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What's the beast small, elite, terminator-style army and why?

Deathwing.

Draigowing is cool, but it dies to armies that spam a lot of high strength low AP weapons, like dark eldar. Deathwing can take stormshields on their troops for free, as well as longer ranged firepower.

Purifiers aren't a terminator style army -__-

I know but I wanted to include them-perhaps "small elite" would have been a better phrase..

I think that the best army right now is Draigo.

I think that Draigo can do well but it has the same fault of all elite army list. It needs to be at the right point cost to be effective. I also think that Draigo has a slight advantage with the all power weapons and psycannons in a squad. The list as a whole can benefit from a Vindicare and Techmarine. The Psykotrobe grenades and bolster defense on the Vindicare can ruin anyones day.

Deathwing on the other hand have no real benefit of being in the Deathwing. Paladins get a bonus to WS and W. Along with other stats in choices of war gear. Deathwing just have the lower point cost but they do not get the amount of shots that Draigo gets. They also do not get the amount of support that Draigo gets either.

I hope that this was helpful. I recently played a Deathwing army and I will post a battle report soon.

Zedrenael wrote:I think that the best army right now is Draigo.

I think that Draigo can do well but it has the same fault of all elite army list. It needs to be at the right point cost to be effective. I also think that Draigo has a slight advantage with the all power weapons and psycannons in a squad. The list as a whole can benefit from a Vindicare and Techmarine. The Psykotrobe grenades and bolster defense on the Vindicare can ruin anyones day.

Deathwing on the other hand have no real benefit of being in the Deathwing. Paladins get a bonus to WS and W. Along with other stats in choices of war gear. Deathwing just have the lower point cost but they do not get the amount of shots that Draigo gets. They also do not get the amount of support that Draigo gets either.

I hope that this was helpful. I recently played a Deathwing army and I will post a battle report soon.

^^Such bad information about the Deathwing.
There are benefits of being Deathwing.
1. Fearless...this is huge! When Draigowing can fail a morale check and be escorted off the board (especially against IG with PBS), Deathwing will stay in it untill the end. With a small army, a single failed morale check can cost you the game.
2. Adding Cyclones to TH/SS termie squads. The only downfall of CC termies is their vulnerability to ranged/fast opponents. With 2 S8 shots a turn, per squad, that vulnerability is mitigated.
3. DW Assault. Dropping 1/2 your Termies from reserve on turn one is a game changer against shooty armies like IG.

As for Draigowing or Deathwing Vs. All Comers... Deathwing have the staying power to face all comers with 48" range CMLs, and 3++ SS. For Draigowing to get the same 3++ from cover, they have to use shrouding and hide in cover, relying on 24" guns. Deathwing can walk in the open and with their CMLs, and engage targets much further away. This makes DW far better at dealing with armies that spam lots of high S, low AP weapons, like IG and DE...which are 2 of the top codexes atm. And when facing such weaponry, the pallies extra wound doesn't matter, since the weapons cause ID.

That was a good point about fearless. If you are taking lots of squads will 5 models Ld9 isn't fun, virtually every phase a model goes down you'll roll so you will fail at some point. Escorting Grey Knight squads off the board is very common occurrence.

In general I find playing deathwing to be weird but awesome. I can only comment about playing against the other two and I have only seen people play them badly.

That's why you put Draigo or some other IC in the unit to give paladins LD10.

But honestly, play the one you think may be the most fun or that you like the most. There is no right or wrong, just different playstyles is all. All are competitive and they will all vary in performance depending on the opponent.

What if I added in Doublewing and Termie-heavy BT's into the mix? Is it better to run a "pure" Deathwing list or should we add some Drednaughts?

Deathwing lists usually contain some Ravenwing elements - you can put multi meltas on Landspeeders and the bikes are often taken for their homing beacons to help land Deep striking Terminators.

You don't have to take the homing beacons because terminators can foot slog it if you arm all your termies with TH/SS. The AP1 that multi meltas have are really useful since the cyclone missile launchers that are generally given to the terminators are only AP3 so I would recommend at least some Land Speeders. If you want to put Lightning Claws on a squad and stick Belial with them and a banner, you may wish to consider a Land Raider.

The above are the most common additions to Terminators but I would also consider Dreads with plasma cannons for some AP2 blasts or Vindicators which use the large blasts. The extra blasts can help against hordes but as I've already said, I would really recommend the Land Speeders for some much needed AP1.

So, if one is drawing up a DW list, how should the termies be armed? I see a lot of people go for th/ss and cml...but is that not a little one dimensional?

It's pretty much necessary to run them with TH/SS and a cyclone. DW are one of a very few armies that can take their weapons in that configuration and it is what makes them viable. You can go for 3 TH/SS and 2 LC with a cyclone in there but those LC termies are really soft compared to the TH/SS ones. DW can only take 5 men per squad so they need to be tough. And since TH/SS is the best way to equip them, you need some long range, hence the Cyclones.

TH/SS allow you to footslog and stand around holding an objective. They give you decent saves against even the toughest guns and help you to withstand getting shot if you deep strike in. If you want to mix up your weapons a lot more then I really think you'll need to put them in a Land Raider and they're not cheap.

OK...So Belial, th/ss termies, Melta Speeders and plasma dreads...Is that a concensus??

For Deathwing, I would actually suggest going 2 TH/SS, and 3 Storm Bolters on most of your squads, especially if you are going pure terminators. If you have 8 or so squads, and bring 6 with 3 stormbolters, that's 36 storm bolter shots a turn, is pretty decent anti-infantry, which is something DW can struggle against (hordes, mainly).

Bringing 2-3 squads with TH/SS is enough to handle most CC threats, and most enemy shooting cannot reliably force more than 2 invul saves on a squad of terminators, so you rarely need more than 2 shields anyway. Thats been my experience, anyway.

I'd also suggest bringing a chain fist in some of your squads, as they are cheap and very useful for taking out AV12+, which missiles can sometimes have trouble with.

If you don't want to go pure termy, i'd put in bike squads with meltas (to get rid of tank threats), predators (to thin out hordes), or landspeeders (tank killers). The only reason to take anything other than terminators is to fill the gaps in what terminators are good at killing (heavy tanks and hordes). Most other things don't really strike me as useful, and dreads seem like they'd just be good targets for enemy missiles.

Son_Of _Deddog wrote:OK...So Belial, th/ss termies, Melta Speeders and plasma dreads...Is that a concensus??

In fact, add a Apothecary to Belial's unit and max-out the cyclones. Speeders should have heavy flamers and multimeltas giving them a dual role.

jcd386 wrote:For Deathwing, I would actually suggest going 2 TH/SS, and 3 Storm Bolters on most of your squads, especially if you are going pure terminators. If you have 8 or so squads, and bring 6 with 3 stormbolters, that's 36 storm bolter shots a turn, is pretty decent anti-infantry, which is something DW can struggle against (hordes, mainly).

Bringing 2-3 squads with TH/SS is enough to handle most CC threats, and most enemy shooting cannot reliably force more than 2 invul saves on a squad of terminators, so you rarely need more than 2 shields anyway. Thats been my experience, anyway.

I'd also suggest bringing a chain fist in some of your squads, as they are cheap and very useful for taking out AV12+, which missiles can sometimes have trouble with. .....

This is interesting, as the argument for all SS/TH seemed compelling. How would you divide the squads at 1500 points, given that we're also trying to fit in a couple of Dreads??

You could do this:

Belial
hammer & shield (wastes his high I but gives him Sv 2+/3++)
130

4x 5 terminators
2 TH/SS
2 storm bolter/powerfist
storm bolter/powerfist/cyclone
(Belial's squad gets an apothecary)
970

2x 1 landspeeder
typhoon launcher, multimelta
150

2 dreadnoughts
plasma cannon, DCCW w/ storm bolter
250

1500 exactly

Thank you very much; what do people think of this list?? What do people think of the mixed Terminator idea? Do Dreadnoughts add anything?

Wound allocation can also work well in a DW Termie squad where you assign a specific wound to a model with a better inv. save.

At 1500 points, I go:

Belial

5 x squads of TH/SS terminators with 1 cyclone missile launcher
3 x Land Speeder with Multi Melta. Its 1500 points exactly.

I wouldn't add Dreads at 1500 points because you need the troops numbers. Going over 1500, add in stuff with low AP blasts if you wish. Bikes with homers are good and more termies is fine too - depepnds on how you want to play.

I don't agree that only taking two TH/SS per squad will suffice, generally speaking. Sure, you can mix up weapons taking LC and a chainfist or whatever but I would only do that if you are jumping out of a Land Raider. The fact is that there are too many armies that can whack you with long raged weaponry that will cut through your 2+ armour saves easily. 5+ invul saves are not very good and if you're not in Land Raiders, then by the time you get anywhere near CC, you may only have your two TH/SS termies left if you're lucky and that's not going to frighten many opponents. In CC, other than termies equipped with LC, you'll be hitting at I1 so probably hitting last. Any decent number of power weapons and you're going down - TH/SS termies really help to slow that down and when thunder hammers do hit, they hit hard and you will kill a few opposing models. Because you only have 5 per squad, in CC you're likely to be locked in combat for more than 1 turn so you need to be durable. Again, Storm Shields are really important for this.

It really depends on how you wish to play but if you want to survive longer TH/SS will see to that. Other weapons combinations may have their place situationally but taking a few storm bolters per squad isn't going to frighten anyone, imo. Say you take 4 storm bolter termies - that's 8 shots so 5-6 hits which is 2-3 wounds against which most things will get their armour saves. In CC, there's not much that can take a Thunder Hammer on the chin and the storm shields will help you get there in one piece.

The cyclone missile launchers are S8 AP3 so anything MEQ and 'lower' will die to one hit and in my list, you have 10 such shots. The Cyclones are also great for taking out transports. The cyclones can fire frags, too which help against hordes. Basically, I think (and this is based on my own experience) 1 cyclone missile launcher firing two shots has the potential to cause far more damage than storm bolters on 3 or 4 terminators. So, you don't really need the storm bolters but you do need storm shields to help your survivability. And thunder hammers frighten opponents.

I think the matter at hand is being blurred. The matters at hand are:

Should all termies be TH/SS or mixed? Hmm..Looks compelling for all TH/SS with CML to me..
Do Dreadnaughts actually add to the list at 1500? Thinking about it, and listening to everyone,no..Also, I belive DA Dreads are typically more expensive...
Should speeders and/or bikes be included?Seems so

Which only leaves...

What do people think of Teleport Homers?

Should Belial (who I am lead to believe has a high I ) have SS/TH (and so waste it..but improve his save..)?

Can you start a new thread to discuss deathwing.

First point is you can not just have termies. Your list will be too unbalanced. About half your points on the troops should about right, also get the apoth and banner.

Second point a few stormbolters will add nothing. Your CML will be aimed at other targets and most likely targets more than 24'' away. Maybe take one squad with stormbolters but that is a bit extreme. Actually purely TH/SS suffers a little with cc, so take a couple of LCs in each squad.

Third point would be typhoons are the only support available that is cheap. You should take three and I never know whether multimelta or heavy bolter is better on them. I have tried multimelta but then just kept myself more than 24'' to hide behind preds and shoot missiles.

Fourth point would be the rest of the codex is expensive so you will have to bite the bullet. You require range and mobility so I usually go for preds and dreads. Vindis run away too quickly. Bike squads are good for DWA but you do not want to it that much and their scout move isn't that far, also they are not killy enough and give a soft target.

Dualwing I find requires a fairly large number of points to work. If you take more than 6 bikes than you should really think about Sammael.

Son_Of _Deddog wrote:Termie-heavy BT's into the mix?

Far and away the worst option, despite BTs having the best Terminators.

MFletch wrote:Can you start a new thread to discuss deathwing.

First point is you can not just have termies. Your list will be too unbalanced. About half your points on the troops should about right, also get the apoth and banner.

Second point a few stormbolters will add nothing. Your CML will be aimed at other targets and most likely targets more than 24'' away. Maybe take one squad with stormbolters but that is a bit extreme. Actually purely TH/SS suffers a little with cc, so take a couple of LCs in each squad.

Third point would be typhoons are the only support available that is cheap. You should take three and I never know whether multimelta or heavy bolter is better on them. I have tried multimelta but then just kept myself more than 24'' to hide behind preds and shoot missiles.

Fourth point would be the rest of the codex is expensive so you will have to bite the bullet. You require range and mobility so I usually go for preds and dreads. Vindis run away too quickly. Bike squads are good for DWA but you do not want to it that much and their scout move isn't that far, also they are not killy enough and give a soft target.

Dualwing I find requires a fairly large number of points to work. If you take more than 6 bikes than you should really think about Sammael.

Your wish is my command...and all that

Personally, I think death wing is a devastating army at 1500pts.

Try going 4th/ss + cml and the sarge with a chain fist in some of the squads.

I don't think death wing is good at anything but 1500pts however.

At higher point totals, vanilla assault termie spam or gk termie spam is better.

Despite the obvious appeal of an army made mostly of storm shield terminators, a poster over on the B&C just came in 2nd out of ~100 players with a Dark Angels list that only had two shields per squad. This was his list:

HQ:
Belial with TH&SS

Troops
Deathwing "command" squad, all TH&SS, apothecary (with CML) and Deathwing banner.
4 x the same:
5 Termies, 2 x TH&SS, 1 CML/fist/Stormbolter, Sarge with powersword/stormbolter and chainfist+Stormbolter.

Fast attack
Ravenwing Attack Squad, 2 x Meltagun, powerfist, Meltabomb and an attackbike with Multimelta.
Landspeeder Multimelta and typhoon missile launcher
Landspeeder Multimelta and typhoon missile launcher

I think it's 1750. Here's the link to his report, hope linking to another forum's okay:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=240922

I would imagine Draigowing would be a far superior choice to Deathwing.

Nemesis Force Weapons are complete line breakers against multi-wound interference. Does Deathwing have access to lots of force weapons? If not, I imagine a Grotesque wall or TWC wall stopping them dead in their tracks while a smart opponent buys time to react.

Edit: And "Psy" ammo is amazing.