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Hey, I'm just getting started in apocalypse, and I have a few questions. Some of the stuff in the Apocalypse rulebook is kinda outdated and/or unclear.
1. when shooting at super-heavy vehicles, do AP1 weapons still get to add 1 on the damage table or not? Also other weapons that get to do that, like Seismic hammers, etc. What about if the super-heavy is open-topped, do I get to add 1?
2. Each thunder hammer that delivers damge to super-heavy vehicles adds a gun-crew shaken result in addition to their other damage? Eg., if a unit of termies with thunderhammers hits a baneblade and 4 of the hits are either glancing or penetrating, they'll give it 4 gun-crew shaken results, preventing it from firing 4 guns next turn?
3. For gargantuan creatures getting hit with blasts, if the hole in the blast marker is not over the creature's base, are they still affected normally by the blast or is the strength halved like for vehicles? It has something about being hit on a 4+ like normal, but I know that's not normal anymore.
4. What's this about penetrating hits being downgraded to glancing hits for flyers? Since it says that flyers always follow the same rules for skimmers moving over 12", I'm guessing that in the present edition of warhammer this means that they have a 4+ cover save instead.
5. It never says clearly, but I'm guessing Destroyer weapons ignore armor saves?
6. Hydra. It seems there are two versions; one in Apocalypse and one in regular 40K. Do the rules combine or what? Why is one tank worth 200 points in apocalypse but only 75 in regular? Do I still get the Autotargeting rule in apocalypse? Can I still field a squad of 3 for the same amout of points I would in regular 40K?
7. The Hellstrike Missiles carried by the Thunderhawk are listed as Heavy, but shouldn't they be Ordnance?

Just a few things I've come up with now, probably more later.

1. the only modifiers that affect Super-Heavy is the type of hit (glancing or penetrating) and if its a Destroyer (Str "D") Weapon.
2. Not sure about Crew Shaken/Gun Crew Shaken result. Probably would cause Gun Crew Shaken, and if it did, you would have 4 Shaken result, allowing you to choose which 4 weapons cannot fire.
3. Not sure. I would play it that it gets hit on a 4+. Regardless, the hit still uses its regular Strength.
4. Again not sure, would play it as moving over 12" treats as obscured (4+).
5. Destroyer Weapons almost always ignore armor due to being AP1 (I have yet to see a Destroyer weapon that was AP3 or worse). Destroyer Weapons do ignore Cover saves though.
6. The rules do not combine as the 2 Hydras are different. Apoc Hydra is designed for anti-aircraft. Regular Hydras out of the IG codex would keep any special rules that they already have. You can still field 3 Codex Hydras as 1 unit, however the Apoc Hydra is a single tank.
7. The Hellstrike missile is similar to a Hunter-Killer Missile in that it only hits 1 model. Ordnance weapons are always blast.

Happyjew wrote:
7. The Hellstrike missile is similar to a Hunter-Killer Missile in that it only hits 1 model. Ordnance weapons are always blast.

I don't know Apoc, but I know this part is quite wrong.

Hellstrike missle is an ordnance one shot missle(Pulled from IG Codex)
it is not a Blast weapon

Not all ordnance is blast

If I was wrong about Hellstrike missile I apologize, I don't own C:IG. As far as I knew, all Ordnance weapons were blast weapons due to a possible misunderstanding on pg 58 of the bgb.

1. You get ap 1 and Str d, so +2 on the table.
2. Yes
3. Your talking about partial hits, that don't exist any more. Full strength on gargantuan creatures.
4. It means you always put a -2 on the damage table when firing at skimmers, also keep in mind you need 6's to hit them unless you have a gun with the AA rule.
5. They ignore armor, cover and cause instant death.
6. You can choose which version to take.
7. You go by what the profile in the apoc book says.

Happyjew wrote:If I was wrong about Hellstrike missile I apologize, I don't own C:IG. As far as I knew, all Ordnance weapons were blast weapons due to a possible misunderstanding on pg 58 of the bgb.

That says all Ordnance Blast weapons are Large Blast. It does NOT require that Ordnance is always blast.

They have updated the rules for apocalypse in IA Apoc 2nd edition, so jurai is right on 1

Also MOST D weapons are actually AP2 - the AX1-0 is AP1 Strength D for a total of _1

"Gun Crew Shaken" is NOT "crew shaken", so TH / etc do NOT add these results to the vehicle - unless you can find a rule stating otherwise

Gargantuan creatures are hit as normal, no half strength

Flyers get a permanent 4+ cover save

Hydra - use the version you paid for, either the very expensive one or the cheap one that isnt AA

Hellstrikes have been upgraded on P23 of the IA Apoc 2nd Edition book to be Ordnance

Hm, okay. Thanks all! So basically,
1. From the updates in IA, you still get the benefits for AP1 weapons against super-heavies. Still no concensus on open-topped super-heavies.
2. Thunderhammers don't add any special damages to super-heavy vehicles? Then why do titan-hunters use them?
3. I figured that it was referring to partial hits. In 5th Ed, those don't exist and anything partially under template is still hit. Except vehicles, which you halve the strength of the hit. But the gargantuan creatures aren't vehicles, so...I shoulda seen that before.
4. Flyers count as skimmers always moving flat out, so 4+ cover save.
5. Destroyer weapons--simple mistake on my part. Of course, that's why they have an AP value. It's not part of the Destroyer rule.
6. Rats. So I have to pay 200 points for a single hydra in Apoc just so it can be AA? That's ridiculous, I'll probably have to find some other air defence option.
7. Hellstrikes work just like in the regular 40K. Yeah, the only thing the rulebook says about ordnance is that unless specified, ordnance blast weapons always use the large blast. In the IG FAQs, they address that issue for the hellstrike. It's a non-blast ordnance weapon (so roll two dice and apply the higher result).


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Actually, on the subject of hydras, if I use the regular 40K hydras, will the auto-targeting rule negate the 4+ cover save of flyers? Since it does that for skimmers, and flyers count as skimmers.

2) Strength 8 mainly.

Yes, you dont get 4+ cover for moving like a fast skimmer, however youre hitting on 6's

Fallanir wrote:
3. For gargantuan creatures getting hit with blasts, if the hole in the blast marker is not over the creature's base, are they still affected normally by the blast or is the strength halved like for vehicles? It has something about being hit on a 4+ like normal, but I know that's not normal anymore.
4. What's this about penetrating hits being downgraded to glancing hits for flyers? Since it says that flyers always follow the same rules for skimmers moving over 12", I'm guessing that in the
5. It never says clearly, but I'm guessing Destroyer weapons ignore armor saves?

3. No, they are hit with the regular strength value, and no, they are hit automatically, rather than on a 4+. That was an old rule from 4th Ed.

4. Again, this was in 4th Ed, and has been updated so that Flyers are damaged as normal, but always get the 3+ Flat-Out Save.

5: No, they auto-wound, which if unsaved, inflicts Instant Death, but you would still get armour saves against it. It's just that all Destroyer weapons are Ap2/1, but if you had an Ap- Destroyer, then even Ripper Swarms and Ork Boyz would get armour saves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) Strength 8 mainly.

In that case, you're better off with chainfists.

Teln wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) Strength 8 mainly.

In that case, you're better off with chainfists.

yeah, that's what i'm wondering. why take them instead of power fists or chain fists? I guess since it's unclear you can just play them as inflicting gu crew shaken results with opponent's consent. that's what i would do.

Not everything in Apoc is a superheavy or giant. TH still work against the 1000s of other points on the table

How is it "unclear"?

Crew Shaken is NOT Gun Crew Shaken, in the same way Stormbolter is not Bolter is not Heavy Bolter.

When something has a defined name you cant just pretend "close enough" and claim something is unclear.

RAW is very, very, very clear. Oh, ad the reason for TH? The SS that comes with it.

As far as i am aware, there are no open topped heavies.

Some of the baneblade variants say they count as open topped for the purposes of troops embarking/disembarking....but this does not make the vehicle itself open topped.

Strength D weapons ignore armour, ignore cover, auto-pen vehicles, caus einstant death on infantry/MCs and cause D3 wounds on Gargantuan creatures.........i need to use my Shadowsword more often.





While we're n the subject of apoc though. Looking at air defense.....whats the ruling on Ordnance weapons firing at flyers? I know everything needs a 6 to hit unless they are pintle/AA mounted....but Ordnance doesn' roll to hit. Would they just scatter the full 2D6 with no scatter? Or is it juist assumed that they cant target flyers at all? ( i apologise but i am at work and dont have my apoc book to hand). you woudl think an accurate sho

Praxiss wrote:As far as i am aware, there are no open topped heavies.

Gorgon springs to mind

I stand corrected.



/shame

PRaxis - "ignore armour". Strength D does NOT inherently ignore armour. It just doesnt. There just arent any that i know of that arent also AP2 or AP1

Ordnance - Ordnance DOES roll to hit, it is only Ordnance Blast that doesnt. And Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers.

Fair enough.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How is it "unclear"?

Crew Shaken is NOT Gun Crew Shaken, in the same way Stormbolter is not Bolter is not Heavy Bolter.

When something has a defined name you cant just pretend "close enough" and claim something is unclear.

RAW is very, very, very clear. Oh, ad the reason for TH? The SS that comes with it.

Yeah, bad wording on my part. Didn't mean it's unclear, I just think that thunder hammers should have some extra effect on superheavies just like they do on regular vehicles. But you're right, it's not unclear. It just doesn't say anything about shaking the superheavy. I think it makes sense that they'd inflict a gun crew shaken result, as that's the super-heavy equivalent of the regular crew shaken result for regular vehicles, but meh, the RAW don't allow that. However, they don't disallow it, so I think if I had TH I'd try to pull that off, with opponent's consent of course. If not, no big deal.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:2) Strength 8 mainly.

Yes, you dont get 4+ cover for moving like a fast skimmer, however youre hitting on 6's

Yeah, I thought about it, here's what I came up with.

200 points for single hydra. No auto-targeting rule, so can't double as a skimmer/bike killer. AA guns though.
Shooting a flyer: 4 shots, 3 hits (using BS 3, 2 hit right off, re-roll other 2 cause of Twin-linked and make 1), 1 or 2 make it past the 4+ cover save. Possible penetrating hit.

vs

225 points for three hydras. No AA guns, but auto-targeting rule.
Shooting a flyer: 12 shots, 3 hits (using 6s to hit flyers, two hit right off, re-roll other 9 cause of Twin-linked, make 1 for sure), all ignore the 4+ cover save, 1 penetrating hit for sure and possibly another if lucky.

I think I'd much rather go the 3 regular hydra route, since against flyers they're actually a bit better, AND can target skimmers and bikes.

FWIW, the IA1 update on the FW website actually gives the Hydra the AA Mount special rule, while keeping the cost and rules of the normal codex Hydra.

Funnily enough, this also means the Heavy Bolter on the hull also has the AA Mount special rule.

Okay, I see different things than other people are posting. So:

1) AP1 weapons gain no bonus. Only weapon modifiers that exist in Apoc is destructor weapon +1, glancing -2. Nothing else. (Pg 93.) If a vehicle is open-topped, it matters not if it is super-heavy or not, +1 to damage chart. (Pg 92.)

2)No official rules, though I would say pick 'X' weapons not to shoot. Doesn't have 'X' weapons? Then it becomes a driver stunned with all guns stunned.

3)Rules say that the blast affects them as normal. It also says that it hits them off the base on a 4+. (Pg 91.) I would rectify this, for simplicity's sake, to say on base=hit, off=half strength.

4)You are correct. Old rules (Pg 94.) say that if a flyer moves over 12" all shots are downgraded to glancing from pen. To make it more new, I would say give a 4+ cover.

5)As stated earlier, almost all destructor weapons are AP2 or better. But the rule also says that it ignores cover, and the only save that applies is Invul. Nevertheless, ID applies to any unsaved wound.

6 and 7 I don't know. But 1-5 I am positive on

Strength D only causes 1 wound to Gargantuan Creatures, not d3. Strength D inflicts Instant Death, Gargantuan Creatures are immune to Instant Death and only take 1 wound.

The d3 in the rules is for weapons that kill outright without inflicting Instant Death. Things like "Gift of Chaos", or JotWW. Not that those two examples work due to Gargantuan Creatures being immune to Psychic Powers that don't have a Strength. Force Weapons fell in this category in 4th, but now they inflict Instant Death so no longer cause d3 wounds.

All the latest Imperial Armor update the apoc rules to add AP 1 rules. Remember AP 1 rules were changed after apoc came out.

You have to look at the new Apoc book the first one is outdated as was mentioned. in the new one ap1 does get a bonus vs superheavies, and im 99% sure there is a paragraph in there saying superheavies dont get the -1 for opentopped. i dont have my books with me on deployment but i faced a gorgon last time i had my 25k battle and we found it in one of the books that it doesnt suffer -1 its just too big! haha. the new apoc also has updated rules for flyers.

You mean the IA Apoc Second Edition? I knew i should have bought it at Games Day!!!

Praxiss wrote:You mean the IA Apoc Second Edition? I knew i should have bought it at Games Day!!!

Oops. I must have the old one!!

As far as i am aware there are now 5 apo books:

Apocolypse
Apoc reload
IA Apoc
IA Apoc 2
IA Apoc Second Edition

From what i understadn the rules and datasheets in the lates IA book overwrites pretty much everythgin in the previous IA books.

not quite - the 2nd edition updtes only IA Apoc

Ok. Still well worth getting it though.....

<starts checking down the side of the sofa for change>

Definitely worth getting it. It has all the updated rules and new units you could want, really....the contemptor dreads, especially the Chaos ones, are awesome

You will also love the crassus variant teaser photo - multiple bombards