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So through the bits I have gathered up I can fashion either 20 Flagellants or 20 Greatswords. Pointwise they are about the same (10 pts each, only the greatsword command makes it more expensive). Frankly, I like both units in terms of looks and background. It comes down to which is a better tactical choice, I know that in certain situations one would clearly be better than annother, but I'm talking about overall. What are your guys preference? What are your experiences playing them? Let me know so I can make the right choice. Keep in mind that I can make only 20 and would prefer to keep it around that size.

If you're only going to have 20, I'd build them as Greatswords. With Full-plate armour they're more survivable so 20 isn't a bad unit size. With Flagellants you really want at least 30, as you have martyrs and T3 no armour so they die in droves... but that's what they're for. 30 ensures you do some serious damage to another unit and tie them up in combat for a round or two.

Yeah, that makes sense. too bad that you can only take up to 30 flagellants, I was thinking of running a mob of 30 but at 300+ points they seem to be kinda expensive for S/T 3, WS 2, no armor guys with flails

djdutton wrote:Yeah, that makes sense. too bad that you can only take up to 30 flagellants, I was thinking of running a mob of 30 but at 300+ points they seem to be kinda expensive for S/T 3, WS 2, no armor guys with flails

Don't forget unbreakable, with permanant frenzy, optional hatred, likely rerolls to wound, Str 5 first round of combat

Unbreakable is nice and so is frenzy, but optional hatred and re-roll to wound comes at the cost of sacrifices guys, which since they are unbreakable doesnt mean much for combat resolution, but the unit will be destroyed that much quicker. If I was playing skaven and sacrificing slaves that would be quirky and fun, but its 10pts a model that im sacrificing and thats just difficult to accept

Well the sacrificing is a tactical option. In a first round of combat rerolls to hit and wound at str5 can completetly decimate an enemy unit at the cost of 2-3 flags.. completetly worth it.

But yes, they're a glass cannon and can die very quickly and sometimes the sacrificing isn't a good idea, especially if you want the to tie something up for a few turns.

Great swords.
Awesome armor and they kill stuff quite efficiently.

Ugh, its such a hard choice, both are very cool. I guess maybe the context of my army should help. Im doing a semi-gunline of 2 cannons, 2 helstorm rocket batteries, a mortar, 16 handgunners and crossbowmen, 7 pistolers, 10 knights, 30 swordsmen and halberds and a steam tank. depending on which group I take will effect gear choices for some of the units, but given the other units which do you think would be more effective?

Greatswords, they will make a nice bodyguard for your BSB and/or General

Flagellants offer straight up more damage in the first round of combat, due to the extra attack from frenzy and their hatred. Unbreakable is also a fair bit better than stubborn.

On the other hand, the 4+ save of the greatswords means they're a whole lot more likely to be hanging around in decent numbers after the first round of combat, and they get to keep their strength attacks round after round. Also, if you're going to invest a big pile of points in a large unit of greatswords, then you're almost certainly going to get them a warrior priest, so they'll have hatred as well. Then there's also WS 4, which increases the chance you'll only be hit on a 4+, and removes the risk of coming up against WS and having to hit on 5+. And you can take really big units of greatswords, whereas flagellants are capped at 30.

For my mind, this makes greatswords the clearly dominant choice in taking in big numbers, accompanied by warrior priests, your general and maybe even your battle standard bearer, and being about the closest thing the Empire can get to a really powerful infantry block.

On the other hand, being unsupportable and already having hatred, I find flagellants are best used out on a flank, giving versatility to an Empire army that's normally forced to keep all it's troops near to the general and BSB. Most armies will deploy one of two kinds of units out on the flanks - a fairly small, modest unit that is there to give a supporting flank charge to a more powerful unit, and really powerful units designed to wreck face as part of a refused flank. If you're facing a weaker enemy unit, the flagellants can make quick work of the weaker enemy unit and then be brought around to provide your own flanking charge. If they end up facing off against a powerful enemy unit they can hold it up for a couple of turns thanks to being unbreakable.

Thanks for the help, they both seem pretty good, but I think I'm gonna go with Flagellants. If I want high strength I got knights and halberds in my list and guns for anything that needs a real beating. Having an Unbreakable unit means I can deal with anything threatening and hold them down so that another unit can get the flank charge.

Although I'm still probably gonna make some greatsword models in the future. They just look tight, haha

Greatswords can hold just as well as the flagellants, especially with BSB and inspiring presence. You also have to consider that Flags with die exponentially faster then greatswords (WS 4 full plate vs WS 2 no armor). Unbreakable was big last edition, not as much this edition. Flags are not a tarpit anymore, they are a hammer unit.

If you want a true tarpit, then invest in a steam tank. If you are trying to pin a unit in place then flank them, the flags will give up a TON of combat res through deaths, and possibly make your flanking unit run. A steam tank will give barely any combat res with T10 1+ save.

I think a very pertinent question to ask before I can answer with my opinion is, what lore are you using?

If you aren't running state troops, then you may not be running an augment-heavy lore. I think lore of light is fantastic for empire. But if you are only planning to run a single small block for combat, then light lore won't be the right choice.

If you use light lore, then flagellants all the way. They benefit from ws increases, initiative increases, additional attacks and ASF. Greatswords really only care about half of each of those buffs because of ASL, so you should go with flagellants instead. However if you are running lore of metal, you can have 2+ armor greatswords with armor piercing. If you chose metal or life lore, then greatswords are going to be pro.

Also, are you going to have warrior priests? It's definitely a factor in deciding when flagellants are core.

Hope that was helpful.

Greatswords. The armor save will come through for you again and again and again.

Hmm well i play high elves but just from everyones description of the two units and your quick army list. I'd have to say greatwords as from an enemy point of view they know they are going to take a torrent of fire to get to you which will come at the cost of having weaker troop defences once they reach your lines . Yet the greatswords will pretty much throw that notion out the window by providing not only a solid, durable not to mention very reliable backbone to your army.. that can also give elite blocks a run for their money, especially after having a mortar or two on their heads.

Personal opinion . Haha

Since I'm at home now I think I'll expand on what I posted earlier.

Empire is pretty lucky in terms of the ratio of usable units. But winning with them is a lot tougher than it seems at first. Take a peek at other races combat units before you get too excited about greatswords or flagellants as a pure unsupported combat threat. They may be good for us. But compare them to chaos warriors, black guard, saurus warriors, swordmasters/white lions to see where we sit on the power curve.

That doesn't mean that they aren't worth taking, it just means empire needs a plan in order to level the playing field.

I really like light and heavens for empire because we don't ever do anything without bringing lots of friends along, these two lores provide us with augments that hit multiple units at the same time. So as I was mentioning before, if you had your wizard in a bunker behind your big swordsmen and halberdier blocks, and you also had the flagellants or greatswords nearby, then you could catch all three blocks in a speed of light/timewarp/harmonic convergance. Our blocks aren't super-stars (even the specials and rares) and so getting more mileage out of our power dice by catching multiple units in a single augment is great.

If you are on board so far, then I'll go further. If you chose lore of light, then you are going to want flagellants. Its because time warp gives you ASF. That won't do much for greatswords because it will just cancel out ASL, and make them swing at I3, which most of the time might as well be ASL. The other good buff spell gives them initiative 10, which is totally useless to the greatswords. That same buff gives flagellants weapon skill 10, so they'll be hitting on 3s (probably with built-in rerolls). So the flagellants inherent weakness is mitigated a great deal by ASF. If you cast time warp, a 10 wide horde of 30 flagellants will be attacking with a possible 50 re-roll hit, maybe re-roll wound, strength 5 attacks that ASF. Thats just silly.

Ok, but what if you took heavens? Well, harmonic convergence would benefit greatswords more. One of the things you can re-roll is armor saves, which the flagellants dont have. I favor light over heavens with this list type, because its very rare that the halberdiers actually get an armor save as well, and so they tend to miss out on the reroll.

'But Shep!' you say... 'light lore and heavens lore are lame, I want to use metal lore! Well then, go for greatswords all the way. Glittering robe on greatswords is gross, combine it with either of the hexes on the enemy unit you are fighting, and the balance of power shifts. Now you are rocking a 2+ save for two rounds of combat, and they are dealing with -1 armor and maybe even -1 WS, which, with WS4 is more likley to matter than with WS2.

But Shep, I like fire lore! Then you probably just want 50 man halberd or swordsmen units and just grind out with fire-cloak... Don't take fire lore

But Shep! Beast lore! Then take lots of cav and a grand master... put your wizard on a horse and put savage beast on grand master.... don't take beast lore

Lore of Life! Lore of life is a very powerful lore. The more valuable your models are, the mo bettah the spells are. +2 toughness is pretty darn good on both greatswords and flagellants, but even at 10 points per model, neither unit makes a good regrowth target. While you are busy making one of your units more survivable, your opponent will be running right through your other units. If I was determined to take life lore, I would run a greatsword death star, 50 of them... and then try to get earth blood and/or flesh to stone on them, and then regrowth them when you can. Don't do this unless you are bored

Lore of shadow! Everyone is doing it! Neither the flagellants nor the greatswords get as much out of okkam's mind razor as other armies do. Withering would be great to power up some shooting, and I guess I'd take a general of the empire so that I could buy a 50 strong spearmen horde the banner of discipline. Again, since you are only augmenting one unit per spell, then all but one of your units needs to be self sufficient. Aside from knights, and possibly hatred powered greatswords, there isn't anything in empire that is self sufficient.

Death lore! It doesnt do enough to help the bad combat units we have. Soulblight makes everything we've got better against one or more enemy units by a little bit, and it helps flagellants and greatswords evenly, so you could take either.


I don't like to add the possiblity of a warrior priest to the greatsword unit as a way to make them look more desirable, the act of even purchasing the 90 point model unlocks flagellants as core, and adding a full 90 points to a unit that is the same cost as flagellants, skews the point for point effectiveness. Furthermore, a lot of people could kill off a warrior priest before the ASL greatswords get to swing, losing you a wimpy character, and the re-rolls you were hoping for. Now if you were going to run a geeked out arch lector with VHS and AoMI, then its a different story, he'd make greatswords have hatred for that first round almost guaranteed. but a 2 wound warrior priest probably won't live that long when you are dealing with enemy units that are rocking 3 strength 5 or 4 strength 3-4 attacks per base.

I restate my vote for flagellants, because I like lore of light to buff not only the flaggies but also a pair of halberdier hordes. Once you step away from lore of light though. I'd agree that greatswords are more sturdy to shooting, and better 'grinders'. Even then, if you took an arch lector on war altar you'd have time warp and core flagellants, if you took a warrior priest to increase the consistency of your knight block, then you have that core unit of flags. I really wish the general of the empire made greatswords core. I would rock Heavens lore and three blocks of greatswords in a heartbeat!

Yeah, Im having a arch lector on a war alter (made it myself so I am definately using it) so that means he's basically a light mage. I have one other mage, but not sure what to run him as. I feel like I am half gunline, half combat since I have the flagellant/greatswords, 30 swordsmen, 30 halberds, 10 knights and a steam tank. The rest of my points are invested in different guns and hangunners/crossbowmen.

I feel that having the lore of light and being able to choose any spell means that the flagellants get a good boost from that. I could also run a lore of life wizard to hopefully add regen or resurrect dead flagellants (or other dudes from suffering units)

scubasteve04 wrote:Greatswords can hold just as well as the flagellants, especially with BSB and inspiring presence

As I explained in my answer already, that leaves the Greatswords competing for space in amongst the bubble of the BSB and general's inspiring presence, along with most of the rest of the army. This will likely leave the army as a whole vulnerable to flanking.

On the other hand, flagellants can be stuck out on a flank, by themselves, with the player safe in the knowledge that the enemy will have to kill every last one of them, because they will not break.