Did Crux Terminatus exist in the Pre-heresy Era?

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**mwnciboo**

Did this symbol exist before the Heresy or only after it?

**1hadhq**

If you believe in the crux containing a fragment of the Emperors armor, then NO.

Lots of symbols were codified in the codex astartes and the crux terminatus is most likely on of them.

**Durza**

Abaddon's third ed fluff mentioned something about his crux terminatus being improved by the gods I think.

**Leigen_Zero**

AFAIK old golden-throne isn't going to start breaking up his armour while he's still using it, so I'm guessing the CT was created post-heresy (what with him not really needing it any more)

Durza wrote:Abaddon's third ed fluff mentioned something about his crux terminatus being improved by the gods I think.

Probably happened post-heresy, due to above reasoning

**BluntmanDC**

Leigen_Zero wrote:AFAIK old golden-throne isn't going to start breaking up his armour while he's still using it, so I'm guessing the CT was created post-heresy (what with him not really needing it any more)

Durza wrote:Abaddon's third ed fluff mentioned something about his crux terminatus being improved by the gods I think.

Probably happened post-heresy, due to above reasoning

The major problem with that would be why would Abaddon have a crux terminus if it was post-heresy, seeing as Abaddon was with chaos.

The crux terminus was probably a pre-heresy peice of tech that was they altered to hold a piece of the Emperors armour, or there are to types, pre heresy and post heresy.

**1hadhq**

Why should it be pre-heresy?

Anybody know of a suit of TDA with a crux terminatus spotted on these:

- Justaerin?
- Morlocks?
- Deathshroud?
- etc etc

As far as I can see the TDA was new and only a limited amount of sets was delivered to the Legions pre-heresy.
If it was a device, it would remain on those sets worn by traitors. Any CSM with crux spotted?

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Crux terminatus once granted +1 attack as it represented veteran status and could be given to PA veterans too.
When GW accepted the 2+ armor save wasn't enough, a 5+ invul save was granted. But the crux lost its +1 attack since veterans nowadays get +1 attack usually.

**mwnciboo**

That was my thoughts, however with no clear point as to when this device was brought in i thought I would ask the forum.

**Raulmichile**

Crux Terminatus is a badge, not a piece of wargear. Anyway, as Crux Terminatus comes from RT times it is a piece of fluff that for many years was used contradictingly in various sources. Now it is mostly established that was created post-heresy and Chaos Legions don't use it.

In reality Termie Armour's inv save is not because it contains an energy field of any sort, but because it is very, very thik and is full of life protecting gear, pain suppressors and such.

**The Epic Chaosdude!!!**

Raulmichile wrote:Crux Terminatus is a badge, not a piece of wargear. Anyway, as Crux Terminatus comes from RT times it is a piece of fluff that for many years was used contradictingly in various sources. Now it is mostly established that was created post-heresy and Chaos Legions don't use it.

In reality Termie Armour's inv save is not because it contains an energy field of any sort, but because it is very, very thik and is full of life protecting gear, pain suppressors and such.

I dont know. If the Terminator gets wounded by a melta blast, the armour saves him? No forcefield? Well its said that terminator armour was originally developed to allow repairs in plasma generators, so that would actually make sense.

OP

I have never seen a Heresy picture with crux terminatus. Those were made only at post-heresy IMHO.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Raulmichile wrote:Crux Terminatus is a badge, not a piece of wargear. Anyway, as Crux Terminatus comes from RT times it is a piece of fluff that for many years was used contradictingly in various sources. Now it is mostly established that was created post-heresy and Chaos Legions don't use it.

In reality Termie Armour's inv save is not because it contains an energy field of any sort, but because it is very, very thik and is full of life protecting gear, pain suppressors and such.

This. It's the layer upon layer of adamantium that gives the invul save. The Crux Terminatus is just a symbol.

**Raulmichile**

Termie armour was given an inv save in 3rd Ed because of the sudden increase in the number of weapons with enough AP to render it useless, balancing it out once more.

For instance, in 1st and 2nd Ed when there was no "AP" but save modifiers instead, plasma weapons reduced armour saves by 2 and melta weapons by 4. The most powerful weapons reduced by six armour saves at most. Terminators the saved with 3+ ... in two dice.... so do the math and you will see they were nigh unkillable to small arms fire and very difficult to kill with plasma and melta.

All this uberness went to the drain when game mechanics changed and melta/plasma/lascannon were massively upgraded to kill things with the new AP system and Termies were downgraded to a mere 2+ AS. Game designers realized Termies were dying like flies to these weapons and decided that a 5+ inv save would balance things out once more so that models sales wouldn't drop.

**Ma55ter_fett**

Raulmichile wrote:Termie armour was given an inv save in 3rd Ed because of the sudden increase in the number of weapons with enough AP to render it useless, balancing it out once more.

For instance, in 1st and 2nd Ed when there was no "AP" but save modifiers instead, plasma weapons reduced armour saves by 2 and melta weapons by 4. The most powerful weapons reduced by six armour saves at most. Terminators the saved with 3+ ... in two dice.... so do the math and you will see they were nigh unkillable to small arms fire and very difficult to kill with plasma and melta.

All this uberness went to the drain when game mechanics changed and melta/plasma/lascannon were massively upgraded to kill things with the new AP system and Termies were downgraded to a mere 2+ AS. Game designers realized Termies were dying like flies to these weapons and decided that a 5+ inv save would balance things out once more so that models sales wouldn't drop.

Aye, I remember reading a chapter aproved or something like that where they talked about the 5+ inv terminators

**mwnciboo**

Well I didn't realise that the 5+ came from an over-compensating for the original re-balancing in 3rd edition. I have looked through my book with the Images of the Heresy, and cannot see any Crux Terminatus. So I won't use them on my Morlock Iron Hands.

**KamikazeCanuck**

That was the story where the guy gets stepped on by a Titan and survives iirc.

**Dakkadood**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That was the story where the guy gets stepped on by a Titan and survives iirc.

Considering the Mass of both the Terminator and the Titan, it's quite believable that the Termie would penetrate the softer ground, something similar can happen when you step on a small stone while on sand.

**Vermillion**

mwnciboo wrote:Well I didn't realise that the 5+ came from an over-compensating for the original re-balancing in 3rd edition. I have looked through my book with the Images of the Heresy, and cannot see any Crux Terminatus. So I won't use them on my Morlock Iron Hands.

Rogue trader they also had a 2+ (single D6) save as well. Armour modifiers meant only heavy weapons had much of an impact but you could upgrade them with refractor fields for a 5+ save with it also. ASM's were a great way to balance things imo, pity 40k dropped them. Oh well, back to fantasy for me

**BrainDeleted**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That was the story where the guy gets stepped on by a Titan and survives iirc.

Index Astartes "Deep Strike: Tactical Dreadnought Armour" wrote:Lights flared around the Titan's head as Imperial fire impacted on its void shields, but the enormous machine ignored them, lifting one huge leg ponderously from the ground. Egil could clearly hear the whine of its powerful actuators over the explosions. The gigantic war-machine's foot smashed aside buildings in its path and Egil realised with sick horror exactly where it would stamp down.

'Everybody up! Move!' he yelled and fired his jump pack as the shadow of the Titan's foot descended upon them. Egil powered through the air, heedless of the crack of small arms fire that burst around him, angling for the cover of a shatter bunker. He landed badly and cursed as he fell to the rubble looking back to see Kaarlson slowly lumbering through the ruins. He screamed his name as the mass of the Titan's foot smashed through the building and crashed down upon the Wolf Guard Terminator. Egil covered his head as the Titan's other foot swept above him, showering dust and debris. Howling with rage, he fired his bolter ineffectually at the Titan as it strode onwards, unheeding of the great warrior it had just killed.

Egil again reloaded his weapon, his thoughts filled with avenging the fallen Kaarlson. He looked over towards the flattened building and watched with astonishment as the rubble began to shift and heave. Massive chunks of plascrete and steel were pushed aside as Kaarlson pulled himself free of the debris. His terminator armour had been gashed open in a dozen different places and his blood was splashed crimson against its grey, but he was alive. The Wolf Guard Terminator joined Egil in the ruins of the bunker and shouted, 'Like I said sergeant. Ready your men. We've wasted enough time!'

KAAAAAAAARLSSSSOOOONNNN!!!!!

**KamikazeCanuck**

I haven't read that in years. Thanks.