Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What's your opinion on DE WWP lists?

Strengths? weaknesses? Best delivery system? Possible lists for say, 1850 and 2000?

I'm considering building a WWP army and looking for input...........

If you've played against one in a tournament please notate any memories from the game and the outcome...

thanks,

Phillip

Strengths are that you can drop units of Wyches, right inot comabt, and then assault. Weakness is that you need an easily killed Archon or Haemonculus to get there and fast, without getting killed first. Best delivery system would be an Archon in a Raider or Venom, lightly armed, o it isn't target priority, armed with Shadowfield( IIRC that is the one that grants a 2++), and the 36" move upgrade.

The greatest downside is that you have to drop it on the first turn. If you don't, then half your army might end up walking.

With an all heamonculi leadership you can put a fair few down, so if you lose one its not such a big deal, but then you don't get uber SC's..

I use a 6 haemy list in wrack-filled raiders, with talos/cronos and other uglies in reserve. It's not optimised, but it is fun

I've found one of the strongest advantages is the ability to take 15-model Wych units. With a pain token, those units have such a greater survivability than 9-model Raider Wyches that they can tie up an entire flank by themselves and even hold objectives to some success. I use a foot-slogging WWP list and put my portals in Shadowseer Harlequin units. It's not as fast as using a Venom or Raider, but in most cases will survive the first turn. I'm also not a fan of the obligatory 3 Ravagers that DE players take, and the only reasonable way to use a Talos is to deploy it via the WWP.

thanks crew!

I'm looking at maybe putting a tooled out archon in with 7-10 harlies as the delivery system. Right now I also had 3 units of 15 wyches with 3 shardnets, haywire grenades and an agonizer. I'm also tossing the idea arround of supporting them with 2 talos, 1 cronos and 1 unit of bloodbrides with Lelith.

It already feels really light on anti-tank shooting though..... thoughts?

just2fierce wrote:thanks crew!

I'm looking at maybe putting a tooled out archon in with 7-10 harlies as the delivery system. Right now I also had 3 units of 15 wyches with 3 shardnets, haywire grenades and an agonizer. I'm also tossing the idea arround of supporting them with 2 talos, 1 cronos and 1 unit of bloodbrides with Lelith.

It already feels really light on anti-tank shooting though..... thoughts?

Heat lances on scourges and reavers, Dark Lances and Blasters on anyone who can take them, and Haywire grenades on wyches.

DE should never be without Dark Lights. If so, drop a wych unit for some Ravagers, Raiders or Razorwings.

In this type of list.....Scourges or reavers with heat lances, talos with heat lances and a ton of Haywire is the way to go....Dark light is good but isn't 100% necessary in this type of list.

just2fierce wrote:In this type of list.....Scourges or reavers with heat lances, talos with heat lances and a ton of Haywire is the way to go....Dark light is good but isn't 100% necessary in this type of list.

I wanted to think that as well, with my list, but some darklight will help out so much that I have found it necessary. I have had huge success with 4-man trueborn units with blasters coming out of the portal. I take my Shadowseer Harlequin unit and two units of 4 Blasterborn as my three Elites choices. When the Trueborn come out, they can take up positions right behind the Harlequins for cover and they get guaranteed shots at a 24" threat range from the portal the turn they come in. Every game I will get either a Wych unit or a Beastmaster unit come in from reserves along with a Trueborn unit, and everytime the Trueborn are able to pop the transport and allow the Wyches or Beasts to assault the occupants. Most of the time, my opponent is too worried with the assault elements of the army to shoot at the Trueborn, and they often get a second round of fire.

I've been tinkering with WWP firepower coming out of the portals, namely Blaster/shardcarbine Trueborn and Heat Lance/shardcarbine Scourges, with beast, wych, or hellion unit(s) for finishing off stragglers.

Right, some advantages/disadvantages that I can think of off the top of my head:

Advantages

Allows Talos, Cronos, and Grotesques to be fielded nicely. Arguably the only way to really get the first two into a list sensibly.

Large parts of your army are "untouchable" before they spill onto the table

Allows large/full squads of CC units to get into CC without being harassed beforehand.

With two WWP, you have very strong control of where your reserved units come out, and by extension very strong control of the wargaming surface. You are able to react to enemy deployment and movement by choosing what comes out where, allowing to to get your units into favorable offensive positioning against favorable targets. It can, if rolls go well, result in quite obscene levels of combat control.


Disadvantages

You need the first turn. Oh boy, do you ever need that first turn.

You NEED to drop the WWP on the first turn, as you start rolling for reserves at the start of the following turn. This means that your WWP deployment options are restricted... depending on deployment type, of course. Remember that someone inside still needs to get out and drop it, so the transport can't go flat out.

If the enemy somehow shoots down your WWP transport before it can move to place the holder, or if the enemy kills the WWP holder before he can place it... well.. that's you in a rut.

WWP's rely on reserves, which you have to roll for, meaning that there's a chance that nothing could come in at all, or too much can come in at once. If nothing comes through, your opponent can react to coutneract the WWP deployment, potentially nullifying them, which would completely castrate the DE player. If too many come in, one stands risk of running out of space to place them as they move out of the WWP, forcing the units to move out from the board edge miles away. One generally wants a nice flow of units through the WWP.

It's possible for the enemy, given the oppertunity, to surround the WWP, thus denying non-jetbike and non-jump infantry units from moving out of them, forcing them to move from the table edge. Having two WWP helps avoid this.

Investing in WWP carriers, particularly if you're investing in two WWP (as is generally recommended), does eat away points from places they would otherwise be spent - but it's all about building synergy.

Just played a tournament with a WWP list. My starting setup was: 1 haemon with grotesques in a raider deploying the WWP, 1 ravager, 2 venoms with warriors, 1 venom with trueborn. Out of the WWP then came, wyches, 2x talos, beastmaster, scourges, hellions with baron. I won 3 games, lost 2. I won mostly because the list was good at controlling objectives.

The downsides of this setup are: killpoints, the list offers to many kill points. Not starting against a very shooty opponent. Dawn of war mission is horrible with grotesques, as they arent troops, the haemon has to join something else, and leaving the grotesques give em a good chance to blow up.

Making a WWP list is a little more involved than casually putting a bunch of units together and hoping it all works out. You need to think about the opening turn more and that includes the mission possibilities, the deployment variables all the way down to terrain and objective placement – you have to be involved in all processes of the pre-game in order to give a wwp list the best chance to win.

I personally think that is why WWP lists are not considered tournament worthy as some of those factors are out of your hands and can make a wwp list more vulnerable. So I am not sure anyone would want an in-depth report on wwp theory but I will say this, if any of the rumors of 6th edition are true you will see the viability of wwp lists become much more viable. I really do think that the designers of the codex had 6th edition in front of them when they created the wwp rules which kind of explains why wwp lists in 5th edition as an oddity right now.

So yah, the first turn (no matter who has 1st move) and everything that has led up to it is incredibly important (from list design to deployment) much more so than the normal “rush” list (which I think there is more flexible and thus more forgiving).

Kharrak wrote:Right, some advantages/disadvantages that I can think of off the top of my head:
Disadvantages

You need the first turn. Oh boy, do you ever need that first turn.

You NEED to drop the WWP on the first turn, as you start rolling for reserves at the start of the following turn. This means that your WWP deployment options are restricted... depending on deployment type, of course. Remember that someone inside still needs to get out and drop it, so the transport can't go flat out.

If the enemy somehow shoots down your WWP transport before it can move to place the holder, or if the enemy kills the WWP holder before he can place it... well.. that's you in a rut.

WWP's rely on reserves, which you have to roll for, meaning that there's a chance that nothing could come in at all, or too much can come in at once. If nothing comes through, your opponent can react to coutneract the WWP deployment, potentially nullifying them, which would completely castrate the DE player. If too many come in, one stands risk of running out of space to place them as they move out of the WWP, forcing the units to move out from the board edge miles away. One generally wants a nice flow of units through the WWP.

It's possible for the enemy, given the oppertunity, to surround the WWP, thus denying non-jetbike and non-jump infantry units from moving out of them, forcing them to move from the table edge. Having two WWP helps avoid this.

Investing in WWP carriers, particularly if you're investing in two WWP (as is generally recommended), does eat away points from places they would otherwise be spent - but it's all about building synergy.

You only need the first turn if you are using a Raider or Venom to deploy the Portal with some form of suicide unit. Its the single biggest failing of most WWP lists I have seen and why from a competitive POV you pretty much instantly dismiss it. A list which almost automatically loses if it goes second cannot expect to do well in tournaments (even with the Baron your still looking at a 4-2 record at best imo). This is why I've started using Harlies to deploy the Portals instead, they are more conservative but also far more reliable. They are the complete opposite to the more common WWP deployment options, and actually want to go second since they pretty much can't be shot and give your opponent a quasi null deployment to deal with. The biggest disadvantage is that you aren't getting the Portal as far up the field, which is partially mitigated by having two Portals and dropping 1 first turn and 1 second turn. You also max out your Beast packs, who are fast enough and durable enough to run across the field if everything backs away from the Portal. Either way it gets everything 8-14" closer without being shot and effectively wastes 1-2 turns of your opponents shooting. It also means that if you are facing an aggressive/fast mech list which tries to box you in and block the Portals they are going to be easily within range of assault from Beasts coming off your board edge.

To me aside from the first turn issue, the biggest issues with WWP lists are reserves and the initial investment in the deployment of the Portal. Reserves you are never going to get around completely, it can be a major problem for you but on the other hand you can also use it to cause headaches for your opponent (if some of your heavy hitters haven't come on he still has to account for them in multiple possible locations or can easily forget about them etc). DE have no reserves control, so probably the most important thing is to maximise the number of units you have. Rather than take 1-2 big units take 4-5 smaller units to increase the number of reserve rolls you get to ensure you have something arrive each turn (although big units are nice to have if you have the points). The cost of the Portal + deployment unit is less of an issue using Harlies (since they aren't suicide units, pack a decent punch themselves and can be used to screen if you need to move across the board a bit) but still something inherent to the list. Imo it really limits Portal based lists to use above 1750, below that and the cost of two deployment units + Portals cuts into your core list too much.