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Hi Dakka,

We all know about GW's Finecast money-getting efforts, but a quick peruse of their online store's IG section tonight had me in stitches of laughter.

Castellan Creed...£10.50
Colour Sergeant Kell...£12.50

That's £23.00 kids, for two infantry minis not so long ago packaged together and cast in white metal for far, far less.

The company are becoming masters of urine extraction. No wonder the indie sculptors are sparkling.

Oh look, it's this thread again.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. There are plenty of other models that can be used as Creed and Kell. Hell, buy the CCS and kitbash them!

Look on ebay for the old metal ones if it bothers you so much. This really is a pointless thread.

The 'hard cheese' and 'don't like, don't buy' arguments are fair enough, as for the 'Not this again' well, apologies from a Dakka noob.

I don't agree however that my point is invalid, simply because fellow board members choose to accept what is an exorbitant fee for what amounts to very little resin and plastic.

Kitbashing special characters is a sound strategy, but with GW tournies, shops and competitions refusing to accept minis which appear any less than paid-for GW minis, should I really accept a situation where I can only display my innovations and interpretation of the fluff either at home, among friends or on the internet?

if you have kitbashed, by default the model is GW(as in the parts were GW) and as such they really have no reason to kick you out. Then there are the loads of units that have no model and require a scratch build.

You act as if other companies don't tend to charge 10 bucks for singular characters.

The most hilariously overdone Finecast price increase was Archaon. He is now in the same price band as things like Leman Russ's.

I almost bought them the other day. $28 and $33 for me, but Creed was miscast and he was the only one left on the shelf.

I love my country. Most venemous spiders, most dangerous snakes, everything in the water wants to kill you, most expensive 40k.

Great deal of sympathy for the OP.
Ever notice how paints/paintbrushes tend to be, while not reasonably priced, much closer to reality than the models.
Know why? It's because other shops sell paints/brushes/spray paints.
Problem is, the warhammer hobby isn't big enough to attract the attention of the monopoly-busting authorities.
I was thinking of doing a little research on this in the near future, actually.

Joey wrote:Great deal of sympathy for the OP.
Ever notice how paints/paintbrushes tend to be, while not reasonably priced, much closer to reality than the models.
Know why? It's because other shops sell paints/brushes/spray paints.
Problem is, the warhammer hobby isn't big enough to attract the attention of the monopoly-busting authorities.
I was thinking of doing a little research on this in the near future, actually.

You can't claim its a Monopoly because its simply an IP line.

GW doesn't have the market on Table Top Wargames cornered, its just that we are loyal to a particular game which they have exclusive IP rights to and always will.

Namica wrote:You act as if other companies don't tend to charge 10 bucks for singular characters.

That's not 10 bucks, that's 10 pounds, $15 to $20 depending on the exchange rate.

By contrast these are from Reaper, both about $6 and both are models most people will only buy one of.

Namica wrote:You act as if other companies don't tend to charge 10 bucks for singular characters.

Luckily now days there are online websites for price reference.

GW is pretty up there thats for sure

Grey Templar wrote:

Joey wrote:Great deal of sympathy for the OP.
Ever notice how paints/paintbrushes tend to be, while not reasonably priced, much closer to reality than the models.
Know why? It's because other shops sell paints/brushes/spray paints.
Problem is, the warhammer hobby isn't big enough to attract the attention of the monopoly-busting authorities.
I was thinking of doing a little research on this in the near future, actually.

You can't claim its a Monopoly because its simply an IP line.

GW doesn't have the market on Table Top Wargames cornered, its just that we are loyal to a particular game which they have exclusive IP rights to and always will.

Well, not entirely. If it's that easy to claim Intellectual Property rights on models, Games Workshop owes a hell of a lot of money to the Tolkein estate
There's no reason a company couldn't make models that were almost entirely similar to GW ones without infringing IP.
"Space Troopers with zit guns"=IG with lasguns
"Super Space Troopers with boom guns"=Space Marines.
the only thing that GW *really* has copyright on is special charecters and rule sets.

Joey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Joey wrote:Great deal of sympathy for the OP.
Ever notice how paints/paintbrushes tend to be, while not reasonably priced, much closer to reality than the models.
Know why? It's because other shops sell paints/brushes/spray paints.
Problem is, the warhammer hobby isn't big enough to attract the attention of the monopoly-busting authorities.
I was thinking of doing a little research on this in the near future, actually.

You can't claim its a Monopoly because its simply an IP line.

GW doesn't have the market on Table Top Wargames cornered, its just that we are loyal to a particular game which they have exclusive IP rights to and always will.

Well, not entirely. If it's that easy to claim Intellectual Property rights on models, Games Workshop owes a hell of a lot of money to the Tolkein estate
There's no reason a company couldn't make models that were almost entirely similar to GW ones without infringing IP.
"Space Troopers with zit guns"=IG with lasguns
"Super Space Troopers with boom guns"=Space Marines.
the only thing that GW *really* has copyright on is special charecters and rule sets.

GW does pay money to the Tolkien estate for the use of the work Ork, Orc, and for all the LotR models they produce.

LOTR models, yes. They pay money for the use of "ork" though, seriously?
And "elves"?
And halflings?

jots wrote:The 'hard cheese' and 'don't like, don't buy' arguments are fair enough, as for the 'Not this again' well, apologies from a Dakka noob.

Don't worry about it. Some people really want to get back to their "Imperium of Man vs. Voltron?" threads.

As always, go through independent retailers for a discount, but yes, Games Workshop is extraordinarily overpriced for what it provides. I think their business model's pretty horrid, but that's me.

Joey wrote:LOTR models, yes. They pay money for the use of "ork" though, seriously?
And "elves"?
And halflings?

only Orc is copyrighted, Elves and Halflings are public domain.

Joey wrote:LOTR models, yes. They pay money for the use of "ork" though, seriously?
And "elves"?
And halflings?

No.

Orc is actually an old English word, as are elfs.

Hobbit is in question Tolkein thought he had coined it but he later found a reference to hobbit as an old word for an earth spirit.

In any case no one can claim ownership of an idea or a word (barring trademarks, another issue entirely). The Tolkein estate, New Line etc can only claim the specific orcs they created, not the whole idea of orcs.

So no. GW does not pay anyone for orcs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

Joey wrote:LOTR models, yes. They pay money for the use of "ork" though, seriously?
And "elves"?
And halflings?

only Orc is copyrighted, Elves and Halflings are public domain.

No.

Concepts cannot be copyrighted only specific applications of those concepts.

Orcs are not under copyright anyone can use the word and idea.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Joey wrote:LOTR models, yes. They pay money for the use of "ork" though, seriously?
And "elves"?
And halflings?

No.

Orc is actually an old English word, as are elfs.

Hobbit is in question Tolkein thought he had coined it but he later found a reference to hobbit as an old word for an earth spirit.

In any case no one can claim ownership of an idea or a word (barring trademarks, another issue entirely). The Tolkein estate, New Line etc can only claim the specific orcs they created, not the whole idea of orcs.

So no. GW does not pay anyone for orcs.

So my point stands?
Anyone could manufacture pseudo space marines and call them Super Dooper Troopers, without mention to any Games Workshop product whatsoever, and we as gamers could take them home and play them using Space Marine rules, yes?

They pay for the use of the concept is what I meant. I didn't type it in as many words though.

Grey Templar wrote:They pay for the use of the concept is what I meant. I didn't type it in as many words though.

No, no they don't.

they pay for the use of the copyrighted characters from the novels and movies but anyone can make an orc just as anyone can make a space soldier.

But keep in mind that copying GW artwork (as some not-primarch models do) is a copyright infringement. Anyone can make space soldiers but as soon as they look like space marines or IG they may be copyright violations.

Now when does a guy in a trench coat and peaked cap become a copy of GW's copyrighted Commissar artwork and models? Unfortunately it may take a court case to settle that.

So the best bet is always to make something new rather than see how close you can get without crossing the line.

Joey wrote:Anyone could manufacture pseudo space marines and call them Super Dooper Troopers, without mention to any Games Workshop product whatsoever, and we as gamers could take them home and play them using Space Marine rules, yes?

Yes, but they would still have to look different. You can't just churn stuff out that looks just like GW Space Marines and call them something else expecting to get away with it, GW have rights over the 'look' of their own space marines.

Ah this old barrel of chestnuts. GW Finecast prices are ridiculous, especially as resin models are apparently much cheaper to cast than metal ones, yet GW put up their prices by 20%. Obviously with FW resin you're paying for the incredible quality of the models, but with GW...well.

GW used to be able to get away with charging higher than average prices because they had the better, more detailed models. Now many other companies are on a level setting they no longer have that edge. I can pick up 54 good quality Napoleonic hardp lastics from Victrix or 25 British Infantry men, excellent designed but a complete to assemble. I recently ordered a model, along with some paints & stuff, from a company, of a really nice Thirty Years War/English Civil War matchlock marksman for £4. If it's anything as good as the image of it then I will be very well pleased with it. GW just have a terrible knee-jerk reaction to drops in sales - I saw it when I worked for them in the local store. Drop in sales nationwide? Yank prices up to cover losses. Alienates more people, so loss in sales, yank up prices. If they lowered their prices I'm sure they'd actually make far more money - old vets would get back into it, parents would be happier to spend money on the models for their children, those on a tight budget would be more willing to buy models - win-win for all, but they still go about this bizarre strategy of running themselves into the ground and this Finecast thing just seems to be compounding it further.
I know of 4 seperate people who have returned Finecast models because of casting faults, one chap had to send back the replacement of a replacement which he had recieved to replace the original (think the model was Creed). Terrible, terrible idea of theirs.

Joey wrote:Ever notice how paints/paintbrushes tend to be, while not reasonably priced, much closer to reality than the models.

Except the paints & brushes are abysmal, and don't get me started on the basing kits. I don't know anyone who uses GW brushes - I personally use em-4-miniatures ones, but during the summer, whilst painting some Guard, I needed a couple of washes & metallics (only decent part of the Citadel range) and decided, what the hell, new fine detail & standard brush. There is a mark of boltgun paint on my far wall and the standard brush is somewhere down the back of my bed where I threw it at the wall. It had split and frayed with the very first application of paint. Waste of money when professional kolinsky sable brushes are the same price & last 'forever'. Chap I know who paints multiple armies at any one time to a very high standard, across multiple gaming systems, worked out that if he stuck with GW brushes he'd go through 4 a night - £16 a night, £112 a week on brushes. They're terrible, don't use 'em! Get kolinsky sable ones.

jots wrote:Kitbashing special characters is a sound strategy, but with GW tournies, shops and competitions refusing to accept minis which appear any less than paid-for GW minis, should I really accept a situation where I can only display my innovations and interpretation of the fluff either at home, among friends or on the internet?

From memory the official GW tournament guidelines insist that each and every model should be at least 50% GW model.

Yeah but it's got to be incredibly loose. Everything about them is based on ancient Greco-Romans and medieval knights, it wouldn't be hard at all to combine other elements to create things that are instantly recognizable to us as "space marines", while not infringing copyright laws.
Hell, if you wanted to be REALLY safe, just make Roman Legionaries with guns and grenades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Except the paints & brushes are abysmal, and don't get me started on the basing kits. I don't know anyone who uses GW brushes - I personally use em-4-miniatures ones, but during the summer, whilst painting some Guard, I needed a couple of washes & metallics (only decent part of the Citadel range) and decided, what the hell, new fine detail & standard brush. There is a mark of boltgun paint on my far wall and the standard brush is somewhere down the back of my bed where I threw it at the wall. It had split and frayed with the very first application of paint. Waste of money when professional kolinsky sable brushes are the same price & last 'forever'. Chap I know who paints multiple armies at any one time to a very high standard, across multiple gaming systems, worked out that if he stuck with GW brushes he'd go through 4 a night - £16 a night, £112 a week on brushes. They're terrible, don't use 'em! Get kolinsky sable ones.

jots wrote:Kitbashing special characters is a sound strategy, but with GW tournies, shops and competitions refusing to accept minis which appear any less than paid-for GW minis, should I really accept a situation where I can only display my innovations and interpretation of the fluff either at home, among friends or on the internet?

From memory the official GW tournament guidelines insist that each and every model should be at least 50% GW model.

Very interesting post overall. Where exactly would I get brushes like that on the British high street? I know the spray cans for one are rubbish, I paid a fiver for a can of black that it turned out had less than half what the GW one did...more fool me for not checking the volume first, I guess. Also wouldn't there be issues with paints "fitting" in? If I've already started painting my army in, say, Dark Flesh, won't switching to a generic "dark red" make those ones look way different?

Just to clear it up,

the Price Increase that happened was actually the normal one that GW has at that time of year.

They just had the incredible stupidity to have it at the same time as the Finecast release.

But didnt GW also stated resin is way cheaper?

So no chance of it evening out? : )

Joey wrote:Very interesting post overall. Where exactly would I get brushes like that on the British high street? I know the spray cans for one are rubbish, I paid a fiver for a can of black that it turned out had less than half what the GW one did...more fool me for not checking the volume first, I guess. Also wouldn't there be issues with paints "fitting" in? If I've already started painting my army in, say, Dark Flesh, won't switching to a generic "dark red" make those ones look way different?

Most independant wargaming stores & online webstores will stock kolinsky sable brushes. I use either Wayland Gaming (long delays on delivery) or Maelstrom Gaming (both are webstores) for stuff. For paints the Vallejo Game Colour series are essentially the same as GW ones & they even do a few colours which GW no longer have as part of their range. They are far higher quality than GW paints (except the metallics I find), with a better consistency, come in 'dropper' necked bottles rather than flip-top pots (and you get double the amount!) and are also cheaper by a little bit.

For sprays I use matt black car spray from Halfords - £5 for a big 'un, lasts for ages and the beauty is that as it dries the paint shrinks, so even if you coat a model a little too heavily it should be fine because the paint contracts, leaving a smooth surface & the detail clear to the eye. Perfect for the shallow detail on FW resins.

Thats the stuff I use but other people might have even better recommendations for you.

LunaHound wrote:But didnt GW also stated resin is way cheaper?

So no chance of it evening out? : )

Probably not.

the price increase was accross the board, not just the stuff that became Finecast.

LunaHound wrote:But didnt GW also stated resin is way cheaper?

So no chance of it evening out? : )

The material is cheaper, but it wasn't the main reason for the change. The main reason was to go to a meterial with a stable price, as metal prices fluctuate due to supply and demand. Resin is a made compound, so as long as their supplier keeps making it, all they need to look out for is their supplier raising their price. However, definitely would have increased on the production line. For example, molds for resin wear out faster, so more molds need to be made and cycled into use more often.

Moving to finecast wasn't about reducing prices, it was about moving away from a material with a fluctuating price.

But GW switched from more expensive metal to resiny plastic and still put the price up.
Now they have also halved the contents of a blister and also upped the price.

Mantic switched from metal to plasticky resin with some undead cav at the same time and doubled the contents of the box and kept the price the same.