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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/17 23:47:29
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Calculating Commissar
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http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/texas_conservatives_reject_harpers_crime_plan/2b172224 Texas conservatives reject Harper's crime plan 17/10/2011 6:17:28 PM CBC News Conservatives in the United States' toughest crime-fighting jurisdiction - Texas - say the Harper government's crime strategy won't work. "You will spend billions and billions and billions on locking people up," says Judge John Creuzot of the Dallas County Court. "And there will come a point in time where the public says, 'Enough!' And you'll wind up letting them out." Adds Rep. Jerry Madden, a conservative Republican who heads the Texas House Committee on Corrections, "It's a very expensive thing to build new prisons and, if you build 'em, I guarantee you they will come. They'll be filled, OK? Because people will send them there. "But, if you don't build 'em, they will come up with very creative things to do that keep the community safe and yet still do the incarceration necessary." These comments are in line with a coalition of experts in Washington, DC, who attacked the Harper government's omnibus crime package, Bill C-10, in a statement Monday. "Republican governors and state legislators in such states of Texas, South Carolina, and Ohio are repealing mandatory minimum sentences, increasing opportunities for effective community supervision, and funding drug treatment because they know it will improve public safety and reduce taxpayer costs," said Tracy Velázquez, executive director of the Washington-based Justice Policy Institute. "If passed, C-10 will take Canadian justice policies 180-degrees in the wrong direction, and Canadian citizens will bear the costs." A state with a record On a recent trip to Texas, an array of conservative voices told CBC News that Texas tried what Canada plans to do - and it failed. As recently as 2004, Texas had the highest incarceration rate in the world, with fully one in 20 of its adult residents behind bars or on parole or probation. The Lone Star state still has the death penalty, with more than 300 prisoners on death row today. But for three decades, as crime rates fell all over the U.S., the rate in Texas fell at only half the national average. That didn't change the policy - but its cost did. Faced with a budget crisis in 2005, the Texas statehouse was handed an estimate of $2 billion to build new prisons for a predicted influx of new prisoners. They told Rep. Madden to find a way out. He and his committee dug into the facts. Did all those new prisoners really need to go to jail? And did all of those already behind bars really need to be there? Madden's answer was, no. He found that Texas had diverted money from treatment and probation services to building prisons. But sending people to prison was costing 10 times as much as putting them on probation, on parole, or in treatment. "I was kinda silly, what we were doing," says Madden. Then, he discovered that drug treatment wasn't just cheaper - it cut crime much more effectively than prison. That was the moment, he says, when he knew: "My colleagues are gonna understand this. The public is gonna understand this...The public will be safer and we will spend less money!" His colleagues agreed. Texas just said no to the new prisons. Instead, over the next few years, it spent a fraction of the $2 billion those prisons would have cost - about $300 million - to beef up drug treatment programs, mental health centres, probation services and community supervision for prisoners out on parole. It worked. Costs fell and crime fell, too. Now, word of the Canadian government's crime plan is filtering down to Texas and it's getting bad reviews. Marc Levin, a lawyer with an anti-tax group called Right on Crime, argues that building more prisons is a waste of taxpayers' money. "We've see a double-digit decline in the last few years in Texas, both in our prison incarceration rate and, most importantly in our crime rate," says Levin. "And the way we've done it is by strengthening some of the alternatives to prison." The statistics bear him out. According to the Texas Department of Corrections, the rate of incarceration fell 9 per cent between 2005 and 2010. In the same period, according to the FBI, the crime rate in Texas fell by 12.8 per cent. By contrast, Levin says, the Canadian government has increased the prison budget sharply, even though crime in Canada is down to its lowest level since 1973. In fact, federal spending on corrections in Canada has gone up from $1.6 billion in 2005-06, when Stephen Harper's Conservatives took power, to $2.98 billion in 2010-1011. That's an increase of 86 per cent. Soon, it will double. The Harper government has already increased prison sentences by scrapping the two-for-one credit for time served waiting for trial. Bill C-10 would add new and longer sentences for drug offences, increase mandatory minimums and cut the use of conditional sentences such as house arrest. In each case, Texas is doing the opposite. So are several other states - egged on by a group of hardline conservatives who have joined the Right on Crime movement. These include Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, former Speaker Newt Gingrich, the tax-fighter Grover Norquist and the former Attorney General for President Ronald Reagan, Ed Meese. That's not a list of liberals. Marc Levin says Canada is out of step with the best conservative thinking south of the border. "We've seen in the United States, states and conservative leaders moving in a much different direction than the Conservative Party is saying in Canada," he says. "I think the conservative thing to do is to be cost-effective and to hold offenders accountable. And, frankly, for many of them, they go to prison, they don't pay child support, they don't have to work in the private sector, they don't pay restitution - I don't believe that's holding people accountable." Hugging criminals? In Texas? What Levin means by accountability is what happens at Judge John Creuzot's drug court in Dallas. Thieves, drug addicts and drunk drivers must file into Creuzot's courtroom each week as a condition of their sentences. They're on probation with the threat of prison hanging over them. They must prove they are keeping up with their drug treatment. Judge Creuzot cajoles, threatens and lectures them to stick with the program - but he also rewards them when they succeed. If they graduate from treatment, clean and sober, he holds an awards ceremony in his courtroom. Then, he gives them a big, back-slapping Texas hug. "Congratulations, bro!" he says as he wraps his arms around a hulking ex-addict. "Proud of ya!" he says as he hugs another and places a medal around her neck. Hugs? From a judge in the state that gave us chain gangs? It's not your father's Texas. But Judge Creuzot isn't all hugs. He renders a blunt verdict when he is asked what's wrong with the Harper government's plan to get criminals off Canadian streets. "Nothing, if you don't mind spending a lot of money locking people up and seeing your crime rate go up! Nothing wrong with it at all!" Creuzot says prison just doesn't work as well as the less expensive methods he uses - because, one way or another, drugs and alcohol lie at the root of 80 per cent of crimes. "What we've learned," he says, "is that if you deal with those underlying issues with the proper assessments up front, doing that before you make a sentencing decision ... and you fund programs that will deal with that on a long-term basis, that you avoid sending thousands of people to prison." But isn't all the treatment expensive? "It's less expensive!" Creuzot snaps. "We had a university do a cost-benefit analysis. And every dollar we spend is worth $9 and 34 cents in avoided criminal justice costs." Other studies in Texas agree that treatment and probation services cost about one tenth of what it costs to build and run prisons. Besides that, offenders emerge much less likely to commit fresh crimes than those with similar records who go to prison. Getting results At Phoenix House, a drug treatment centre in Wilmer, just south of Dallas, Dr. Teresa May-Williams is a forensic psychologist, paid to assess the risk of letting offenders out on parole or in treatment. She's found that prison is even riskier. "We can't ignore the fact that our 'tough on crime' stance that puts a person in prison and assumes that their drug problem will somehow magically disappear while they're incarcerated and they'll never get out again and offend, is ridiculous!" she says. Dr. May-Williams says most offenders with drug or alcohol problems quickly resume their criminal lifestyle when they get out of prison. "The data showed that 60 per cent of those individuals will be out and committing a new crime in, on average, about 11 months." That's four times the rate of those who go through her six-month program instead. "A big focus of it is getting their drug problem under control," she says, "and then beginning to work on education, job training, getting them employed, getting them focused on becoming a tax payer rather than a tax user. The recidivism rate for probation, the same kind of offender, is somewhere around 15-16 per cent." A 'hopeless' case Equally striking is that even the hardest cases can respond to court-ordered treatment. Kathryn Griffin, by her own account, was a "hopeless" case. Loquacious, loud and candid, Griffin had six felonies on her record - for drug possession and prostitution - so she was facing 35 years to life in jail when she came to court in Dallas, yet again. "I'm a person who had a $30,000 a month cocaine habit for 22 years!" she says. But, "I am totally clean and sober today." And she's stayed clean for eight years - because, she says, she was a "guinea pig" in what was, back then, a new experiment: drug court. The judge gave her a choice: get clean in drug treatment or flunk out - and die in prison. She made it. Now, she has a job counselling street prostitutes, pays taxes and tells anyone who will listen that Texas, too, has changed its ways. "What I like about this state and our government is they are willing to listen, look, study, learn and see results." Left, right and middle-of-the-road Texans are recommending that Canada do the same - and the Conservatives most of all. I just found this a very interesting read, especially since this is what a lot of people in BC are calling for from the federal government. Definately food for thought for the Harper gov't. Of course, I'm not sure why Texas spent $300 mil on an overhaul when they could've just called Frazz and offered to cover his ammunition expenses in exchange for 'Dredd' justice.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/17 23:48:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 00:52:04
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Adds Rep. Jerry Madden, a conservative Republican who heads the Texas House Committee on Corrections, "It's a very expensive thing to build new prisons and, if you build 'em, I guarantee you they will come. They'll be filled, OK? Because people will send them there.
"But, if you don't build 'em, they will come up with very creative things to do that keep the community safe and yet still do the incarceration necessary."
This doesn't make sense unless "necessary" is given a very loose interpretation.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 00:54:58
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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dogma wrote:Adds Rep. Jerry Madden, a conservative Republican who heads the Texas House Committee on Corrections, "It's a very expensive thing to build new prisons and, if you build 'em, I guarantee you they will come. They'll be filled, OK? Because people will send them there.
"But, if you don't build 'em, they will come up with very creative things to do that keep the community safe and yet still do the incarceration necessary."
This doesn't make sense unless "necessary" is given a very loose interpretation.
I believe it is the name of a stripper at The Corn Hole down in San Antonio.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/18 00:55:13
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 01:44:58
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Ah, so something else is very loose. The article seems confused, or at least confusingly written. Can someone give a summary of the points of argument in it? Both for and against?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/18 01:45:05
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 17:38:19
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Calculating Commissar
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Melissia wrote:Ah, so something else is very loose.
The article seems confused, or at least confusingly written. Can someone give a summary of the points of argument in it? Both for and against?
For:
-Passing C-10 and building more prisons will allow Canada to lock up more criminals and just forget about them.
-Building more prisons takes far less planning and thought than improving the current system.
-Locking up every offender will yield more immediate results in the short-term
Against:
-C-10 Won't work in the long-term, according to Texas, which followed the same plan for many years. The plan was a failure.
-C-10 will cost substantially more than a revision and improvement of the existing system.
-Rehabilitating and offering proper care based on individual cases yields better end results than generalizing a criminal population and just locking them all up.
At least, I think that's what I read in the article. Republican 'Anglush' is usually very poor for some reason.  Still, I think those are the main points
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 20:18:41
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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I get all my Canadian news from Metallifan.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 20:21:01
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Fixture of Dakka
Kamloops, BC
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:I get all my Canadian news from Metallifan. 
Kind of have to considering there aren't many of us Canadians on here, which is probably why Canadian news rarely pops up in the OT zone.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 20:35:45
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Fully-charged Electropriest
Portland, OR by way of WI
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does Canada have private prisons yet? I imagine you do. It is scary, but that is the wave of the future. And once these companies get judges in their pocket very bad things start happening. One story from the US recently had a judge sending kids to a youth prison for minor offense because he was paid thousands of dollars for every kid he sent there.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29142654/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/pa-judges-accused-jailing-kids-cash/
with video
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/22/judge_convicted_in_pennsylvania_kids_for
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3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
RIP Diz, We will never forget ya brother |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 20:56:31
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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I don't think we do to avoid things just like that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 21:44:54
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Yeah, America's youth justice system is pretty fubar.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 22:10:01
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Prisons should not be a for-profit enterprise. The potential for corruption to leech into so many other aspects of the criminal justice system is too dangerous.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 22:14:45
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Oh hell, I wasn't even talking about private prisons. Even without private prisons, it's inefficient and corrupt..
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 22:17:15
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Yes, well ours is MORE inefficient but less corrupt. Not sure which is worse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 22:17:46
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Fixture of Dakka
Kamloops, BC
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Prisons should not be a for-profit enterprise. The potential for corruption to leech into so many other aspects of the criminal justice system is too dangerous.
Prisons are expensive to run so a bit of profiting off of them doesn't seem like too bad of an idea, so long as the money used for keeping the prison running and operating.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/10/18 22:18:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 22:26:48
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Cheesecat wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:Prisons should not be a for-profit enterprise. The potential for corruption to leech into so many other aspects of the criminal justice system is too dangerous.
Prisons are expensive to run so a bit of profiting off of them doesn't seem like too bad of an idea, so long as the money used for keeping the prison running and operating.
Prison's profit still comes from tax money. See DIDM's links for why it's a bad idea.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 23:09:52
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Calculating Commissar
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DIDM wrote:does Canada have private prisons yet?
No. Canada's prison system is federal.
There are private rehabilitation centres that cater to addicts and others arrested for drug use charges. As well, mental health is also largely privatised. There are many hospitals that do still have mental wards, including RIH here in Kamloops, but the Federal gov't has kind of neglected alternative treatment to an embarrassing level over the last 2 decades.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 23:15:26
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Come to Vancouver, you can get a free paid for by goverment crack pipe. Not joking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 23:53:53
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Fixture of Dakka
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Harm reduction has its benefits.
All I can say about the crime bill is you know something's up when the state that has no qualms about executing the mentally slowed tells you your gak is fethed
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Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/18 23:57:28
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Calculating Commissar
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Come to Vancouver, you can get a free paid for by goverment crack pipe. Not joking.
Yea, and legal injection sites for heroin.
Guess it's better than the alternative though...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 05:05:21
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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I guess.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 06:45:43
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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I just love the Conservative party's original excuse for the prison plan. Apparently, having more prisons will help with unreported crime... or something like that.
Great logic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 16:06:48
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Fully-charged Electropriest
Portland, OR by way of WI
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metallifan wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:Come to Vancouver, you can get a free paid for by goverment crack pipe. Not joking.
Yea, and legal injection sites for heroin.
Guess it's better than the alternative though...
sort of off topic, but I was watching a BBC documentary on the areas that surround Afghanistan, they have really high addiction rates to all things in the opiate family. One really scary statistic was at their needle exchange places they regularly get over 50% of their needles positive for HIV/AIDS.
it was shocking to say the least.
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3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
RIP Diz, We will never forget ya brother |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 17:49:34
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Calculating Commissar
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DIDM wrote:sort of off topic, but I was watching a BBC documentary on the areas that surround Afghanistan, they have really high addiction rates to all things in the opiate family. One really scary statistic was at their needle exchange places they regularly get over 50% of their needles positive for HIV/AIDS. it was shocking to say the least. Yea, safe injection sites are there to prevent people from sharing syringes. They don't prevent people with HIV/AIDS from using the sites, they just stop them from spreading it by leaving a used needle on the ground. They provide sterile gloves, rubber bands, syringes, rubbing alcohol, and cotton swabs. Even though I think the money would be better spent on rehabilitation and work/housing programs for ex-addicts, I won't complain about the fact that you hardly see used heroin needles on the sidewalks of Vancouver these days.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/19 17:50:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 17:56:13
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Hm. Idea! Perhaps we can offer companies linceses for Smokatoriums, where people can go and legally smoke pot? The companies would have to make sure the smell and smoke didn't leave the premises, and would have the same liabilities as bars for intoxication. Yes, both off topic AND a Judge Dredd reference.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/19 17:57:05
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 18:03:06
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Calculating Commissar
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Actually (and I'm not being sarcastic here) quite frankly I still think that it would almost be better to simply legalize it, give it the same locational regulations as cigarettes (No smoking within X metres of a building or pedestrian route) and the same consumption regulations as alcohol, and just put it on smoke shelves and pipe shops. But that would be common sense, and we all know Governments operate with a strict 'head-up-arse' strategy
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 18:10:57
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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There is at least one similar place I have been told about in Toronto. It operates as a 'private club' and is able to get around a lot of laws that way. I'm not really law savvy so I'm not sure how it really works.
On topic, I don't think more prisons are really gonna do much except cost more money.
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nosferatu1001 wrote:That guy got *really* instantly killed. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 18:12:46
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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metallifan wrote:Actually (and I'm not being sarcastic here) quite frankly I still think that it would almost be better to simply legalize it, give it the same locational regulations as cigarettes (No smoking within X metres of a building or pedestrian route) and the same consumption regulations as alcohol, and just put it on smoke shelves and pipe shops. But that would be common sense, and we all know Governments operate with a strict 'head-up-arse' strategy 
Yeah, that's why this is a sort of compromise, similar to bars are a compromise for drinkers as well as a place where drinkers can get together.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 18:54:08
Subject: Re:Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Fully-charged Electropriest
Portland, OR by way of WI
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the city of Portland, or Potland as it is referred to is one large smokatorium. One thing the city does right is leave pot smokers alone, growers too. The power company used to inform the police when there was unusually large amounts of power being used, but then one of their execs said, "You are taking away our money by turning our customers in!" That and medical laws passed and that was it. No one cares here, we have meth, heroine and other bad things to deal with.
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3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
RIP Diz, We will never forget ya brother |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 19:30:44
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Melissia wrote:Hm. Idea!
Perhaps we can offer companies linceses for Smokatoriums, where people can go and legally smoke pot?
We already have that: It's called "Vancouver"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/10/19 22:49:06
Subject: Texas to Harper: C-10 won't work
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Building a blood in water scent
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Melissia wrote:Hm. Idea!
Perhaps we can offer companies linceses for Smokatoriums, where people can go and legally smoke pot?
We already have that: It's called "British Columbia"
Fixed that for you.
When I was a young punk we would sit on the steps of City Hall and smoke up right in the middle of the afternoon. Cops didn't care about some giggling kids with stupid haircuts.
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We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” |
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