Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lots of people think Brets need a foot-knight unit, but that it takes away from the "theme" of the army. So I got to thinking, what happens to the wives of all these knights who seem to die in droves? My proposal is that they take up their husband's arms and band together with other widows to defend their homes. You could probably add in the fluff that they are actually the ones that coordinate much of the defense of the kingdom, since the men only think of attacking...

I'd give them regular human stats, but L8 and hatred (since they are angry at the people who killed their menfolk). I'd also say that they're especially blessed of the lady so they always get the 5+ ward. Units of knights within 12 inches would be stubborn (since who wants to run in front of you're old buddy's wife).

As for equipment, I'd give them heavy armour and a greatsword (surely most of the "widows" have to be QK widows, no? So they just get a spare greatsword that their hubby left around).

At 11 pts each, I think they'd be competitively priced. (maybe 12?)

If you wanted to, you could also have different levels of widows --

"Errant" widows could have frenzy, hw/shield
Realm widows could have hatred, L8
Questing widows could have hatred, GWs, re-roll panic
and Grail Widows could have hatred, and magical attacks

Thoughts?

Sounds good, but I would give the a WS on par with chaos warriors.

DukeBadham wrote:Sounds good, but I would give the a WS on par with chaos warriors.

That wouldn't really make sense, the widows of knights are better fighters than the knights themselves?

That is pretty funny. Look the women fight better than the men

Krellnus wrote:

DukeBadham wrote:Sounds good, but I would give the a WS on par with chaos warriors.

That wouldn't really make sense, the widows of knights are better fighters than the knights themselves?

Hey, when the woman is filled with nothing but hate and need to fight, and stops caring about other people views, then they can become better then the knights, who only spend half their time training, and the other half worrying about looks.

I think i'd rather have the lower weapon skill and hatred (or hatred and frenzy). It's fluffier (I think). Or you could do different orders of the "sisterhood" or "daughterhood" -- and some could be better WS than others?

I don't know the Bret book, but widows with GW seems kind of silly to me. And heavy armor + 5+ ward is better than a Daemon at a cheaper cost.

The question, as always, is what is the army book missing and what is the theme? They are obviously a cavalry book, giving them elite infantry that can hold its own against the best elite infantry races in the game...probably isn't going to fly. Kind of like giving other races core cavalry that beats the snot out of Brets or what have you.

I could see widows being a Rare like Flaggalants in Empire. Instead of the offense bonuses of Flags, give them defense bonuses and like HW + Shield.

But there's simply not going to be that many of them. Maybe units size of 1-10. And they sure as hell aren't going to be elite infantry. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The thing is though, are they really supposed to be better fighters (I'm talking stat-line-wise) than men at arms? Essentially that's all they are going to be, except with hatred and/or frenzy. I don't think so. the wives of noble men (knights) are gonna be little frail hotties or gluttonous fatties. not elite warriors.


If you want fluffy elite infantry. make some sort of fluff for shamed/demoted knights or some sort of knights on probation. ones that have had their horses taken from them as some sort of punishment, and the only way to earn back their former status is through glory on the battlefield. This imo is much more appropriate

I see what you guys are saying, but I'm not sure they'd be that elite. -- they're still WS3, T3 (and i was thinking 11 pts with hatred; 12 or 13 if they also had frenzy).

I'd say WS3 represents the fact that they're not malnourished (even damsels have WS3). And then the "elite"-ness of having greatweapons and HA could come from the fact that they gather in convents that occasionally have to defend themselves. And at 11 points a piece, they're more expensive than other human elite fighters (and less punchy). You could have a unit of 22 peasants for the cost of 10, so it would be a trade-off

I was also thinking they should be special, so you're not filling core points with them.

What if they just had the same blessing as all the other Brets -- so they were 11pts with 5+/6++ (and maybe 5++ against S5 or better?)

I really think that if they were 11 pts for that, I might not take them (and maybe that's the "fair" point for them)?

I'm not a fantasy war fighter. So take that into consideration. I'm just a normal guy.

But if you give nearly any woman on earth a 20 lb great weapon and turn her loose against me, I'm going to beat the crap out of her. Because it's going to be too cumbersome to use effectively. And then when you stick her in plate mail it starts getting absurd. I could be typing this thread and still beat off a dozen because it would take them that long to get to me and swing.

5+ /5+ saves are elite. No matter what else they got, that's elite. Again, it's better than anvil Daemons for less points. And then you're giving them a bunch of other stuff.

FLAGELLANTS:
WS:2
S:3
T:3

No armor, no ward, Rare, Flail. Frenzy. Unbreak. A few stacking bonuses as some die.

TEN POINTS EACH.

Your trophy wives of doom would beat the living crap out of those guys without breaking a sweat.

You've made elite infantry. They should tell their sissy husbands to stay at home and knit them a sweater so they can go crack some skulls with their 20lb claymores.

You have a good point -- if I argue that bloodletters are undercosted, I probably shouldn't be basing point costs off them
But, battle pilgrims are WS2, S3, T3 with hatred and stubborn and a 5+/6++ for nine points each and I don't think very many players take them. Bloodletters have higher weapon skill, strike at I order, never break from combat and are CORE.

edit after thinking about it some more:

Basic fluff justification would be this:

Your local KotR decides to leave on a Grail Quest. Being a misogynistic person, he leaves the castle to his nearest male errant knight relative, and all of a sudden his wife is left with nothing but a lance and whatever rusty suit of armour he didn't take. This could also happen when your husband (errant/KotR or otherwise) is killed in battle.

These wives take the lances and armour and head off to the nearest convent of the lady. It is these convents that arrange for the actual defense of the towns and villages when all the men (and men-at-arms) are off on crusades/killing dragons/etc. Over time, they grow more confident, make or buy better armour and weapons, but they also lose their raw anger.

This gives us two new units to add to the bret list that are fluffy, but dif't from what other armies have:

BOTH units give stubborn to models with knights vows within 6 inches (the knight's can't run with women watching)

Special: Novices

M4, WS2, BS2, S3, T3, I3, W1, L7
Light Armour, Lance (counts as spear), hatred, special blessing of the lady (5++). 8pts each.

Special (rare?): Sisters
M4, WS3, BS3, S3, T3, I3, W1, L8
Heavy armour, flails, special blessing of the lady (5++), 11 pts each.

Thoughts?

Bloodletters and such are the CORE of that DoC book. It is their best stuff. You can't build a MI that is as good as an Ogre and have it be some throwaway addition to another army. You can't build archers as good as HE. You can't build war machines as good as Dwarfs. That's THEIR mojo.

You don't look at the defining characteristics of any other Army book. If we gave every army book Trebuchets Bret players wouldn't be too happy about it.

Bloodletters and such are the CORE of that DoC book. It is their best stuff. You can't build a MI that is as good as an Ogre and have it be some throwaway addition to another army. You can't build archers as good as HE. You can't build war machines as good as Dwarfs. That's THEIR mojo.

I know and agree -- but just because bloodletters are fast and fighty, GW didn't release warriors of chaos without anything fast and fighty in core, or beastmen, or even dwarfs (if you think of it as something tough that hits hard).

I'm not talking about making these core units, I'm suggesting they be special units. And I certainly don't think they're the equiv of bloodletters (or WOC). i think they would be fluffy and thematic with a bret army, and they certainly wouldn't take away from the cav emphasis -- they'd just add a unit to the book that wasn't just "cav with x weapon or better attacks".

As for the ward -- phoenix guard are special with a 4+ ward (and various other good rules), and no-one complains that they're stealing DoC's thing?

EDIT:

Actually, in the spirit of productivity, is there a point value you think they'd be worth (13? 14?)? or are you suggesting that they're not worth doing at all?

regardless of points you're not making a statistically legitimate unit for what is essentially, angry emotional mourning widows

if you want elite infantry, and be able to justify being competant combatants, go with the idea of shamed knights, no angry housewives.

^ I agree with Marlo.

But I also think, and again, I don't know Bret book well, that they aren't infantry gods. Any infantry you supply them should be somewhat inferior in cost efficiency than those races that are infantry hotshots, like WoC and DoC.

I already pointed out Flaggelants, and yes, I'm going to spell it differently each time.

teddet wrote:
BOTH units give stubborn to models with knights vows within 6 inches (the knight's can't run with women watching)

Special: Novices

M4, WS2, BS2, S3, T3, I3, W1, L7
Light Armour, Lance (counts as spear), hatred, special blessing of the lady (5++). 8pts each.

Special (rare?): Sisters
M4, WS3, BS3, S3, T3, I3, W1, L8
Heavy armour, flails, special blessing of the lady (5++), 11 pts each.

I do think both of these units are priced much higher than comparable units in infantry focused books - compare deamonettes, blood letters, grave guard, tomb guard, marauders, woc - all these are better deals I think.

As for statistically legit, I'm not sure how to respond. The only female human unit in the game I can think of is damsels, and they have ws 3. Elves all have female models with the same stats as males. So I don't think that ws2 or ws3 is crazy. It's a game of abstractions at a certain level.

But, if they were disgraced knights with those stats, what points would you charge?

yes but they weren't trained warriors. they are angry widows.

and in regards to the knights.
I dunno, somewhere in the realm of 11-13 points

The question is what are you trying to do? Most stuff in the army books has a logical reason it's there and then they fill in the fluff. Are you making a fodder infantry? A hammer, anvil, what?

If you're approaching from fluff first, that's not good. Approach from game balance and what Brets are missing. If they need fodder, make them peasants. It might not be as cool as a grannie swinging a 2h hammer, but if the army book doesn't need it, there's no point.

^^ good point.

And in terms of a stubborn angry infantry. they already have that, the Grail Relique. a bunch of angry sad dudes carrying a coffin. it's just super expensive points wise. in a new book i'm sure they'll just be modified to be more useful.

I disagree with a tactics-first approach to unit invention. Fluff-first is just as valid an approach to imaginary units. Proposed Rules isn't just where people take their "wouldn't THIS new unit fill the gap in what this army is missing?". It probably would, since every army book has weaknesses and any player who consistently uses them will lament the weakness and imagine ways to shore it up. imo, anyway.

My 2 cents on the daughters - make them rare. Fluff-wise, it makes sense that any woman who can don a suit of armor and charge into battle would be a rarity in Bretonnia. Up their cost and give them hatred and frenzy, and ditch the GW in exhcange for AHW or HW+Sh or maybe even flails.

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:Fluff-first is just as valid an approach to imaginary units.

Write a short story or novel. Balance is irrelevant then.

But this is still a combat game. Daemons could have a Soul Snorter unit that rips apart the souls of any living unit, represented by a Heroic Killing Blow on a 2+.

But that would stupid overpowered, fluff or not.

2+ opponents face off with the same point totals and random terrain and all sorts of rules designed to make a balanced, entertaining game. The fluff is simply an extension of that. The fluff is constantly rewritten (with whole tracts of it entirely removed) to suit the new game units. Someone said, "Hey, Ogres need some cannons," and what was some some minor entry in previous books became the basis for giant cannons.

You're right - fluff is rewritten almost as often as rules and stat lines! Forgive us if don't conform to the static confines of your stale imagination. We must have been tricked by the word "FANTASY".

Geez dude, lighten up, use your imagination, open your mind, and get over yourself.

DukeRustfield wrote:Write a short story or novel. Balance is irrelevant then.

But this is still a combat game. Daemons could have a Soul Snorter unit that rips apart the souls of any living unit, represented by a Heroic Killing Blow on a 2+.

But that would stupid overpowered, fluff or not.

Fluff first doesn't mean 'consider fluff and only fluff', I don't know where you got that from. It means come up with a cool idea and then write a balanced unit that fits within the existing army.

And yes, fluff is rewritten, often to suit new army design, and often just because they've thought of new fluff they like more than the old fluff.

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:We must have been tricked by the word "FANTASY".

Fantasy BATTLES, actually. From GAMES workshop. In the proposed RULES forum. This may be the place to write what you want:

Dakka Fiction
This section is for fiction (aka Fluff) about battles, army backgrounds, short stories, etc.

sebster wrote:I don't know where you got that from.

That's cool, because I have no idea why you're responding. This may be the place to write what you want:

Off-Topic Forum
Go wild with non-miniature games discussions. However, all (non-OT) forum rules do still apply.

DukeRustfield wrote:That's cool, because I have no idea why you're responding. This may be the place to write what you want:

Off-Topic Forum
Go wild with non-miniature games discussions. However, all (non-OT) forum rules do still apply.

I'm responding because an issue about unit design was raised in forum about rules proposal, and I thought you gave a mistaken answer. Glad we got that cleared up.

Now, to go back to the issue at hand, it was mentioned that the creation of a new unit could begin with a fluff idea. You decided this meant that fluff and only would be considered, with no regard to game balance or tactical balance. I was just pointing out that just because an idea started with the fluff first, doesn't mean you can't consider those other options afterwards.

Sebster, thanks for the input.

I didn't think about making them rare, but what about leaving the low level "spear" ones as special (since there'd be lots of angry widows), and boosting up the high level ones -- frenzy and hatred, higher weapon skill, flails, and making them rare? The special ones could have the "regular" Bret ward, and the rare ones could have always 5+. Then you have the fluff justification that only the best widows survive and become extra blessed by the lady?

teddet wrote:Sebster, thanks for the input.

I didn't think about making them rare, but what about leaving the low level "spear" ones as special (since there'd be lots of angry widows), and boosting up the high level ones -- frenzy and hatred, higher weapon skill, flails, and making them rare? The special ones could have the "regular" Bret ward, and the rare ones could have always 5+. Then you have the fluff justification that only the best widows survive and become extra blessed by the lady?

I tried to respond a couple of times to the original idea, but when I started I kept going from the core ideas about fanaticism and modest levels of training, and pretty much ended up with flagellants. But once you rule out weapons that you untrained widows are unlikely to see, like great weapons and halberds, you're basically left with flails and spears. I kept siding towards the flails, ending up with a Bretonnians saying 'look, we've also got flagellants', deciding that was naff and deleting my posts.

But, thinking about it, I'm coming to like the idea of giving them spears and a good ward save more and more. They could be unbreakable, to represent their commitment to die and join their husbands, which would immediately compare them to trollslayers and flagellants, but unlike those two units they wouldn't be aggressive, glass hammer units. I wouldn't give them shields, either, so they'd have no save, just that 5+ ward save representing their devotion. With just spears and modest WS they'd be pretty modest on the attack as well, and wouldn't really grind through too many enemy troops. Instead, I'd see them as a classic tarpit, or as a counter to the glass hammers of other armies.

And yeah, they should definitely be rare, else they'd replace regular Bretonian infantry entirely. Well, probably, that's something that'd probably be have to be sorted out in play.

Maybe 8 or 9 points a piece?

This sounds like onna bushi.

Also, I wouldn't call them daughters of the lady, because those are damsels.