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Leman Russ

WS - 10
BS - 6
S - 6
T - 5
W - 5
I - 7
A - 5
Ld - 10
Sv - 2+

Composition: 1 (unique)

Unit type: Infantry

Wargear:
Wolf helm of Russ - All units that try to assault Leman Russ must take a morale test. Furthermore, Leman Russ and any squad he is with gains Furious Charge and Fearless universal special rules
Spear of Russ - Force weapon that re-rolls fail to hit and wound rolls. Furthermore, any rolls of a 6 to wound inflicts instant death, regardless of opponents toughness.
Armour of the Wolf Spirit - Grants Leman Russ a 2+ Armour save and 3+ Invulnerable Save.
Thunder bolter - Range: 36" Strength: 5 AP: 2 Type: Assault D3, Rending

Special Rules:
Acute Senses
Fury unmatched - On the charge, Leman Russ gains D3 attacks instead of the usual 1
ATSKNF
Counter-Attack
Living legend - Any unit may use his leadership to test morale

I agree with the statline besides the WS and I (I think they should be 9 and 6 respectively.)

For your wolfhelm, you've forgotten to say what happens if said unit fails their morale test.

Spear of Russ should not be a force weapon: Space Wolves abhor psykers.

Just make the Thunder Bolter assualt 3?

Iranna.

You also seem to be forgetting that Russ didn't even like the Spear and regularly forgot to bring it to battles.

You've also forgotten that a Long Fang gun line won't be charging much.... lol

KoganStyle wrote:You've also forgotten that a Long Fang gun line won't be charging much.... lol

lol

I would drop his WS to 8, Add Independent Character and take away the force weapon, and maybe the spear.

If I remember correctly there were some in store rules for some of the Primarchs, including Russ were published to be use in a small set of games stores, several years ago. I still have the sheet here. So that's not too far off. Recommendations?:

Profile
Not that I mind but some will find WS10 debatable. The rest seems perfect to me.

Psychic Powers
Have to disagree with others. Isn't he described as having some kind of 'Psychic Howl' ability?

Special Rules
You may want to change Living Legend so it doesn't get confused with Logan Grimnar's rule of the same name.

Wargear
As Iranna suggests - get rid of the spear. Replace it with 'Mjalnir' (see above link) but the rules should make it a force weapon with +1S instead.
Wolf Helm of Russ - I'm stickler for consistency. Make it the same as Ulrik's.

I'd ditch the Force Weapon aspect, Russ wasn't a psyker.

Other than that, looks about what it should to me. WS10 and I7 on a Primarch aren't objectionable.

Space Wolves abhor psykers.

One might think that...but somehow they also have the best psykers in the game

You've also forgotten that a Long Fang gun line won't be charging much.... lol

So true....

lol force weapons on a space wolf

Generalian wrote:

lol force weapons on a space wolf

lol dude in the middle is a Rune Priest. He know!!!!

He definitely had some kind of psychic ability. He most likely did not wield anything like a force weapon though.

Also, he once destroyed a Titan with his hands (well, he pushed it over, and the story didn't mention what kind of titan). This guy doesn't appear capable of that with only 6+d6 penetration.

Meh, all these trying to make a primarch threads are just weird...

For some reason everybody thinks that the primarchs need to be ws10, and have 6s and 5s in all of their stats.

Give him the same weapon skill as an Archon or Succubus. No Space Marine should have equal weapon skill to an Avatar or Blood Thirster, at best I could see him being even with a Dark Eldar Succubus. Ws8 is fine...

Initiative 7? really?? I know Mephiston has Initiative 7, but Mephiston is worse than a lot of fan made Mary Sue characters already. He can have initiative 6. Captain Speed +1 seems like a very reasonable expectation for a Primarch

I'd also bump him down to 4 wounds. For reference, most human sized characters have 3. Huge Monstrous Creatures tend to have more- see Tyranids (usually 6) or the Avatar (4). Leman Russ is still a man. A very mighty and super genetically engineered man, and the son of the Emperor, but still a man. 4 wounds is still a lot anyway. Also Mephiston is a terrible example... once again...

Most of the wargear looks fine

Except as has been stated, the Spear of Russ. That weapon is a tad too ridiculous. Tone it down a bit, just change it to a weapon that gives +1 Strength and counts as a hit from an Monstrous Creature. That gives him s7 + 2d6 armor penetration on the charge. Seems reasonable.

Leon wrote:Leman Russ

WS - 10
BS - 6
S - 6
T - 5
W - 5
I - 7
A - 5
Ld - 10
Sv - 2+

Composition: 1 (unique)

Unit type: Infantry

Wargear:
Wolf helm of Russ - All units that try to assault Leman Russ must take a morale test. Furthermore, Leman Russ and any squad he is with gains Furious Charge and Fearless universal special rules
Spear of Russ - Force weapon that re-rolls fail to hit and wound rolls. Furthermore, any rolls of a 6 to wound inflicts instant death, regardless of opponents toughness.
Armour of the Wolf Spirit - Grants Leman Russ a 2+ Armour save and 3+ Invulnerable Save.
Thunder bolter - Range: 36" Strength: 5 AP: 2 Type: Assault D3, Rending

Special Rules:
Acute Senses
Fury unmatched - On the charge, Leman Russ gains D3 attacks instead of the usual 1
ATSKNF
Counter-Attack
Living legend - Any unit may use his leadership to test morale

I'd say bring his WS down to 8, his Wounds down to 3 (there are other ways to make him more survivable, see later), and his Initiative down to 6. Doesn't seem like he'd be the type to train extensively in ranged combat either so I'd bring his BS down to 5.

Give him Eternal Warrior and allow him to make both armour saves AND invulnerable saves against wounds he recieves. That should make him much more survivable without simply just slapping on other wounds (anything above 3 wounds tends to be inhuman).

I'd say the Wolf Helm of Russ should use the same special rules as Ulrik.

Reduce his Invulnerable save to 4+. With the ability to allow him to take a 2+ amour save in addition to a 4+ invulnerable save makes him much more survivable, there is no need for a 2+ save followed by a 3+ save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

akaean wrote:Meh, all these trying to make a primarch threads are just weird...

For some reason everybody thinks that the primarchs need to be ws10, and have 6s and 5s in all of their stats.

Give him the same weapon skill as an Archon or Succubus. No Space Marine should have equal weapon skill to an Avatar or Blood Thirster, at best I could see him being even with a Dark Eldar Succubus. Ws8 is fine...

Initiative 7? really?? I know Mephiston has Initiative 7, but Mephiston is worse than a lot of fan made Mary Sue characters already. He can have initiative 6. Captain Speed +1 seems like a very reasonable expectation for a Primarch

I'd also bump him down to 4 wounds. For reference, most human sized characters have 3. Huge Monstrous Creatures tend to have more- see Tyranids (usually 6) or the Avatar (4). Leman Russ is still a man. A very mighty and super genetically engineered man, and the son of the Emperor, but still a man. 4 wounds is still a lot anyway. Also Mephiston is a terrible example... once again...

Most of the wargear looks fine

Except as has been stated, the Spear of Russ. That weapon is a tad too ridiculous. Tone it down a bit, just change it to a weapon that gives +1 Strength and counts as a hit from an Monstrous Creature. That gives him s7 + 2d6 armor penetration on the charge. Seems reasonable.

I've always found a good reference point for the power/statline of a Primarch is the Sanguinor, as he could very well be an echo of Sanguinius and, thus, could accurately reflect his skills.

Marik Law wrote: slapping on other wounds (anything above 3 wounds tends to be inhuman).

Inhuman like a Primarch, or inhuman like many Chapter Masters?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Marik Law wrote: slapping on other wounds (anything above 3 wounds tends to be inhuman).

Inhuman like a Primarch, or inhuman like many Chapter Masters?

Point. But I'd say no more than 4, as 5 is a bit ridiculous on something that isn't a Daemon or a Monstrous Creature.

You guys realise that ws/bs/ what ever should be 6. Their the emperor damn's primarchs. They where created with intent to be beasts. The fact most of you guys are over looking yes most should start at 6 all stats. Mangus the red downed a eldar revent class titant by himself.......and about the primarchs not be as bad as demons remeber that cheerful tale of when sanggy broke the bloodthrister's back over his knee.....HE FREAKING KNEE...... but butthurts will be butthurts.... so i pulled this from another post about proposed rules about magnus.....see if you can wrap you head around this.
Now lets make something for a huge cut in pts using dark eldar;
Archon............................165PTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ws7bs7s3t3w3i7a4ld10sv4+/6+
unit type: infantry
wargear:huskblade,ghostplate armour,combat drugs,soul-trap,djin blade,clone field. and a webway for a total of 200pts
special rules;fleet,night vision, power from pain, Independent character.
Huskblade-unsaved wound = instant death.
Ghostplate:gives SV 4+/6+
combat drugs; nice bag of tricks.
soul-trap; doubles str each unit killed.
Djin Blade; +2 attack's.
Clone field: creates images of one's self. add 3 more wounds.

So lets recap...Archon is 6wounds, 6 possiable str6-10 attacks that instant kill. plus combat drugs giving all kinds of nasty stuff. combat drugs-rolled a 2,4,5 or a 6 and your gold.



Archon are kinda the run of the mill kinda guys. but i can make a non-demon/MC guy a nasty threat with this.

The rules of daemons have been brought down alot to balance the game and people keep trying to make primarch rules based on daemons.

In a one on one fight a primarch would beat any daemon short of a daemon lord (anggrath etc) and if your making a daemon primarch then put plus 2 stats on everything.

akaean wrote:Meh, all these trying to make a primarch threads are just weird...

For some reason everybody thinks that the primarchs need to be ws10, and have 6s and 5s in all of their stats.

Give him the same weapon skill as an Archon or Succubus. No Space Marine should have equal weapon skill to an Avatar or Blood Thirster, at best I could see him being even with a Dark Eldar Succubus. Ws8 is fine...

Initiative 7? really?? I know Mephiston has Initiative 7, but Mephiston is worse than a lot of fan made Mary Sue characters already. He can have initiative 6. Captain Speed +1 seems like a very reasonable expectation for a Primarch

I'd also bump him down to 4 wounds. For reference, most human sized characters have 3. Huge Monstrous Creatures tend to have more- see Tyranids (usually 6) or the Avatar (4). Leman Russ is still a man. A very mighty and super genetically engineered man, and the son of the Emperor, but still a man. 4 wounds is still a lot anyway. Also Mephiston is a terrible example... once again...

Most of the wargear looks fine

Except as has been stated, the Spear of Russ. That weapon is a tad too ridiculous. Tone it down a bit, just change it to a weapon that gives +1 Strength and counts as a hit from an Monstrous Creature. That gives him s7 + 2d6 armor penetration on the charge. Seems reasonable.

I agree that some of these Primarchs can seem overblown and ridiculous. But the fact is that anything less isn't really representative of what we know from the fluff. Primarchs are basically written as an SM GD/MC. Sometimes they even take on daemonic MCs and are able to win. For example, with Aurellian being release it'll be the second time an Eldar Avatar has been pounded by a Primarch. So it doesn't do them justice to treat them as lesser beings . Such a character would be very unbalanced to have in an SM codex. Even supposed Primarch wannabe Mephiston requires non-IC status and is a few USRs short of what many would like to see. However, fans love the Primarchs and keep on wanting to make them. It seems futile and over-bearing to stop it.

If you are creating the greatest Primarch, no stat should be below 7...

and a 2++ save

Greyish wrote:

Psychic Powers
Have to disagree with others. Isn't he described as having some kind of 'Psychic Howl' ability?

In Thousand Sons, his howl wrecks psykers real bad, I figure make it a psychic spell which makes everyone suffer a perils attack? Because his howl kills off half the Athanean cult (I mispelled I think, the ones who can read minds), so if it makes people suffer a perils of the warp attack, I think that'd be pretty fluffy. Maybe instead of a Perils, maybe a -X to enemy LD across the board, or both, since he is a mother f-ing PRIMARCH!

I don't even like wolves and I'm actually thinking he should have both...

I like the first idea of causing 'Perils of the Warp'. As long as it's within a limited radius and either requires some sort of fair character test or can only be used once per game.

AvatarForm wrote:If you are creating the greatest Primarch, no stat should be below 7...

That's another extreme I guess. Who's the greatest Primarch though?

Personally, the profile I'd go with for a default setting Primarch would be this:

WS:7-10|BS:6^|S:6|T:6|W:5|I:6|A:5|Ld:10

Depending on the Primarch you could +1 or -1 to some of those integers. For example Daemon Primarchs could gain +1S to account for their new, daemonic stature.

Greyish wrote: Primarchs are basically written as an SM GD/MC. Sometimes they even take on daemonic MCs and are able to win. For example, with Aurellian being release it'll be the second time an Eldar Avatar has been pounded by a Primarch. So it doesn't do them justice to treat them as lesser beings . Such a character would be very unbalanced to have in an SM codex.

Ok, here me out. Avatars and Generic Daemons really aren't *that* hard to kill. Marneus Calgar fisted an Avatar with the help of his Honor Guard. I remember reading a while back that every new marine army needs to up itself in numbers of Avatar's crumped.

To beat an Avatar or Blood Thirster in Combat you don't necessarily need to be a higher weapon skill. Its one of the factors but not the only one. Training (such as grey knight anti daemon tactics) or equipment (see GKs again) can go a long way to evening the tide. Honestly, the only Monsterous Creature left that seems nearly unstoppable in close combat is the Swarm Lord, and to be honest if the Swarm Lord were to square off in one on one combat with one of the non daemon primarchs, my money would be on Swarmy.

I would argue that Karandaras or Jain Zar would also, by fluff, be more then capable of downing a Greater Daemon or an Avatar in single combat in the right circumstances.

Basically, what I'm saying is that you don't need god stats to have your favorite primarch more than capable of handling the big nasties. Primarch being able to defeat Avatar or Thirster in close combat =/= being able to wipe his bum with one in cc every turn. It should be a big epic duel, for both practical and thematic reasons. Everything is toned down in the table top...

To conclude- a Primarch should be to a Chapter Master what a Pheonix Lord is to an Autarch.

I hope that sounds reasonable .

just a thought a Avatar and deamon are both shadows of there god's Primarch are more high end clone of there god <aka Empra> they should be STRONG!!!!!

AvatarForm wrote:If you are creating the greatest Primarch, no stat should be below 7...

and a 2++ save

Any Primarchs that are not Daemonic or SPECIFICALLY KNOWN FOR BEING TOUGH (Ferrus Manus) Should Be t5, but should have Eternal warrior, The most TALENTED IN CC Primarchs COULD have WS 9-10, But russ is known more for his beastly strength, he is also known for being tough, CC Primarch, and also, the softest primarchs, though skilled (Kurze, and Girlyman should have 4 wounds minimum, and the largest and toughest have 6.

So Russ, being a CC Monster but not focused on swordplay like Sangy or the Lion Should be WS 8

He is tough, but not the most resilient, so he should be T6, and S6 or 7, and 5 which pushes the limit for humans, even space marines.

He is fairly fast, so 5-6 attacks and I6 should be good, He is still not an Eldar, so the fastest DE should be faster, It is kinda the point. Also he is wearing a large amount of armour.

He should have Acute Senses, Fearless, Furious Charge, Counter Attack, Preferred Enemy, Eternal Warrior and roll 2d6 for Armour Penetration. This could all be combined in a special rule called "Primarch"

So his statline should be something like this

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
8 6 6 6 5 6 5 10 2+ 4++

Because he is not known for something that really protects them, a 4++ should be fine, What makes the Primarch Special, is the SPECIAL RULES, his abilities are what make him a great leader, and he should not be invincible, many of them are dead.

Lord Magnus wrote:he should not be invincible, many of them are dead.

Oh, they aren't invincible, but let's remember there are no known cases of a Primarch being unwillingly killed by anything except another Primarch or the Emperor.

Rules fot thw wolves that accompanied him, maybe?

akaean wrote:Ok, here me out...

Have done. Many of your points are agreeable in a certain light, especially when considered from the point of the view that the 'fluff should serve the game' and not the other way round. But the reason why fans create a Primarch in the first place is because it's inspired by the fluff. Seeming as this exercise is purely for fun and casual scenarios then it doesn't really matter too much whether it's precisely balanced as long as all participating parties are aware of the rules and in agree on its use.

akaean wrote:Avatars and Generic Daemons really aren't *that* hard to kill. Marneus Calgar fisted an Avatar with the help of his Honor Guard. I remember reading a while back that every new marine army needs to up itself in numbers of Avatar's crumped.

Let's not forget Calgar has tricks that can help him topple such foes. His gauntlets (S8) will even make mincemeat out big creatures like an Avatar (T6) and there are many other heroes (imo) capable of doing a similar job. But how many of them can pick a Greater Daemon up without the help of a weapon and break it's back on their knee? Or strangle it with their hands alone? Mephiston? Oh, hang on...

akaean wrote:To beat an Avatar or Blood Thirster in Combat you don't necessarily need to be a higher weapon skill. Its one of the factors but not the only one. Training (such as grey knight anti daemon tactics) or equipment (see GKs again) can go a long way to evening the tide. Honestly, the only Monsterous Creature left that seems nearly unstoppable in close combat is the Swarm Lord, and to be honest if the Swarm Lord were to square off in one on one combat with one of the non daemon primarchs, my money would be on Swarmy.

True again I suppose. As someone was telling me on this board only yesterday, 'melee winning ability in total is measured on several of the profile's characteristics'. A C'Tan certainly isn't considered highly skilled and yet no-one would put bets against them in a duel with most greater daemons, part in thanks to its superb S/T/W/A.

akaean wrote:I would argue that Karandaras or Jain Zar would also, by fluff, be more then capable of downing a Greater Daemon or an Avatar in single combat in the right circumstances.

Yet again, it wouldn't be based on their profile characteristics alone. Like Calgar, it would be based on other traits like experience and equipment mainly.

akaean wrote:Basically, what I'm saying is that you don't need god stats to have your favorite primarch more than capable of handling the big nasties. Primarch being able to defeat Avatar or Thirster in close combat =/= being able to wipe his bum with one in cc every turn. It should be a big epic duel, for both practical and thematic reasons. Everything is toned down in the table top...

You definitely don't need to give them god-like stats if you don't care for comparable accuracy and just want a well-balanced game. But it really sells them short based on their recent depictions. And when you scale things down it's only fair to retain some sense of equal treatment in doing so. As stupid as it sounds to the uninitiated Primarchs supposedly are capable of giving and taking punches like your average monstrous creature. They're just canned into a 10-foot husk rather than something 25ft tall.

Personally, I think you're digging at the wrong part of the equation. The failure in most would-be designers is that they give them unnecessary wargear to go with the large profile. A simple master-crafted power-weapon of sorts would do the trick in most cases. Mephiston (who some fans say is the of embodiment of Sanguinius physical being) is probably a good example of how to build a character with a powerful profile yet maintain a balance. People using him as a basic setting for Primarchs would be on the right path imo: Basic weapons, a small handful of unique abilities/USRs/powers and huge chuck of your points. Talking to a guy on B&C, a local shops close to him ran an ongoing scenario using similar rules for various Primarchs. It went down a treat apparently. I managed to get a copy of the rules here. It's quite old (3E - when SM commanders had a lower WS than 5E) but the rules work on a very similar concept to the one I'm suggesting.

akaean wrote: No Space Marine should have equal weapon skill to an Avatar or Blood Thirster

Here's the issue you're running into here. A Primarch is not a Space Marine. A Primarch is, at the least, the equal of an avatar or a Blood Thirster, if not more. Sanguinius defeated multiple bloodthirsters in defense of the Emperor's Palace.