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Just a question.

They have...
I's called the Space Marine codex.

There is, in fact, an Ultramarines codex for 2nd edition, if that's what you're getting at.

Yup...

Codex: Spaces Marines used to be Codex: Ultramarines with the justification that any codex astartes chapter could use their 'dex since they're a perfect codex chapter.

Progress!

Since "all marines aspire to be ultramarines" anyway- codex sm IS the ultramarines codex. Look at all the ultra marine characters, all the art, fluff, it's all generally ultramarines. Because they are ultra.

purplefood wrote:They have...
I's called the Space Marine codex.

Answer found in the first reply. Almost all chapters fight pretty much the exact same way as they do, so it makes sense to just work from the same book.

DarthSpader wrote:Since "all marines aspire to be ultramarines" anyway- codex sm IS the ultramarines codex. Look at all the ultra marine characters, all the art, fluff, it's all generally ultramarines. Because they are ultra.

Everytime that quote is used, I cringe a little. That's not what the book says. It says that most Chapters aspire to be like the Ultramarines and while I do agree that it is completely preposterous that, for example, the Imperial Fists would aspire to be Ultramarines, it isn't as bad as it's always made out to be.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:Since "all marines aspire to be ultramarines" anyway- codex sm IS the ultramarines codex. Look at all the ultra marine characters, all the art, fluff, it's all generally ultramarines. Because they are ultra.

Everytime that quote is used, I cringe a little. That's not what the book says. It says that most Chapters aspire to be like the Ultramarines and while I do agree that it is completely preposterous that, for example, the Imperial Fists would aspire to be Ultramarines,


it isn't as bad as it's always made out to be.

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition wrote:

Chapters in the second category are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and Raven Guard. These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Robute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition wrote:
Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's(?!!) legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it.

Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition wrote:

Others, such as the Space Wolves and Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little how they fare in the eyes of others.

Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of Ultramarines, and all those who follow in their example.

Yeah; Codex Space Marines is Ultramarines; it represents all/most Codex Chapters, chief amongst whom is the Ultramarines.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:Since "all marines aspire to be ultramarines" anyway- codex sm IS the ultramarines codex. Look at all the ultra marine characters, all the art, fluff, it's all generally ultramarines. Because they are ultra.

Everytime that quote is used, I cringe a little. That's not what the book says. It says that most Chapters aspire to be like the Ultramarines and while I do agree that it is completely preposterous that, for example, the Imperial Fists would aspire to be Ultramarines, it isn't as bad as it's always made out to be.

Actually, IIRC that's a quote from Mat Ward in a White Dwarf interview.

But then they shouldn't call this the space marine codex they should call it the ultramarine's codex

Banzaimash wrote:But then they shouldn't call this the space marine codex they should call it the ultramarine's codex

Why?

2nd Edition aside, it's sort of tradition to have Ultramarines as the iconic representative of the "normal" Space Marines, including as "fluff-figurehead" of the Space Marine Codex which (so far) follows ever edition-update and includes "most" other and DIY Space Marines.

Arguably, the whole "Codex Astartes/Horus Heresy/Splitting of Legions" shmuck in the background was invented to enable and encourage players to do their own colour schemes and background on (more or less) an Ultramarine basis/model provided by the studio.

purplefood wrote:They have...
I's called the Space Marine codex.

Exactly.

Maybe they should just call it the codex Astartes.

Why? Space Marine is more recognisable.

Exactly they're space marines not a specific chapter of space marines.

Most marine chapters are not going to the assault extreme of the BT and BA, nor are they as shooting focused as DA, they are less hairy than SW, and they are not all psychic terminators like the GK. If you want to run a "balanced" marine army, you run Codex Marines, in this situation balanced means shooting vs. assault, not game balance. If you are running an assault heavy army, you would run a BT or BA Successor chapter and use the appropriate codex. If you are more of a shooter, you have the DA. Ultramarines are the Ur-example of fence sitting marines, and therefore get the special characters. If they had units that made them diverge from the codex astartes, they would violate their own fluff.

So are you agreeing with me or not.

Banzaimash wrote:So are you agreeing with me or not.

I think so. My rant was not aimed at you specifically, just answering the question in my own rambling, tangential manner.

If the Ultramarines had their own, then the White Scars, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Salamanders and Raven Guard would need their own too... FAR too many codices. The reason they're all wrapped up in one is because they all have very similar play styles and there would be absolutely no point separating them into 6 different codices. That just wastes money and clogs up the already MEQ overcrowded release schedule.

Fine even if we kept the ultra marines in the same codex then they should be half the codex. I mean the other chapters only get a page or two. After all it is a space marine codex not an ultramarine's codex

And the Ultramarines' chapter organization is the default template used by the majority of space marine chapters.

That doesn't mean that on every second page there has to be a mention of the ultramarine's

Banzaimash wrote:That doesn't mean that on every second page there has to be a mention of the ultramarine's

Every second page is quite good going for the generic standard Astartes Chapter. The book has too much of them, but they should still have quite a major presence in my opinion.

purplefood wrote:They have...
I's called the Space Marine codex.

Exactly as I wanted to say.

Just think of the SM codex as the SM: codex compliant chapters codex.

In that codex they wanted to give new players a nice, deep look into how a codex compliant chapter works, an example of what one should be like, it's history, tactics, etc. So they chose one and made them the prototypical codex compliant chapter. There isn't room to do every chapter justice, so they just chose one as an example.

riplikash wrote:Just think of the SM codex as the SM: codex compliant chapters codex.

In that codex they wanted to give new players a nice, deep look into how a codex compliant chapter works, an example of what one should be like, it's history, tactics, etc. So they chose one and made them the prototypical codex compliant chapter. There isn't room to do every chapter justice, so they just chose one as an example.

Exactly, besides no one I've met cares if you have a successor chapter use one of the codex's main chapter characters (So long as you don't grab them from two different chapters, IE no calgar and lysander, nor seth and mephiston). Just name them Captain BOB or Chief Librarian Smith, and do a counts as. Not sure about tournaments, but it's never been a problem I've run into.

Armless Failure wrote:Exactly, besides no one I've met cares if you have a successor chapter use one of the codex's main chapter characters (So long as you don't grab them from two different chapters, IE no calgar and lysander, nor seth and mephiston). Just name them Captain BOB or Chief Librarian Smith, and do a counts as. Not sure about tournaments, but it's never been a problem I've run into.

Even then, Calgar and Lysander have been known to assist each other when there is great need.

The same holds true for Seth and Mephiston.

The codex even says you can rename the special chr's to represent a similar hero from your chapter, so the Ultramarines led by ca;gar can have a terminator similar to Lysander but he is named Captain Karsis, and he uses Lysanders rules.

but but but... who would the other chapters have to worship and be just like?!

templarsandorks? wrote:but but but... who would the other chapters have to worship and be just like?!

Mephiston. Even the psyker hating BT lament that they are not as cool as Mephiston.