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okay so i played a game today and rolled my d3 i got a 4 lets say. I got a direct hit (in line of sight) when i went to make my second shot he told me that it always flips. Okay....i thought that if i cant see you or if I CHOOSE to fire barrage it does the flip thing. He then told me that even if i get a direct hit it still flips, but anyway you want...again, i thought a hit means it hits in the same place. is this right, or should i of knocked this doofus out?

The weapons that the manticore has on it's profile are listed as ordnance barrage D3. If you choose to fire an ordnance barrage weapon as direct fire it is counted as an ordnance weapon. That means you have to roll scatter die and 2d6 for each shot that you get, if you should fire direct line of sight.

One other thing, any time a hit is rolled on a barrage weapon's secondary shot, the marker may be placed overlapping or even in the same place as your original marker.

so i was right then huh?

You were almost right. OK, when firing Barrage it only 'flips' on a scatter, ie you must place the blast marker touching the edge of the original blast marker as indicated by the arrow on the scatter die. If you roll a 'Hit' with the scatter die, then you may place it so that it is touching ANY of the previously placed blast markers, to include in the exact same location (ie directly on top of one of them).

So it doesn't have to be in the same place, but can be. Got it?

so basically i was right with the addition of I can place it anywhere around contact of the original marker OR over it, as well as directly over another maker/ over it if for example i had 3 shots i get a hit, a scatter, and a hit.

No, you can only place it over the initial marker, not another scattered marker from intermediate shots.

I think this has been covered before and the conclusion if I remember correctly was that the multple barrage rule never comes into play since it specifically refers to multiple units and the Manticore is a single unit firing multiple barrage shots.

Try a search for it and see what you find.

No, the conclusion is that you DO use the multiple barrage rule, as it is the closest fit to the situaiton. Technically there is no way to fire the weapon otherwise.

okay. so I can indeed put the marker over the original if i get another direct hit then right? (this was the big issue i had with someone i played against) OR i can choose to place it around the original right? (the guy was preaching that even if i get a direct hit i can only place it around the original and not land another overlapped direct hit)

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you can only place it over the initial marker, not another scattered marker from intermediate shots.

Nope. If you have three or more markers being placed and roll a hit with the third or later marker, then you can place it over any marker. Only on scattering markers are you restricted to the initial marker.

Page 32, multiple Barrages:
"If a hit is rolled, the firing player places the marker so that it touches any part of any marker in the salvo that has already been placed."

Kasrkin52 wrote:okay. so I can indeed put the marker over the original if i get another direct hit then right? (this was the big issue i had with someone i played against) OR i can choose to place it around the original right? (the guy was preaching that even if i get a direct hit i can only place it around the original and not land another overlapped direct hit)

Yes, if you get a hit with the second or later marker, you can place it touching, on top of, anywhere you want as long as it touches a previously placed marker from that salvo somewhere.

@don_mondo thx for clearing this up. also the guy then started to state that the manticore still cant get a direct hit after the first initial one.....a guy who doesnt even play IG. then he goes on saying it was faq'd.......last i checked the only faq was for the deathstrike...can anyone clear this up?

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, the conclusion is that you DO use the multiple barrage rule, as it is the closest fit to the situaiton.

That's really strange. Especially since the rules for multiple barrages (pg. 32) explicitly tells you 'If a unit has more than one barrage weapon'. To my knowledge, the Manticore does not have multiple barrage weapons. It has one that sometimes fires multiple times. The same way an autocannon fires multiple times. And you resolve it in the same way, once for each shot. This is further backed up by that it is considered a single weapon for 'Weapon destroyed' results and it would be illegal for a model to fire multiple ordnance weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Technically there is no way to fire the weapon otherwise.

Of course there is. It follows the same rules as an Earthshaker Cannon but instead of being Ordnance barrage 1. It's Ordnance barrage d3. The only difference being the number of shots that are resolved.

I agree that it would make more sense for it to use the multiple barrages rule, but according to my interpretation of the RAW, it does not. A squadron consisting of three Basilisks would
use the multiple barrages rule, but since the Manticore only fires ONE weapon it does, IMHO, not.

I'm not trying to tell you how to play your games, but I would like to understand what you base your opinion on. I might be mistaken, but I have yet to see an argument backed in rules to support your position. No matter how logical and reasonable it would seem.

Thanks.

There are no rules teling you how to fire multiple barrages from one weapon, which is the point.

berglin, one thing you're missing is that barrage or not, it fires blast markers, which means it will NOT follow the rules for an autocannon. Instead it would follow the rules for multiple blasts. And guess what? There are no rules covering how to handle a single weapon that fires multiple blast markers, either direct or barrage, since the rules for multiple blasts uses the same phrasing as multiple barrages
Page 30, Multiple Blasts:

"If a unit is firing more than one blast weapon"

So yeah, Thunderfire cannon, no rules on how to fire it. Executioner cannon, no rules on how to fire it. Manticore, no rules on how to fire it. etc etc etc.

However, we do have one indication on how GW views the question. Eldar FAQ, single weapon (Tempest Launcher), multiple blasts, resolved as multiple barrage. Given that, it only makes sense to use the mode of fire, whether direct or barrage, to determine blast marker placement. otherwise, none of those weapons can be used at all as there are no rules for multiple blasts from a single weapon.

@kasrkin. No, there is no FAQ. If he says there is, tell him to put up or shut up and show you the FAQ.

don_mondo wrote:berglin, one thing you're missing is that barrage or not, it fires blast markers, which means it will NOT follow the rules for an autocannon. Instead it would follow the rules for multiple blasts. And guess what? There are no rules covering how to handle a single weapon that fires multiple blast markers, either direct or barrage, since the rules for multiple blasts uses the same phrasing as multiple barrages

Hmm, interesting point. The way I see it is that there's nothing special about it. You just resolve more shots. The rules for multiple blasts/barrages are a modification to the normal firing rules which tell you to simply redo the firing step for each 'x' that follows the weapon profile. Heavy 1, do it once, Heavy 2, do it twice. Whether it's barrage, twinlinked or melta doesn't matter for this. You fire the weapon 'x' times.

If there where no rules for multiple anything, the only way to follow as many (all?) rules as possible would be to resolve multiple barrages/blasts as individual shots. Please correct me if I'm wrong here but I can't remember reading anything anywhere that would make this interpretation illegal. Then the rules for multiple anything tells me that the rules are not applicable for the Manticore. So I don't use them.

IMHO, this is the only way to break as few rules as possible. The 'multiple' rules forbids me to apply it to the Manticore. Yes, it doesn't make sense, but there are a lot of rules and corner cases that doesn't.

What makes it illegal is that there are no rules allowing you to do so, and a FAQ telling you that another weapon with multiple barrage shots should be resolved as a multiple barrage

So youre going against precedent AND making rules up anyway, so why not follow the FAQ and sense in doing so?

I have been laughed at on other forums for using FAQs from other codex material for showing a precedent but I have always believed in using precedent to set an example for other rules that exist similar to it. In this case I would have agreed with berglin but as the precedent exists showing 1 multiple blast weapon existing that follows the rules for multiple barrage I would switch that tune because the precedent is there and unless GW FAQs differently it should be followed.

Esssentially - you are making up rules either way, but at least one way GW have already ruled.

Yep, since it's not covered in the rules, might as well use the GW FAQ ruling across the board for all similar situations. Still leaves direct fire multiple blast weapons out in the cold without a ruling, but oh well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you can only place it over the initial marker, not another scattered marker from intermediate shots.

wrong its touchin any of the previous shots

I think the key here is in the description of the weapon.

I UNDERSTAND THAT I AM NOT QUOTING ANY RULE.

The weapon is a single rocket that has a cluster munition.
Cluster munitions separate just before impact and therefore the blast markers should be close to each other.

If each munition scattered separately they would have to split off from the rocket early in its flight path and continue under its own power to its impact zone.
That would give you D3 individually scattering markers.


The description of the weapon makes it more logical for the mechanic to be the the multiple barrage rule.

I know however that some of the GW writers are strangers to logic.

I know however that some of the GW writers are strangers to logic.

Or forgot to put Cannot Fire Directly asterisk there like they did the Deathstrike Missile. ::Sarcasm::

Reaper Exarch tempest launcher FAQ seems to be the closest situation, but there are some minor differences. Tempest launcher is direct fire and has a fixed number of shots, unlike the manticore, but they are both a single weapon shot (unlike, say, a squad of long fangs). In my experience they've always been handled as a multiple barrage.

Deuseviscerator wrote:Reaper Exarch tempest launcher FAQ seems to be the closest situation, but there are some minor differences. Tempest launcher is direct fire and has a fixed number of shots, unlike the manticore, but they are both a single weapon shot (unlike, say, a squad of long fangs). In my experience they've always been handled as a multiple barrage.

Ummm, no, the Reaper tempest launcher is Barrage........................ See the G36" range. G indicates Barrage. That's why it's handled as a multiple Barrage, and not multiple blasts.

As I said before, best way to deal with it is to use whatever the mode of fire is to determine scatter rules. If it's firing multiple shots in Barrage, use multiple Barrage. if it's firing multiple shots direct, use multiple blasts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:What makes it illegal is that there are no rules allowing you to do so, and a FAQ telling you that another weapon with multiple barrage shots should be resolved as a multiple barrage

So youre going against precedent AND making rules up anyway, so why not follow the FAQ and sense in doing so?

I'm sorry. I don't understand this. In my opinion there doesn't have to be any rules that describes multiple blasts from the same weapon, since you resolve them just as you would a 'normal' weapon. The only difference being that it's resolved using the blast rules. Heavy 1 blast, resolve one shot. Heavy 2 blast, resolve two shots. First one blast, then once more. In exactly the same way. Why does there have to be a special rule that allows me to do this? Would the same reasoning apply to a Heavy 2 Melta? There are no rules explicitly telling me how to resolve that, so is it an illegal weapon that cannot be fired?

I fail to see what rules I'm making up. I try to follow the ones that do exist and try not to break any of them. In my opinion, my way is the only way to break as few (if any) rules as possible. What rules am I breaking by following this method? I know the ruleset is permissive but I can't see what makes a blast profile so different from any other weapon special rule that I need special permission to use it more than once for a single weapon that says in its profile to use it more than once.

I'm guessing the same reasoning would apply to the orc rokkit weapon that is Heavy 2 blast? Is that also resolved using the multiple blasts rule, which explicitly tells you it does not apply to a single weapon. (And in this case it would make sense to resolve them separately as they are two separate rockets, fired by an someone who isn't exactly known for his accuracy and equipment reliability.)

I would just like to point out that I agree on the fluff for the Manticore and placing them together stuff, but that's a whole other can of worms.

I'm sorry but I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. Thanks for taking the time and explain your point of view.

The rules for blasts dont cover multiple shots, thats why.

There just arent any multiple blast from the same weapon. Oh, and what ork rocket that is blast? Thought they were all S8....

Its not just me that has pointed this out, by the way. Note the question about Eldar Tempest launcher - even GW know there arent rules covering this!

nosferatu1001 wrote:The rules for blasts dont cover multiple shots, thats why.

There just arent any multiple blast from the same weapon. Oh, and what ork rocket that is blast? Thought they were all S8....

Its not just me that has pointed this out, by the way. Note the question about Eldar Tempest launcher - even GW know there arent rules covering this!

Actually I can name 3 weapons from one codex that have multiple blasts when firing. First is the Typhoon Missile launcher firing frag (Heavy 2 blast), Next is the Cyclone Missile Launcher again when firing frags (Heavy 2 Blast), the last is the Thunderfire cannon which is a heavy 4 blast.

There actually are rules for how the Typhoon Missile launcher works (just using that as a random weapon with multiple blasts). First we look at the weapon it's profile is R- 48" S-4 AP-6 Heavy 2, Blast. That tells us that the weapon fires two shots with the blast characteristic. First we roll to hit, (which is determined by Scatter and 2d6-BS as compared to 7-BS) hits are worked out based on the final resting spot of the blast marker. Now as page 27 tells us there is no holding back on firepower we follow the same formula to hit. After the hits from said weapon are tallied up wound rolls are made.

When you look at page 27 the paragraph in the middle of the page talks about a scatter laser being heavy 3. That means it has 3 shots that it fires, according to the rules and 3 rolls to hit are made each time you fire the weapon. The same holds true for the Typhoon Missile Launcher. It is a heavy 2 weapon, that means it fires two shots which require to hit rolls. Each shot has the Blast characteristic, so it just follow a different means of rolling to hit each shot.

Are there specific rules that tell us how to fire weapons that use more than one blast marker? No. Are there rules that when used together provide us with the way to handle firing of such a weapon? Absolutely, and those rules do not break any other rules either. We are just following the rules laid out for us multiple times to reach a final conclusion.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

There actually are rules for how the Typhoon Missile launcher works (just using that as a random weapon with multiple blasts). First we look at the weapon it's profile is R- 48" S-4 AP-6 Heavy 2, Blast. That tells us that the weapon fires two shots with the blast characteristic. First we roll to hit, (which is determined by Scatter and 2d6-BS as compared to 7-BS) hits are worked out based on the final resting spot of the blast marker. Now as page 27 tells us there is no holding back on firepower we follow the same formula to hit. After the hits from said weapon are tallied up wound rolls are made.
.

If only the rules actually said that. But they don't. They tell us to do what you describe when we have multiple weapons in the same unit each firing a single blast. Nowhere do the rules in the BGB reference how to handle any weapon, direct or barrage, that fires multiple blasts. Do they all use multiple blast rules? Do they all use multiple Barrage rules? Or does direct use multiple blast and barrage use multiple barrage (Correct answer, IMO)?

And yes, there are a lot of weapons out there that fire multiple blasts. Be nice if GW would step up and settle this once and for all.

As above, Lone Dragoon. If you'd read the actual rules closer, you will spot that there arent any rules for what you describe. The BRB rules do not consider it.

Given Don already mentioned the TFire cannon, it shouldnt be a surprise that we're aware of it....

don_mondo wrote:If only the rules actually said that. But they don't. They tell us to do what you describe when we have multiple weapons in the same unit each firing a single blast. Nowhere do the rules in the BGB reference how to handle any weapon, direct or barrage, that fires multiple blasts. Do they all use multiple blast rules? Do they all use multiple Barrage rules? Or does direct use multiple blast and barrage use multiple barrage (Correct answer, IMO)?

And yes, there are a lot of weapons out there that fire multiple blasts. Be nice if GW would step up and settle this once and for all.

By utter strict RAW, I feel it's ambiguous as to whether there are rules for how it specifically works. The reason I say that, is that it's perfectly within the rules that I laid out since the weapon isn't a "blast weapon" it is a shot from the weapon with the "blast characteristic." The only difference is needing a scatter+2d6 to hit as compared to a BS test to determine where the shot lands, and a blast marker is used to determine how many hits are made. Rolling to wound is the same, checking LoS the same, checking range is the same, and heck taking saves is the same. The only difference is that shots with the blast characteristic require different to hit rolls. We have a rule saying we can take multiple shots with a weapon, but there is no clarification for how multiple shots with the blast characteristic works. In other words, we have permission to fire the number of shots listed on the profile. We have rules for how shots with the blast characteristic work. A rule telling how multiple shots with the blast characteristic works would be superfluous actually.

People don't need someone to draw them a map to go out the door of their house and down to the road. So why do we need step by step instructions on how to fire multiple shots (with a special characteristic such as blast) from a weapon when we have rules laid out for multiple shot weapons? We simply make additional to hit rolls based on how it is listed in the weapon's profile, and blast characteristic shots have a to hit roll.