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I didn't really believe it until I calculated all that I have today. I recently sold off 1000 points of Tau, and about 500 points of Space Marines. This garnered my right around $300, after shipping costs. So, what did I do with that money, but buy Warmachine stuff! Through ebay and buying from people here on dakka and on bartertown, I have been able to gather:

Everything in the 2-Player Battle Box

Menoth Crusader
Menoth Dervish
Amon Ad Raza

Berserker
Widowmakers
Widowmaker Marksman
Greylord Ternion
Great Bears of Gallowswood
Full Iron Fang Pikemen Unit with UA

All for $224. So for less than the price of my Tau+Space Marines, I was able to get a complete Khador army with extras, and a Menoth Army that is about 5 points shy of regular game level. Calculating what all I will be buying to finish off my Menoth army, I'll have spent a total of $290 for a complete PoM Amon ad Raza army with extras, and a complete Khador pSorcha army with extras. The extra $10 is going to brass rods to replace the Iron Fangs spears, and card holders.

You can go into model-for-model price analysis, but the point is, for the same price as a (roughly standard sized, points-wise) Warhammer 40k army, I am able to get over 2 Warmachine armies. And I might actually get to paint them!

this thread will end badly. a couple 40k enthusiasts will muscle in and debate your statements, than some Warmahordes players will offer their opinion.

glad to see your enjoying the savings warmachine offers. in my opinion the game is cheaper if you do some solid homework on what models you want. since you can then cherry pick a list and avoid the chaff.

Thanks for the advice! I did go off a basic list idea that I wanted for each army, and I looked around alot to get what peoples opinions were on different units. In fact, I think the only models that I have that are more commonly thought of as "sub-par" are the MoW and Cinerators from the battle box, and that is only because they are harder to use.

As for the arguments, well, its a 2:1 army ratio in Warmachines favor, while warhammer has a nearly 3:1 infantry price advantage, although vehicles balance that cost to more of a 2:1 model price for warhammer. Quantity of models, go Warhammer. Variety of armies, go Warmachine.

studderingdave wrote:this thread will end badly. a couple 40k enthusiasts will muscle in and debate your statements, than some Warmahordes players will offer their opinion.

glad to see your enjoying the savings warmachine offers. in my opinion the game is cheaper if you do some solid homework on what models you want. since you can then cherry pick a list and avoid the chaff.

I'm a 40k enthusiast, and I find this to be welcome news! Finally, a game I can play and still afford to pay my rent!

And so long as tourneys do not have a restrictive GW only model rule, you can always swap between the two!

WM rewards variety, so, in the short run, certainly, in the long run, not really. You also need to take in to account that WM minis cost more per model (typically), so it's partially whether you're interested in the hobby (IMHO GW still makes better models, for an average of a little less expense, and certainly allows more customization for play) or game (again IMHO. PP makes a better game, which is cheaper to get in to) or world (too subjective to try to answer, and not really a factor in price).

Also, used games prices vary, especially depending on the deal/size of a set, so you should really only be comparing prices at MSRP.

spiralingcadaver wrote:WM rewards variety, so, in the short run, certainly, in the long run, not really. You also need to take in to account that WM minis cost more per model (typically), so it's partially whether you're interested in the hobby (IMHO GW still makes better models, for an average of a little less expense, and certainly allows more customization for play) or game (again IMHO. PP makes a better game, which is cheaper to get in to) or world (too subjective to try to answer, and not really a factor in price).

Also, used games prices vary, especially depending on the deal/size of a set, so you should really only be comparing prices at MSRP.

See my second comment. Also, I sell/buy at 60%-65% (yes, everything I bought was within this range, as was everything I sold) of retail, so the price ratio is pretty close to comparing MSRP prices.

I would love to give warmahordes a try... except I don't care for the look of the armies.

I posted this elsewhere, but my two 35 point WM armies combined cost (MSRP) less than either my 1850 Eldar or my 1850 Marine army (MSRP) individually. Cost per model varies alot with PP, mostly depending on how much actual material is in the model. All 6 man units are not equal. GW does a much better job at evening out the prices anf produce much larger numbers

And I for one like the PP models better. I had actually bought a few used (but unpainted) WM models to use for Mordhiem and did not realise it. Better sculpts and better quality. But that is just personal preference.

Though if you really want bang for your buck it is hard to beat malifaux. A start box is about $30 and lets you start playing 25-30 point games. And to go higher you only need one or two more models which are about $5-10 apeice. Also very nice sculpts and the ones I have gotten so far have been easy to put together.

I've been a big WM fan for years and have cycled through factions. Played 40k and did the same, my opinion is that in the end it all evens out. I may have spent more on a 40k army to play 1800 points but I also end up buying all models in my WM factions. Short term WM can be cheaper but in the long run it doesn't matter one bit. Playing what you enjoy and collecting more of it doesn't make one better than the other.

The pivotal role of the Warnoun, smaller model count armies, and not rewarding multiplication/spam results in WM/H army lists being both cheaper, more diverse, and more versatile than 40k counterparts.

You also have to take into consideration WM/H units/attachments being entirely self-contained. If you buy a Space Marine Devastator box and you want a full squad of plasma cannon Devs, then you have to go 'somewhere else' and buy another $10-$20 worth of bits for the other two plasma cannons. No such issue with WM/H currently, although potentially there may be something vaguely similar with units having more than one unit attachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

knightdrake wrote:I've been a big WM fan for years and have cycled through factions. Played 40k and did the same, my opinion is that in the end it all evens out. I may have spent more on a 40k army to play 1800 points but I also end up buying all models in my WM factions. Short term WM can be cheaper but in the long run it doesn't matter one bit. Playing what you enjoy and collecting more of it doesn't make one better than the other.

WM/H will give you greater playability for your dollar through smaller model counts and list diversity.

If you spend $150 on three Baal Predators, then all you can play with those models is a 3-Baal-Predator list. If you spend $150 on a Trollbloods Mauler, Bomber, Earthborn, and Mulg, then you can play any Trollbloods list incorporating any combination of those four models.

That's the difference, in my mind. Yes, I can spend $1,000 on a 2500 pt IG 'Ard Boyz list and I can also spend $1,000 collecting the entire Trollbloods faction. The $1,000 worth of IG will give me exactly one list, and to play something different I'll have to buy more models. The $1,000 worth of Trollbloods will give me ten, twenty, fifty different 50 pt lists and an entire edition lifetime worth of gameplay.

Big difference in my opinion.

No hobby is really cheap. A lot of my coworkers "hobbies" cost just as much. When I consider how much they spend on bear, drugs, clubs, sports games tickets, and partying compared to my minimalist approach to those things (which are important, but not as important as toy soldiers) , I realize that fun is just expensive.

GW's models are cheaper, the game is expensive. My Winter Guard Death star is going to ultimately cost me like 100 dollars or something. For 15 guys. However, those guys are like half my army.

If you like putting together models, painting, and converting. I would stay stick to GW. If you want a fast paced great game that is easy to get into. Warmahordes is your best bet.

Yeah, I agree with MediumYellow. WM is better for gaming, but is about as expensive or more expensive per model. So painters and modellers will no doubt prefer 40K as it has more access to plastic models which are cheaper for playing around with, and a more permissive environment for conversions.

That said, I prefer Hordes/WM to 40K and Fantasy, but I enjoy collecting miniatures for all of them.

sourclams wrote:The pivotal role of the Warnoun, smaller model count armies, and not rewarding multiplication/spam results in WM/H army lists being both cheaper, more diverse, and more versatile than 40k counterparts.

You also have to take into consideration WM/H units/attachments being entirely self-contained. If you buy a Space Marine Devastator box and you want a full squad of plasma cannon Devs, then you have to go 'somewhere else' and buy another $10-$20 worth of bits for the other two plasma cannons. No such issue with WM/H currently, although potentially there may be something vaguely similar with units having more than one unit attachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

knightdrake wrote:I've been a big WM fan for years and have cycled through factions. Played 40k and did the same, my opinion is that in the end it all evens out. I may have spent more on a 40k army to play 1800 points but I also end up buying all models in my WM factions. Short term WM can be cheaper but in the long run it doesn't matter one bit. Playing what you enjoy and collecting more of it doesn't make one better than the other.

WM/H will give you greater playability for your dollar through smaller model counts and list diversity.

If you spend $150 on three Baal Predators, then all you can play with those models is a 3-Baal-Predator list. If you spend $150 on a Trollbloods Mauler, Bomber, Earthborn, and Mulg, then you can play any Trollbloods list incorporating any combination of those four models.

That's the difference, in my mind. Yes, I can spend $1,000 on a 2500 pt IG 'Ard Boyz list and I can also spend $1,000 collecting the entire Trollbloods faction. The $1,000 worth of IG will give me exactly one list, and to play something different I'll have to buy more models. The $1,000 worth of Trollbloods will give me ten, twenty, fifty different 50 pt lists and an entire edition lifetime worth of gameplay.

Big difference in my opinion.

Pointing out a couple aspects of your comparisons. A magnetized* predator can in fact make
-6 different predator configurations (2 turrets, 2 types of sponsons and a lack of them)
-a rhino
(add that to upgrades)
…and three can give you probably a couple dozen options if fielded together.

That 2500 point list, with basic magnetization (or even just not gluing things permanently) would allow how many 1,500 point lists? Each Russ kit can build a dozen configurations, each guardsman can be fielded as 7(?) types of troops. Take a more commonly played army, space marines, where a single marine can count as a half-dozen types of models, in a half-dozen armies each.

Again, WM is indisputably easier/cheaper to get started with, but I'd argue that, from my experience at least, WM's emphasis on diversity leads to as much spending as 40k does (unless you rabidly spam in 40k or glue everything (for instance, in the above tank example, you could buy 2 predator kits and get 49 different tank pairings, or you could buy 49 different tank kits)).

*magnetizing is advocated for for WM just as much, so "that takes extra effort" is hardly a legit argument. Building models takes extra effort.

spiralingcadaver wrote:magnetized*

Even if you opt for magnetization, you still need to buy many additional bits. And the various vehicle upgrade sprues are ultimately going to cost a considerable amount of additional money. To magnetize that Baal Predator to be a regular predator would cost roughly another $20, bringing the $/model up to $70 or more, especially if you're ordering from some independent bits site and have to lump shipping on top of the cost. That $70 Predator will represent 1/20 of most marine lists, versus $70 for an entire unit or character warjack/beast that represents 1/5-1/4 of most WM/H lists.

Ditto the IG list. A 2500 point IG list can realistically make probably two or three viable 1500 point lists. And magnetization really doesn't get you very far in most cases; a chimera box can be magnetized to be ... a chimera. A Leman Russ can be magnetized to have sponsons and a battlecannon, or no sponsons and a battlecannon. The newer alternative Russ box is basically ditto, but you have 3 different chassis choices and are still stuck with what is fundamentally a Leman Russ Imperial guard list. Magnetization isn't going to turn a 2500 point Armored Company into footguard, or Air Cav into Chimera spam. At best you turn Armored Company into a slightly different LR-configuration of Armor company, or Vendettas into Valkyries.

I'm not sure what you're talking about re: predator. I was talking about what you can get from a basic kit.

I'd offer that changing the weaponry of a tank gives very different options.

I also mentioned not going crazy with spamming.

I had a 2k point army (+ 200ish points of alternative stuff, then adding in various upgrades/weapon options I could swap in) that I got 7 years' good play out of, with a good competitive record, and no more than two of any given selection, with plenty of variation and fine-tuning, but whatever-- If you want to be a pessimist about 40k, no one is going to stop you.

Eh, it's a very bare-bones 'option' to be able to take a different version of a Predator. Only the AC/HB and AC/las are really utilized, anyhow. I don't see a Predator box being full of options anymore than Neapolitan ice cream contains three different flavors.

And in a 2k list, that $40 Predator will represent roughly 5% of the total list.

In a 50 pt Warmahordes list, my $40 Dire Troll Bomber will represent roughly 15% of the total list.

That's where the true savings comes in, when you start building lists. The playability of the dollar spent simply goes so much further in WM/H. Buy Vulkan, Lysander, Calgar, and three Predators, you don't have 72 different "options", you have the option to run a three predator, two predator, or one predator list with Vulkan, Lysander, or Calgar (or 2/3). Neither Vulkan, nor Lysander, nor Calgar will meaningfully change how those three, two, or one Predators play. Oh, and also you need to spend another $80 to get the tactical marines to make your list legal for your 1100 point game. So that's going to cost us roughly $275 so far.

For $275 I can get Calandra, eMadrak, and Grim Angus plus an Earthborn, plus a unit of Fennblades and UA, plus Janissa and a Bomber. That makes for three legitimate ~25 pt lists that will all play distinctly differently.

spiralingcadaver wrote:
That 2500 point list, with basic magnetization (or even just not gluing things permanently) would allow how many 1,500 point lists? Each Russ kit can build a dozen configurations, each guardsman can be fielded as 7(?) types of troops. Take a more commonly played army, space marines, where a single marine can count as a half-dozen types of models, in a half-dozen armies each.

Again, WM is indisputably easier/cheaper to get started with, but I'd argue that, from my experience at least, WM's emphasis on diversity leads to as much spending as 40k does (unless you rabidly spam in 40k or glue everything (for instance, in the above tank example, you could buy 2 predator kits and get 49 different tank pairings, or you could buy 49 different tank kits)).

*magnetizing is advocated for for WM just as much, so "that takes extra effort" is hardly a legit argument. Building models takes extra effort.

As long as I can get two fully playable WM armies for less than the cost of one fully playable 40k army I will consider WM to be cheaper.

And if you play for any decent amount of time in 40K (meaning codex and edition changes) you will need diversity as well. But the diversity ususally means 2-3 of each unit not 1. And yes, a basic bolter marine can be a few different things, but you also have a variety of upgrades. So for a basic tactical squad you need 7 bolter marines, 3 different special weapons marines and 5 heavy weapon marines. Oh and the Sgts have a ton of variability so gonna need a few of them, too. so to have the option to run any 10 man unit you need to have almost twice as many models as you actually play with. Not very cost effective.

Well said. +1

Its hard to express just what sort of differences in play-style swapping out units in Warmachine / Hordes will make - mainly because for 40k and Fantasy a lot of your play-style is fundamentally set by the codex that you pull out when you start building your army.

Just the warcaster change alone can shift the dynamics of your army from a more offensive role to supporting a powerful assassin caster, or can change you from a more defensive to an offensive footing.

For instance, starting with pStryker gives you an army that benefits from excellent buffs but has a caster who likes to hand back and support from the rear, occasionally contributing an earthquake through an arc node or pot shotting a jack with his disruptor pistol, but mainly rotating his 3 upkeeps round as needed and looking for the best place to unleash his feat. You run 3 units to benefit from his spells - say a unit of Stormguard, Arcane Tempest Gun Mages, and Long Gunners, plus his battle group of an Ironclad, Lancer, and Charger. Now run the exact same army under pStryker, and you change from a more attrition based defensive posture (your main kill condition probably being earthquake + long gunner mass CRA on their caster) to an offensive assault - the army isn't as well suited to run with eStryker, but the ATGM and Long Gunners can chew away at the enemy line before your jacks and Stormguard use Stryker's feat and Positive Charge to explode into the enemy lines and shred their infantry.

Or throw in eCaine - suddenly you're using your army as a scalpel to cut open line of sight to their caster to eCaine can do the job of killing em himself. The threat shifts dramatically from your infantry units to eCaine, as he's the more important target to avoid. It's not just 'do I want flamethrowers or lascannons on this tank', but more along the lines of 'changing my caster or this one unit will fundamentally change my battle plan for winning this game'.

RuneGrey wrote:
Just the warcaster change alone can shift the dynamics of your army from a more offensive role to supporting a powerful assassin caster, or can change you from a more defensive to an offensive footing.

An excellent example, RuneGrey. And, just to illustrate, that's only three different warcasters - you've also got:

-Blaize
-Siege
-pCaine
-pHaley
-eHaley
-Kraye
-pNemo
-eNemo
-Sloan

And then you've got the other 3 main factions, the Ret casters, and the Merc Casters. Not to mention all of the options in Hordes!

I've found it to be a lot cheaper on several scales with everything everyone has said above.

Problem (or not?) with Warmahordes is its extremely addictive and many armies can be appealing. I played Nids 40k forever and never really had a REAL impulse or desire to jump to another army. Played around with Orks for a bit, but meah. At most I'd think 2 armies (I know there are many others that get several).

Warmahordes I litereally had to force myself down to one choice as there were so many options and all of them looked appealing to me. Also, its easier to play a different faction with a specific caster/warlock without going all out in the entire faction. But once you have one caster and you like it, you want them all, and then its like a virus and BAM you have 2 entire factions, and looking at a third...

My friend doesn't do things by half-measures. He's hardcore like that, and apparently had a LOT of extra capital lying around. He got into Warmahordes 3-4 months ago, and has 35+ pts in the following:

Circle, Cygnar, Trolls, Legion, Mercs, with a focus on Circle. He's crazy awesome like that.

This is all opinion of course, but it seems to me Warmahordes has a lot to offer their players.

It's not really cheaper for me, since I get the urge to buy everything for the faction... finally decided I can resist most duplicates, and resist the urge to get the shooty units that didn't interest me as much and are rather subpar for trollbloods. But still, it cost a fortune . However, I also hear that trollbloods are one of the most expensive factions...

Army ADD with Warmachine is common largely because a singular purchase in Warmachine is infinitely more useful than a single purchase in 40k. It still surprises me how a small cheap purchase like a Warcaster or a Scarlock Thrall can really shake up a list.

It is for this reason that it is easy to get wrapped in supplementary purchases (including me). Therefore I say that collecting Warmachine is cheaper than collecting 40k as long as one does not get wrapped up in too many supplementary purchases.