RAW, i havent broken the rule yet

Deadshot wrote:Each option for a unit can only be taken 1 time each. You may only have 1 HSW. In the same way you can only have 1 special and heavy weapon in a Tac Squad.

the SM codex does set a numerical limit, it says you may exchange the bolter on one marine for a special weapon (cant find the codex on scribd to provide a quote)

my conclusion: wording could be better, and that RAW and RAI do not line up, yet again...

Yes you HAVE broken the rule. The rule lets you replace 2. You have replaced more than two, breaking the rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes you HAVE broken the rule. The rule lets you replace 2. You have replaced more than two, breaking the rule.

Yep, the fact that you can replace 2 guardsmen means you can only replace 2 with 1 Heavy Weapons team. If you think logically, if replacing more than 2 was intended, then what is the point of having heavy weapons squads? This rule isn't even ambiguous and I don't recall anyone ever trying to pull this one. Trying to argue for it being allowed is just petty and pedantic.

jordanis wrote:so it has come to my attention that the IG codex doesnt put a quantative limit on heavy weapon teams for infantry squads or Vet squads, the codex reads:

replace two veterans with a heavy weapons team armed with one of the following:

now i have never seen more than one per squad so i know that what was mentioned Here is ismpossible...isnt it? i know i cant run more than one in a squad...but why? because the RAW indicate the ability to run more than one.

And GW did an errata changing the text to this:

"Replace two other Veterans with a Veteran Weapons Team armed with one of the following:"

One HW team per vet squad.

Snarky wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes you HAVE broken the rule. The rule lets you replace 2. You have replaced more than two, breaking the rule.

Yep, the fact that you can replace 2 guardsmen means you can only replace 2 with 1 Heavy Weapons team. If you think logically, if replacing more than 2 was intended, then what is the point of having heavy weapons squads? This rule isn't even ambiguous and I don't recall anyone ever trying to pull this one. Trying to argue for it being allowed is just petty and pedantic.

UIt is similar top a problem newbies in my Local have with Tac Squadsd.

It says


In a 10 man squad, 1 model may rep[lace his bolter for


Missile Luncher, Heavy Bolter, or Multimelat for +Xpts
Plasma Cannon for +Ypts
Lascannon for +Zpts


People seem to think they can take 3, or even 5, because there is 5 options.

jordanis wrote:
no i replace 2 vets with a HWT, then another 2, then another 2, then another 2. following the RAW, i havent broken the rule yet

just to point out that by this logic you can have up to 9 Special weapons in the vets unit(by replacing up to three, then up to three again, then up to 3 again).

Or better yet a 5-squad infantry blob made up of 5 Sgts, 5 Plasma guns, and 20 Auto cannons(replacing 2 guardsmen with HWTs 4x/squad over 5 squads).

Or even better than that a 3-squad power blob with 3 sgts, 9 flamers, and 18 meltas(or invert the Specials mix); by repeeatedly having the limited 1 guardsman replacing their Lasguns for Flamers/meltas.

Replacing 2 guardsmen is the number of guardsmen you can replace, replacing any more(by doing it multiple times) breaks the rules of replacing 2 guardsmen.

There are 0 basic rules preventing the taking of any options more than once, this is purely made up(and has been a poor assumption for some time on this board and others); but the individual entries almost all, invariably, limit the options to a 1-off by virtue of their wording.

Don_Mondo: the word "other" added by the errata does not change anything about the entry in this area; what it does is limit you from replacing the Vox-caster(or other upgrade) equipped model as one of the 2 for the HWT.

Thank you kommissar kel, everyone else: try and use logic, not insults to get your point across, its rude and certainly breaks rule 1 of these forums...

jordanis wrote:
no i replace 2 vets with a HWT, then another 2, then another 2, then another 2. following the RAW, i havent broken the rule yet

The strongest point against this line of thinking is my boys mob, would you let me take a unit of 30 boys, upgrade all 30 to nobz.... MMmmm 16 point 30 strong nob mob.

All with untargetable Powerfists= OH HOLY FETH!!!!


No one would be able to take that on save for Flyers.

jayjester wrote:

jordanis wrote:
no i replace 2 vets with a HWT, then another 2, then another 2, then another 2. following the RAW, i havent broken the rule yet

The strongest point against this line of thinking is my boys mob, would you let me take a unit of 30 boys, upgrade all 30 to nobz.... MMmmm 16 point 30 strong nob mob.

but that argument is invalid because it reads "one boy may be upgraded to a nob for X points" where as the IG codex (with errata) reads "replace 2 other guardsmen/veterans with a HWT armed with one of the folowing" the RAW only put a maximum on the number of weapons the team itself can have, not that you can only have 1 HWT, and just to complicate this further: it DOES set a maximum for multiple upgrades in these FOC entries, (ie, max 1 heavy flamer per squad, 3 special weapons)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes you HAVE broken the rule. The rule lets you replace 2. You have replaced more than two, breaking the rule.

i have replaced 2 with 1 team 4 times, so i havent replaced 8, i have replaced 2 for 1 then another 2 for 1, then another 2 for 1 then another 2 for 1, in fact the adding of the word "other" actually helps my case.
if I replaced 3 guardsmen for 1 HWT then i would be breaking the rule.

jordanis wrote:i have replaced 2 with 1 team 4 times, so i havent replaced 8, ...

Basic arithmetic would seem to disagree.

Deadshot wrote:Each option for a unit can only be taken 1 time each. You may only have 1 HSW. In the same way you can only have 1 special and heavy weapon in a Tac Squad.

where does it say this?

Think carefully about that. your opponent will have a problem with taking 4 HWT, but replacing 3 models witha single HWT will not get too many problems, because you are effectivly losing a model.

insaniak wrote:

jordanis wrote:i have replaced 2 with 1 team 4 times, so i havent replaced 8, ...

Basic arithmetic would seem to disagree.

you completely missed my point

What 'point' would that be, exactly?

What, that you have replaced 8 models? Replacing 2 models 4 times is replacing MORE than two models.

You have permission to replace 2 models, no more. You dont actually HAVE a point - if you do, try rewording it so its a little less obtuse.

jordanis wrote:but that argument is invalid because it reads "one boy may be upgraded to a nob for X points" where as the IG codex (with errata) reads "replace 2 other guardsmen/veterans with a HWT armed with one of the folowing"

So you're saying that 'replace 1' means only 1, while 'replace 2' means 'any number, so long as it's 2 at a time'?

How does that make any sense?

jordanis wrote: you completely missed my point

No, I got your point. You're arguing that 2 x 4 equals 2 four times, rather than 8. Good luck with that.

You can replace 2 guardsmen. Just like the Orks can replace 1 boy. If you replace more than 2, you have broken the rule. 8 is not the same number as 2. 2 four times is 8, not 2.

Now that i read it... Its is dubious. But the impression you get from the 4th and 2nd bullets is that the 5th one limit the number of veterans you can replace.

And we clearly know that Infantry Squads could take only HWT, and the wording there is the same as in the Veterans.

So, i will say it is not possible...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

jordanis wrote: you completely missed my point

No, I got your point. You're arguing that 2 x 4 equals 2 four times, rather than 8. Good luck with that.

You can replace 2 guardsmen. Just like the Orks can replace 1 boy. If you replace more than 2, you have broken the rule. 8 is not the same number as 2. 2 four times is 8, not 2.

Insaniak, 2x4=8=2x4, so 2x4=2x4, so 4=8/2

Boyz rule clearly state that you can take one big shoota for each 10 boyz...

The situation here is the same as Dark Angels Terminators, who say you can take 1 Cyclone Missile Launcher for X points...

having just read the rules quoted a few times and looked in the main 40k book and everywhere else i could think of to find a clarification, I find that there is no ABSOLUTE ruling on the afore mentioned scenario. If he would really want to take 8 veteran squad members and break them up into veteran weapons teams, I cannot find a quotable source that rules against it. BUT!!! As every guard codex previous has set a limit of 1 heavy weapon team per squad limit, than RAI would be that you may only take such an upgrade once. To argue a case otherwise would be IMO VERY poor sportsmanship, I'd stick with one per team and enjoy the game!

Kai wrote: If he would really want to take 8 veteran squad members and break them up into veteran weapons teams, I cannot find a quotable source that rules against it.

How about the codex specifying "replace two veterans with a heavy weapons team armed with one of the following:">

That says you may replace 2.

you can not replace more than 2, since it does not say two or more.

Replace 2 vets with a HWT does not allow you to replace 4 vets with 2HWT's now does it?

People are trying to read into the rules a bit too much and missing key parts.

if it said 2 or more that means i could replace 8 veterans with 1 heavy weapon team, not 4 like i am suggesting, there is nowhere in the rulebook/codex that states that an option that doesnt include a maximum number of uses can only be used once, its just that usually taking said option more than once tends to be useless...except this is not one of those cases, i think people just assume that there is a maximum set there when really there isnt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Replace 2 vets with a HWT does not allow you to replace 4 vets with 2HWT's now does it?

People are trying to read into the rules a bit too much and missing key parts.

where does is explicitly say i cannot do that though? everyones argument against my theory has to do with sportsmanship/implied rules.

umm because if you replace 4 vets with 2 HWT's than you've broke it

Read the part about 2 vets ... 1 HWT thats the part.

jordanis wrote:where does is explicitly say i cannot do that though? everyones argument against my theory has to do with sportsmanship/implied rules.

The permissive ruleset tells us what we are allowed to do.

The rules must tell you you can do something otherwise you can't.

By your theory of "where does is explicitly say i cannot do that though?" I can smash your models with my land raider as I tank shock/Ram every unit within 12 inches of my vehicle...

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Insaniak, 2x4=8=2x4, so 2x4=2x4, so 4=8/2

Sorry, I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Boyz rule clearly state that you can take one big shoota for each 10 boyz...

Yes. And by the logic being presented by jordanis, that means that you can take 1 big shoota. And then you can take 1 big shoota. And then you can take 1 big shoota. Because you haven't taken 3 big shootas... you've taken 1 big shoota 3 times. Which apparently doesn't equal 3.

The easiest way to really handle this is, try to build the unit in army builder. I just did and got a little red flag under the heading of "Error, too many heavy weapons, veterans squad"

You do realize that Army Builder is not an official GW product and the datafiles are put together by volunteers who have no special insight into the rules. What Army Builder does or does not say is inconsequential.