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So I got the codex, hurray me. So Im basically throwing together ideas/lists on what I would get from buying 1 battlefore, 2 battle forces and so on, just to see where I would be at. Basically I quickly realized that Im just going with Vets in chimeras, as I can use the guardsmen in those battle sets as a full squad of vets, with what ever SW I give them, and a heavy weapon in a chimera. Biggest bang for my buck I guess. So really, I have questions now that I need answered, some will probably be super easy WTF questions, but Im an Ork, Imperials are a strange breed to me. Here they go, infact heres a list I banged up just now along with them, also I was adding the most pricey upgrades to see just where I would sit points wise.

List

CCS
plasma pistol/PW on commander
regimental standard
vox caster
plasma guns x2
chimera

Vet Squad #1
PW/plasma pistol sgt.
vox caster
plasma gun x3
lascannon
chimera

Vet Squad #2
Same setup

Then the sentinels would depend on if I went with scout or armored, so the points varied a bit. Scouts I decided Id run them stock but with lascannons, armored I decided stock w/plasma cannons.

Anywho, besides that (obviously any ideas on changing the composition around in the list would be appriciated) my questions are as follows


Is Carapace/vox caster/regimental standard worth their points? Vox casters seems like a good buy, just to make sure those orders go through, but what of the others

Just a quick DURP moment here but, in the CCS, does the carapace/frag/camo cloaks upgrade happen to the entire squad for the points listed? Im guessing yes, simply because 5pts per frag would be crazy pricey, and 20pts for carapace each mini would be really REALLY high, so Im thinking yes, but just want confirmation.

Is PW/PP worth their points on a Sgt. in a Chimera? I know they are important in power blobs, but Im not running blobs, Im running mech shooty power.

What heavy weapon is best used in a chimera? I put the lascannon in there for 2 reasons. 1) I dont have any AT in this build so a lascannon w/BS4 is a sound idea 2) again, I did it as it was the most expensive upgrade, and again to see where I was sitting points wise, as if I know the max pts I can make, I know what points game I can sit in at.

And lastly, are Vet doctrines any use? Im thinking maybe the one with the melta bombs, but I dunno, they seem a bit pricey.



Ok thats it for right now folks, thanks in advance for the advice and answers.

Yes, carapace/frag/camo go to everyone, even advisors
I thought you could only give orders OUT of a chimera, meaning that the vets cannot recieve them as they are embarked? I don't have my dex in front of me though, but thats something I'm pretty sure of.

I'd say drop the vox, PW and Plasma on vet squads (plasma pistol that is). Give the company commander a fist, it'll hurt more than a PW, perhaps change one of the vet squads to melta instead of plas so you can handle anything nasty that gets close... With the points this gets you, maybe get a lascannon/extra plasma guns for the CCS?
Since you are mech'd up the date, I'd say you could drop the standard, because since you are mech'd you shouldn't be taking too many morale tests, and f you are getting stuck into combat the +1 hasn't made too much difference in my games.
On the subject of sentinels, I've had luck with them as scout sentinels, lascannon/HK missile. two 4+ shots is better than one, especially since you'll be shooting at side armour ideally (or even rear if you are lucky with your rolls, i know thats happened in my games)

And I personally love vet doctrines, I give close to everyone who can move quickly demolitions, because the turn when the enemy gets nearby and you drop a template of death on him...Ah their pain, their glorious pain.
Also, although he isn't top sh*t in killpoint missions, I never go to war without Marbo, He is just so badass, and if he survives the round of shooting after he rocks up, he can hurt dudes in combat too

KingCracker wrote:
Is Carapace/vox caster/regimental standard worth their points? Vox casters seems like a good buy, just to make sure those orders go through, but what of the others

Voxes are kinda meh and only good for blob armies, completely useless for mech armies since you cant give orders to embarked squads. Carapace is only really useful for packing in plasma guns. No one uses standards, a bit of a shame fluffwise but really either everyone is meched up or has a commissar.

KingCracker wrote:Just a quick DURP moment here but, in the CCS, does the carapace/frag/camo cloaks upgrade happen to the entire squad for the points listed? Im guessing yes, simply because 5pts per frag would be crazy pricey, and 20pts for carapace each mini would be really REALLY high, so Im thinking yes, but just want confirmation.

Correct

KingCracker wrote:Is PW/PP worth their points on a Sgt. in a Chimera? I know they are important in power blobs, but Im not running blobs, Im running mech shooty power.

Maybe PP if you want more plasma

KingCracker wrote:What heavy weapon is best used in a chimera? I put the lascannon in there for 2 reasons. 1) I dont have any AT in this build so a lascannon w/BS4 is a sound idea 2) again, I did it as it was the most expensive upgrade, and again to see where I was sitting points wise, as if I know the max pts I can make, I know what points game I can sit in at.

I usually dont bother since chimera vets are suppose to moving. Lascannon isnt too bad I guess but there are more mobile ways of getting lascannons

KingCracker wrote:And lastly, are Vet doctrines any use? Im thinking maybe the one with the melta bombs, but I dunno, they seem a bit pricey.

YMMV, demolitions gives a 20pt demo charge and 1pt melta bombs but requires to get really close to things. Carapace is useful for plasma but they're still 10 humans so it doesnt help them too much. FS is ok but if you want to camp in cover maybe take some platoons for numbers instead




Also

NEVER give the command squads (either one) close combat weapons. They are 5 men squads and will get horribly maimed by anything remotely CC orientated. Use points elsewhere

Personally I don't go for doctrines/carapace/banner as I'd rather put extra feet/special weapons on the ground... but if you're trying to make a workable force out of one battleforce it's not a bad plan.

It might be interesting to drop the lascannon on one Vet squad, arm them with meltas, shotguns and the demolitions doctrine. They will be a good tank hunting squad in their chimera, plus with the shotguns and meltas they can shoot/assault someone to try and get them off an objective when needed.

Based on my experience:

-Don't bother upgrading a commander with anything. He's not going to be winning any HtH fight regardless of what you put on him, so keep him cheap and try to keep him alive by keeping him out of combat completely.

-Same goes for vet sergeants. When somebody assaults you, you want your infantry unit to disintegrate completely and immediately so you can shoot the assaulters in your next turn. You don't want to risk a tied combat (or even winning) by putting dangerous/expensive stuff on your sergeants.

There are assaulty guard builds out there, but they typically are built around platoon blobs and the use of Straken. If you're building mech guard, you'll win games in the shooting and movement phase, or not at all. The assault phase is something you try to (1) avoid as much as possible and (2) lose as quickly as possible so you can get back to moving and shooting.

-Try plasma guns, but you'll probably find that melta serves you better all around. You have big AP3 templates and small AP1-2 templates for killing marines, so your mech infantry is best used to open the transports those marines are riding in so that the templates can get them. It's been the rule of IG since third edition: your infantry kills tanks, and your tanks kill infantry. Also, with only a 5+ save, you'll be losing a lot of guys to "gets hot."

-I haven't tried carapace armor, but I can't see where it would be worth it. Most of the time nobody can shoot at my guys anyway because they're inside a transport, and when they're outside it's usually because they're standing in a 4+ cover crater where the transport used to be. I'd rather spend those points on more guns and guys to fill the shoes of the 16% of my guys who would have been saved by the 4+ armor.

-Orders are nice, but not vital. The game almost never depends on passing an order, because if the unit fails they still get to shoot/run/go to ground or whatever anyway. So voxes aren't vital. Also, to confirm motyak's memory, you can't give orders to a unit inside a chimera, and you're not getting out of your chimeras if you can help it, so you're typically not using orders. My Mech IG army I give orders maybe once or twice per game, usually to a unit that has lost its transport, and if I fail the test, no big deal.

If you have 5 points left over, it's possible to give a vox to your CCS so that they can reroll attempts to give *themselves* orders. Again it's not vital, and you still have to be disembarked, but it can sometimes net you an extra melta hit or whatever.

-I'm a huge fan of the regimental standard. When my guys get blown out of their chimeras, it's usually in a perfect position to shoot something vital next turn with their flamers/meltas/lasguns. But if you fail the pin test, that unit is pretty much always dead. Usually you also have to make a morale test as well because of casualties from the explosion, and you're typically not going to be able to regroup in time (or at all) to do anything. I can't count the number of times the regimental standard has saved my bacon by giving my guys a reroll that made the difference between their standing in the crater and dying next turn versus fighting on to kill something important before dying.

Personally I don't use vet doctrines or heavy weapons inside chimeras. I'd rather have more vets, and my chimeras move every turn, so there'd be no point including a heavy weapon.

I've never been tempted to upgrade any CCS/PCS with anything beyond specialized weapons. Total waste of points.

Doctrines and Heavy Weapons are a big no-no; keep Vets lean and mean, and you won't be disappointed.

If you really want Chimera-mounted heavy weapons, then go with Mech Platoons; at 2k and higher, it's the only way to go, in order to have enough Troops and firepower.

Wow, every post had some nice tidbits, and so soon

Sheesh, Im going to have to read this a few times to soak it all in. Ok Ill admit, I wasnt thinking about not moving the chimeras to shoot the heavy weapons, I was mainly just thinking, man I could shoot 3 plasma shots and 1 lascannon/whatever heavy shot from the chimera. So Ill probably change that to make them more mobile and toss the heavy somewhere else, maybe even just have a HW team out there for the time being. I also didnt know about the Orders in chimeras, Ive been skimming through the codex so obviously thats one part I missed. Not a deal breaker though, as now I know at least for now, what I should and shouldnt take. Sweet, so with 1 battleforce set, I can field a pretty mean 500pt army (building some chimeras obviously)

As for sentinels, I already had a pretty good debate over those in a previous thread I made, they sound pretty badass to mean. Either variant even. One can scout and shoot holes in tank sides/rears, and the other is armored to the gills, packs a nice AI weapon and can tie up units with the best of them. And the way I play my Orks, I use cheap rokkit buggies to do similar things as well, and the main reason my army is so fierce is because of how I use those buggies, and Im seeing a similar role for sentinels in the IG.


Ok a whole bunch of good stuff, many thanks, and keep the ideas coming. And on that note, with the set up I listed, what would be a good heavy support tank to bring? Vanilla LRBT seem like an obvious/nice choice but is there anything else? And speaking of LRBT, Ive heard people say yes to sponsons and people say no to sponsons......what are the pros/cons to them?

Some russ's (looking at you plasma-death-russ) can benefit from sponsons, because they can be used to lay down bulk pain.

Others are more useful used more aggressively, and since none of the sponsons are S4 (no hurricane bolters or anything), so there is no real benefit having them if you are being aggressive and moving heaps.

I personally think vanilla LRBTs fall into the second category, give it a lascannon on its hull and no sponsons and it'll do a good job

Armored Sentinels are simply fantastic in a mech list. Your opponent has to choose between firing at the unprotected Chimeras in front, or the Obscured Sentinels behind pumping Autocannon shots into things. Simply fantastic for 60 pts.

As far as LRs go, I like the Punisher and Exterminator the most, but none of them are particularly effective without bubblewrap.

odorofdeath wrote:As far as LRs go, I like the Punisher and Exterminator the most, but none of them are particularly effective.

Fixed that for you.

If you really want a lrbt your best bet is definately just plain vanilla. You can't really argue with an av14, str8 ap3 ordnance large blast with 72 inch range, that can move and can fire its turret and hull weapon. It can also serve as backup anti armour with the str8 ordnance. Still, its only bs3 but it can and will soak up alot of fire. Magnetize your sponsons so you can test them out but I think it just adds unnecessary cost to an already expensive unit. Personally I like quantity and like to keep my heavy support options cheap with rerolls: the hydra or the griffon. It really lets you stack up the av12 especially at low point levels so you can also throw more points at bs4 vets and ccs.

Hydra Flak FTW "hey look 4 twinlinked autocannons that ignore flatout cover saves for 75pts" ahh wana-be rifle men...

Good Russ patterns are: LRBT, Demolisher and Executioner.
Executioner being the only one that benefits a lot from sponsons. (even when it moves you are shooting 4 S7 AP2 templates.)
Hydras are great too, run them in squadron of 2 and watch transports blow up.
Artillery are great too, cheaper than russ and can barrage. Manticore is probably the best, though I find Basilisk to be very valuable versus MEQ. Medusa is great being a cheaper Demolisher with longer range too.
Most of your vets should have meltas, though I find packing a few plasma to be very useful.
Keep your units cheap, they dont really need doctrines or upgrades, Demo Doctrine can be good if you have vets in Vendetta/Valkyrie though.

Leman russ tanks can move 6in and shoot everything, so I'm confused why people are telling you to have str4 wpns on the sponsoons. I'm a big fan of the demolisher and the excecutioner. It can completly eliminate a 170pt space marine squad in 1 round of shooting. If you can do it twice you've more than made up the huge cost of the plasma weaponry. The demolisher is a great all round tank that can tackle pretty much everything. With the excecutioner, never fire at vehicles. You're highly likely to miss since its a blast weapon and the str 7 isnt going to peirce much armour. Having a tank will also act as a big bullet magnet which will help you're chimera's get where they're needed. I prefer the meltgun as a special weapon in your vet squad because it will allow you to tackle both tanks and elite infantry(str 8 instant kills a lot of stuff) and the ap 1 is great.

Lumbering Behemoth lets you fire your turret weapon no matter how far you move. It definitely does not let you fire everything if you only move 6"; instead, you can shoot the turret+1 weapon.

Pretty much all blasts are inaccurate, but with BS3 the problem is compounded; hence, why I dislike the blast LR's, and blasts in general.

Albeezie wrote:Leman russ tanks can move 6in and shoot everything, so I'm confused why people are telling you to have str4 wpns on the sponsoons.

No. They don't. See below.

odorofdeath wrote:Lumbering Behemoth lets you fire your turret weapon if you moved at combat speed or remained stationary in addition to any other weapons it is normally allowed to fire . It definitely does not let you fire everything if you only move 6"; instead, you can shoot the turret+1 weapon.

Fixed that for you. Second part is correct, however.

odorofdeath wrote:Lumbering Behemoth lets you fire your turret weapon no matter how far you move. It definitely does not let you fire everything if you only move 6"; instead, you can shoot the turret+1 weapon.

Pretty much all blasts are inaccurate, but with BS3 the problem is compounded; hence, why I dislike the blast LR's, and blasts in general.

BS3 or 4 is not as big of a difference when it comes to blast compare to direct fire weapons.

*shrug* Still don't like blasts. Manticores are all I'm comfortable with, but hey, that's just my thing.

This is crazy. The last IG dex I had was 3rd edition, and even last edition, there wasnt so many tank variants. I like this though, because the variety is huge and you can have some honest to god, good discussions over them. Ill have to remember the tid bit from above somewhere "Infantry pop tanks, and tanks kill infantry" It seems a bit backwards in theory but I do get it though.

Because of that, Ill more then likely go melta heavy like everyone else, and use sentinels to help pop tanks, harass/tie up. So really, Im stuck with the decision of, where do I go for tanks? You guys mentioned so many points, Ill have to just sit and read the codex and ponder on it. Ill get back to you all on that later. And of course Im going to magnetize everything! Im not even joking, making my IG as flexible as possible is where Im planning on going for them. Im pretty excited to get started on this project, the only problem is, itll be after christmas

KingCracker wrote:This is crazy. The last IG dex I had was 3rd edition, and even last edition, there wasnt so many tank variants. I like this though, because the variety is huge and you can have some honest to god, good discussions over them. Ill have to remember the tid bit from above somewhere "Infantry pop tanks, and tanks kill infantry" It seems a bit backwards in theory but I do get it though.

Because of that, Ill more then likely go melta heavy like everyone else, and use sentinels to help pop tanks, harass/tie up. So really, Im stuck with the decision of, where do I go for tanks? You guys mentioned so many points, Ill have to just sit and read the codex and ponder on it. Ill get back to you all on that later. And of course Im going to magnetize everything! Im not even joking, making my IG as flexible as possible is where Im planning on going for them. Im pretty excited to get started on this project, the only problem is, itll be after christmas

You really can't go wrong with the LRBT, with HHB or Hull lascannon.
I prefer the Demolisher. it has a 30" threat range(24" + 6" movement) that usually makes it
deadly no later than the 2nd turn as fast as things can go. i do give it(them) plasma
sponsons giving them the greater threat range, goes well the the main gun's AP2
and still gives it teeth if i get a weapon destroyed roll.
i personally don't use the sentinels very often. i go for 2 Vendettas usually.
don't over look the awesomeness of the Hydra. Eldar/DE, Orks, Marines, everyone can have their day ruined
with a couple of these bad boys.

EDIT:
I'd suggest AC for the sentinels, and scout versions.
Out flanking them behind your opponent can be alot of fun and buy you some time for your other
units too.

The way I seem to play, I think Ill use the sentinels extensively TBH, so I will most definitely be trying out which weapons work best for me, and really the thought of scouting sentinels w/autocannons being super cheap appeals to me, but also, Im thinking maybe a lascannon would work well too, because then it would be a major threat to anything that isnt AV14 all around. But again, thats weighing the, cheaper or more power, debate. Ill just have to play with them and see what fits me best.