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sup, i started trying to describe something but I figure a picture is much easier.

50% of the y axis of the dreadnaught is not visable, however, a good majority of the unit itself is clearly visible.
My BA opponant insisted this would mean a cover save, I reasoned that a majority of the body is NOT in cover, therefore no cover saves. Apparently though, whenever he plays a walker, they have all kinds of bs special rules.
What say you?

No cover save, as it is 50% of the facing - which is not a "cylinder" described by the widest parts of the model but the actual facing.

As nos says it is 50% of a facing however with walkers in general we have the issue of how do we determine what that 50% is, do we count the bulk only to do we consider the legs part of it? I would count in the legs and not the bulk myself but That is me.

Well it's considerably easier to hit the hull than those spindly legs.
Problem is, unlike a tank hull where you can say "okay, that gun is in the middle and i can see it from there, so i can see 50% of the hull", it can be quite complex for walkers.

Exactly, I believe one of the issues with walkers is that IIRC the legs are a part of the hull.

I count half of the height of the walker for simplicity's sake, rather than trying to figure out half of the mass. So in the example given, the walker would be in cover.

The other way lies madness.

insaniak wrote:I count half of the height of the walker for simplicity's sake, rather than trying to figure out half of the mass. So in the example given, the walker would be in cover.

The other way lies madness.

Agreed.. your playing a game.. You could say maybe for him to roll a +5.. but why squabble over it. Give him the +4 and hope he gives it to you on your next close one..

Nos is right about the facing, but I'd say it is close enough to grant the 4+.

At very least I'd roll off for it, or give them a 5+

In a friendly game, he has a 5+ cover.

In a tourney style game, no cover. 50% of the hull (the legs and torso in this case) isn't in cover.

My Rule book is in my car right now, but it does say in the case of not being able to tell if 50% of the model is obscured or not, to reduce the cover save by 1, making it 5+. By the way, what is obscuring the Walker? Is it infantry, cause that is a whole different case, and the Walker would get no cover save.

never mind. reading failure.

NO, not at all. WHAT is blocking you only tells you what cover save you would receive, NOT whether it gets to block you or not.

There is NOTHING that stops infantry from providing cover to a tank.

The rule is that half of the side of the vehicle you are shooting at has to be hidden. So with a Dread like this, where the upper body is significantly more massive than the legs, it really has to be covered more that halfway up.

It can be a little difficult to judge; so if there's a question, as a rule in a casual game I probably just let my opponent take it, and in a strict game 4+ it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:NO, not at all. WHAT is blocking you only tells you what cover save you would receive, NOT whether it gets to block you or not.

This part isn't entirely true. Swarms can never provide cover saves to Monstrous Creatures or Vehicles. Of course good luck actually getting a swarm to block 50%+ LoS to a Monstrous Creature or Vehicle.

insaniak wrote:I count half of the height of the walker for simplicity's sake, rather than trying to figure out half of the mass. So in the example given, the walker would be in cover.

The other way lies madness.

Madness indeed Milord. I doth concur.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forum jack(?) what weopon is that on the dread? Hev Bolter?

insaniak wrote:I count half of the height of the walker for simplicity's sake, rather than trying to figure out half of the mass. So in the example given, the walker would be in cover.

The other way lies madness.

I agree with the possessed cat. "All hail Possessed Cat!"

lordrevege wrote:
Forum jack(?) what weopon is that on the dread? Hev Bolter?

Frag cannon. It's a BA thing.

I agree with Insaniak. If you try splitting hairs that fine in the other direction in a friendly game, you're just asking for a sock filled with nickels to the back of the head. If you do it in a tourney, you're just asking to have your sportsmanship score torpedoed. (And you'd deserve it.)

Why would you get your sportsmanship dinged (yuck, terrible system!) for following the rules?

The dreadnought is NOT covered anywhere NEAR 50%. It is VERY simple to see that. 1/3rd at best.

Jimsolo wrote:I agree with Insaniak. If you try splitting hairs that fine in the other direction in a friendly game, you're just asking for a sock filled with nickels to the back of the head. If you do it in a tourney, you're just asking to have your sportsmanship score torpedoed. (And you'd deserve it.)

Just for the record, none of that was agreeing with me.

I play it the way I do for simplicity. I have zero problem with someone wanting to be a little more precise about it.

Dinging someone on sports because they don't want to use your house rule instead of a reasonably clear (if sometimes tricky to apply) actual rule would be pretty much the exact opposite of how I play the game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Why would you get your sportsmanship dinged (yuck, terrible system!) for following the rules?

The dreadnought is NOT covered anywhere NEAR 50%. It is VERY simple to see that. 1/3rd at best.

Because overzealous little snards try to abuse open ended rules to death.

Besides its half the height of the walker, thus he gets a cover save. If its that big of a deal roll off for it.

Sorry, where is "half the height" listed as a criteria for getting 50% cover?

Oh wait, there isnt. 50% of facing is 50% of facing. That Dreadnought is not covered anywhere NEAR 50%.

You seem a terrible sportsman yourself if you would ding someone for playing a very clear rule correctly.

The rule is 50% or more of the model is behind cover. Covering just the legs is not 50% or more of the model, regardless if it's "half the height of the walker" or not. By the rules he doesn't get a cover save.

And if enforcing the rules makes one an "overzealous little snard" I'm glad I've chosen to never play at an event that uses sportmanship scores.

I dont think it should have cover in a friendly game or a competitive game. What's the point in getting accustomed to incorrect rules? The majority of the model isnt covered which goes against the rule of how vehicles get cover saves.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:What's the point in getting accustomed to incorrect rules?

That really depends on where you normally play.

Most of my games are at home, against people who approach the game from pretty much the same mindset as I do. So we choose to interpret 'half the vehicle' as 'half the height' because it is easier to determine than 'half the body mass'...

By comparison, try getting any two players to look at that dreadnought on the table over an intervening obstacle and agree on exactly what constitutes half of its mass.

Pg 62, col 1, par 3, line 9, VEHICLES AND COVER - Obscured Targets: "Just like with units of several vehicles, if you're not sure whether the vehicle is 50% in cover or not, simply modify it's save by -1."

In a casual game I'd go for a 5+ save... In a competitive environment simply concede the save or ask the TO (personally I'd suggest a 5+ save even in such a situation but only if the adversary is totally in favour because IIRC the 5+ simplification is valid only for non-vehicle models) because IMHO it's very difficult to define a clear rule... For example I think that the dreddie in the example is not in cover because more than 50% is clearly visible but if you take the eight of the model as a factor things change... I think this is another example of situation that cannot be clearly solved by RAW...

insaniak wrote:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:What's the point in getting accustomed to incorrect rules?

That really depends on where you normally play.

Most of my games are at home, against people who approach the game from pretty much the same mindset as I do. So we choose to interpret 'half the vehicle' as 'half the height' because it is easier to determine than 'half the body mass'...

By comparison, try getting any two players to look at that dreadnought on the table over an intervening obstacle and agree on exactly what constitutes half of its mass.

Haha Getting two players to easily agree on something sometimes seems impossible. I know what youre saying though and it does make sense. I just feel like it goes against the rules. Maybe im too strict. Might lower my blood pressure to drink some Earl Grey and relax.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Haha Getting two players to easily agree on something sometimes seems impossible. I know what youre saying though and it does make sense. I just feel like it goes against the rules. Maybe im too strict. Might lower my blood pressure to drink some Earl Grey and relax.

Getting a player to agree to a rule that is clearly written is hard enough. Having people argue blue in the face that it's "50% of the height", despite the fact that they have made this up, is really bloody irritating.
Hey I tell you what, my units can run AND shoot now. Because I've decided that's how the rules work. And if you disagree with me you're being a rule fascist.

Yeah well, Joey, all my guns are Strength D, AP1, with unlimited range and do not need line of sight anyway. And they're twin-linked.