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Searched for an answer to this and wasn't able to find one. Played against my buddy today who just picked up necrons and we we're both quite stumped on the Entropic Strike rule. We get that it lowers the armor values for the whole vehicle for the rest of the game, and that you roll for it when any hit happens, but we can't figure out if this happens before or after you roll to glance\pen the vehicle. A lot of other rules in the game come into similar quarrels with the lack of order in resolving things like this. As it didn't specifically say "before a roll to glance\pen", we assumed it happened at the same time. I.E, the scarabs attacked, got 5 hits, rolled against the current armor value of the vehicle, then rolled to reduce the armor value for the rest of the game. It happened against my landraider, which survived the attacks but was left at armor 10 all around afterwards.

We did it this way because it made the most sense. The idea was that if their attacks potentially lower armor, then they'd have to spend a round eating through it, and as such wouldn't be able to get to the core to pen at the same time. We liked the idea of them burrowing their way through the hull as a visual. It's armor 14 which they attacked, and they couldn't damage the vehicle the first time around, but they burrowed through 4 layers of armor, completely stripping it away.

Probably wrong, but meh, just how we did it. Anyone know of a clarification?

AFAIK, and how it looks to me after rereading it 30 times cuz it was lovely, its before you pen, since it specifically states after you make the attacks. Unlike magic, there is no stack, and things happen when they happen.

i dont have my codex.. but if i rember correctly it says when you hit it...
RAW.. i would do it this way untill FAQ...
Roll to hit, (say 20 attacks)
make coversaves (if there is any)/(say 10 hit, make "flat out" covers, 5 successful saves)
roll to pen on the new lowered armor value, with the ones that are not ignored by the cover save, (take 5 away from the AV and try to penn, so a 12 would become a 7)
but thats just me

From the BRB:

Assault Phase - Fighting in close combat:
"In close combat, both players' models fight. Attacks in close combat work like shots in shooting - each attack that hits has a chance to wound."

Shooting Phase - Shooting Sequence:
3 Roll to hit, Roll a D6 for each shot fired. The model's SS determines what score they must equal or beat to hit their target.

4 Roll to wound, For each shot that hits, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The score needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapons with the
Toughness of the target.

From the new Necron Codex Entropic Strike Rule:
"For each hit a vehicle suffers from a weapon or model with this special rule, roll a D6. For each result of 4+, it immediately loses 1 point of Armour Value from all facings."

Ergo, you roll to hit vs the vehicle, resolve the entropic strikes, then roll on armor penetration.

At least that's how myself and everyone else I've talked to about it has reasoned it. I could of course be wrong given that the codex is only days old.

I agree with WanderingFox.

so wandering.. would you say you would get a "coversave" if you had one before you apply the entropic strike?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
im just asking because if i remember the wording on saves, you ignore the hit if successful.. just wondering.

It's a save, it happens after hits are resolved.

A scores X hits on B. A makes Y wound rolls on B. B makes Z cover saves. A inflicts Y-Z wounds.

The use of the word 'immediate' implies that it happens in between 'A scores X hits on B.' A makes Y wound rolls on B.' At least in terms of vehicles, as the wording for entropic on non-vehicles is different.

Again, thats just an educated guess. As it's been proven to me just moments ago in another thread since there is no solid RAW people can and will argue it all sorts of ways until it gets FAQ'd XD

That said, it's fairly apparent how they intended it to function.

Yeah, I dont have my BRB or codex with me, but with the wording on saves i thought it says the "hit is ignored"
but to be fair, you get a 4+ save against the touch anyway, i forgot about you needing to roll 4+ to even drop the AV.. with two 4+ saves against that ability would make it praticaly usless

Except you can't take cover against close combat attacks. Though DE Flickerfields and SoB Faith saves can be taken, I still don't think it is relevant since saves protect against damage, not hits.

Though eldar titan holofields would work, if it comes up.

It says "avoid the damage"

The ordering is Roll to Hit -> Roll to wound -> Roll to ignore the wound.

"Roll a D6 for each wound the model has suffered f rom
incoming fire and compare the results to the model's Sv
characteristic. If the dice result is equal to or higher
than the model's Sv value, the wound is stopped"

cool, that puts the nail in the coffin for my question...

It says avoid the wound, and and as vehicles equivalent is rolls on the pen/glance chart, that is what it ignores.

Also the entropic strike rule says it occurs immediately after the hit roll, thus before rolling the damage. No where does it say that the ES rule is damage itself.

Though looking at your post, we may be arguing the same thing. If so, yay.

After a lot of brb perusing and codex digging, as best we can determine at the shop is this:

Make your attacks>count number of hits>roll for ES>roll to glance/pen>take cover/invuln saving throws>roll on damage table.

GW sure has a knack for creating some pretty complicated resolution chains. Here's one more for the pile...are you allowed to attack units/models you dont have the ability to damage before the attacks happen? I cant think of this issue coming up before, but scarabs are str.3 and so on a 6 wouldnt even glance a DE raider. Granted they have the potential to damage, but if a unit has absolutely no potential to dmg another unit, can they assault it and get locked into combat? Example, infantry without anything higher than str4 assaulting a dreadnaught with 13 front armor? Side tangent I know, but it came up so I just thought Id add it to the fire.

You can't take cover saves against entropic strike, since it doesn't actually inflict wounds/damage. It just changes a value.

juraigamer wrote:You can't take cover saves against entropic strike, since it doesn't actually inflict wounds/damage. It just changes a value.

This 100% this

Aipoch wrote:After a lot of brb perusing and codex digging, as best we can determine at the shop is this:

Make your attacks>count number of hits>roll for ES>roll to glance/pen>take cover/invuln saving throws>roll on damage table.

GW sure has a knack for creating some pretty complicated resolution chains. Here's one more for the pile...are you allowed to attack units/models you dont have the ability to damage before the attacks happen? I cant think of this issue coming up before, but scarabs are str.3 and so on a 6 wouldnt even glance a DE raider. Granted they have the potential to damage, but if a unit has absolutely no potential to dmg another unit, can they assault it and get locked into combat? Example, infantry without anything higher than str4 assaulting a dreadnaught with 13 front armor? Side tangent I know, but it came up so I just thought Id add it to the fire.

Why would you not be allowed to charge something because you can't hurt it?

juraigamer wrote:You can't take cover saves against entropic strike, since it doesn't actually inflict wounds/damage. It just changes a value.

The cover save reference was in the event it was drom a shooting attack. In either case, shooting or close combat, any save would negate the damage, not the hit. Im not an expert on the new codex so I just assumed some model might have this special rule with a ranged weapon.

Never said they couldn't assault in btw, just wondered if there was some obscure rule or faq that existed that specifically said something along the lines of "models which have no ability to harm other models may not attack", or any version there of. I didnt think that was the case, but still thought it best to ask the community at large.

WanderingFox wrote:From the BRB:

Assault Phase - Fighting in close combat:
"In close combat, both players' models fight. Attacks in close combat work like shots in shooting - each attack that hits has a chance to wound."

Shooting Phase - Shooting Sequence:
3 Roll to hit, Roll a D6 for each shot fired. The model's SS determines what score they must equal or beat to hit their target.

4 Roll to wound, For each shot that hits, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The score needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapons with the
Toughness of the target.

From the new Necron Codex Entropic Strike Rule:
"For each hit a vehicle suffers from a weapon or model with this special rule, roll a D6. For each result of 4+, it immediately loses 1 point of Armour Value from all facings."

Ergo, you roll to hit vs the vehicle, resolve the entropic strikes, then roll on armor penetration.

At least that's how myself and everyone else I've talked to about it has reasoned it. I could of course be wrong given that the codex is only days old.

Agreed.

Aipoch wrote:

juraigamer wrote:You can't take cover saves against entropic strike, since it doesn't actually inflict wounds/damage. It just changes a value.

The cover save reference was in the event it was drom a shooting attack. In either case, shooting or close combat, any save would negate the damage, not the hit. Im not an expert on the new codex so I just assumed some model might have this special rule with a ranged weapon.

Never said they couldn't assault in btw, just wondered if there was some obscure rule or faq that existed that specifically said something along the lines of "models which have no ability to harm other models may not attack", or any version there of. I didnt think that was the case, but still thought it best to ask the community at large.

Against models, the wording is "unsaved wounds", so a cover save would negate everything, including Entropic Strike's special abilities. Hitting a vehicle is a bit different, because it says "hits" - but almost all (if not all) Entropic Strike abilities in the codex are tied to close combat attacks, so cover saves wouldn't be an issue anyway.

puma713 wrote:

Aipoch wrote:

juraigamer wrote:You can't take cover saves against entropic strike, since it doesn't actually inflict wounds/damage. It just changes a value.

The cover save reference was in the event it was drom a shooting attack. In either case, shooting or close combat, any save would negate the damage, not the hit. Im not an expert on the new codex so I just assumed some model might have this special rule with a ranged weapon.

Never said they couldn't assault in btw, just wondered if there was some obscure rule or faq that existed that specifically said something along the lines of "models which have no ability to harm other models may not attack", or any version there of. I didnt think that was the case, but still thought it best to ask the community at large.

Against models, the wording is "unsaved wounds", so a cover save would negate everything, including Entropic Strike's special abilities. Hitting a vehicle is a bit different, because it says "hits" - but almost all (if not all) Entropic Strike abilities in the codex are tied to close combat attacks, so cover saves wouldn't be an issue anyway.

The Cryptek ability "Harp of Dissonance", an infinite range Str 6 entropic strike means Cover Saves WILL be an issue.

No, cover saves are not an issue, as cover saves on vehicles negate damage, NOT any HITS

You roll before AP

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, cover saves are not an issue, as cover saves on vehicles negate damage, NOT any HITS

You roll before AP

The cover save will have absolutely zero bearing on the entropic strike rule for the above mentioned ES shooting attack; if it hits, it gets to roll to see if it reduces a point of armor. It then rolls to pen against the vehicle, and should it glance/pen (agaonst the newly reduced armor value) the cover save will then absolutely apply.

Similar situations exist for other weapons with special riles in their profile.