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Before you start bragging: "Only in death does duty ends!!!" and that sort of things...

In the contrary, how many years of service must Guardsman have before he can go into retirement?

And what happens if he choose to stay in service of the Emperor? Does he get promoted or he just stay regular Guardsman?

IIUP didn't say anything about retirement, and they only prof of that I have read in BL novel "Fifteen Hours". But since BL novels are canonical as Troll lair I have my doubts that certain army's ( Cadians ) don't even have this option. But what about others?

Well, most Guardsmen don't survive their first battle, but without very much knowledge of the Imperial Guard I would say as soon as they physically become too old to fight

Sometimes...sometimes after a IG regiment is included in a planetary conquest then the regiment is "gifted " with the planet, and basically settles down to hold/colonize said planet, and forms a nucleus for a PDF, then they can have families and hopefully grow old, but I would imagine they still fufill duties in thier Regiments structure as age permits.
Now this is less than 1% of all Regiments, most die in the service of the Empire, Retirement is a bodybag, or old age... I am sure that most armsroom personel are old geezers as are cooks and supply masters, trainers and officers, it seems in alot of the art containing the command seems to be pretty old in appearance.

So not much of a retirement plan no 401k and very little hope of family, heres some water caste pamplets, feel free to puruse them.

I think it is a case of, if they have not been promoted to less combat orientated positions, then they die in battle becuase they are too old to fight

One of the Eisenhorn short stories, 'Missing In Action', heavily involves former members of an Imperial Guard Regiment that, after years of action, had been returned to their planet and disbanded. There is a major problem, however, with the few Guardsmen lucky enough to retire - they're often so traumatised that they can't adjust to 'normal' life. Everything they've seen and done will haunt them to their end. Some see heretics everywhere & believe they're continuing the fight against their Emperor's foes, others see daemons in every shadow, some never speak again. Their freedom from military service might look like a fine reward but in truth they're so broken in mind that it would be kinder to line them up and shoot them.

Generally Guardsmen will be retired after either particularly harrowing/long campaigns, which can last in excess of 10 years of nigh-on constant warfare, or after a set number of years service, which might vary depending on the Regiment/how nice the Adeptus Administratum is feeling.

Those who stay in the Emperor's service, whether in the Imperial Guard or by joining an Inquisitors retinue, may recieve a promotion for volunteering to kill more of the Emperor's foes. Whether this would be a promotion to Officer rank or to a senior NCO rank would depend on the Regiment - some draw their officers from a ruling/noble class whilst others promote through ability. Within the Inquisition they'd probably not be 'promoted' as ranks matter little, just ability.

Think i read somewhere its usually ten years. Though as stated before most would likely be too scarred to have any other life. I think it was Rebel Winter that i read every ten years a guardsmen can either re-enlist or be dropped off on the nearest planet(as opposed to returning to Vostroya) so he can retire.

Claiming of a planet only happens to regiments partaking in a Crusade.

So my assumption was right, they do get pension. However, it depends on world in question, current battle situation and years of life.

But I didn't know that some of them go nuts after they get pension.

They're often nuts way before they get a pension, with army discipline being the only thing that holds the madness at bay. It's understandable though. Imagine being taken from your home world & thrust into a conflict against creatures that are your worst nightmares personified, be subjected to artillery barrages that last months, fight in conditions that at best would be considered inhumane, constantly have to risk your life to take ground & push the enemy back, constantly lose friends & comrades. Add a heavy dosage of propaganda on top and serve up with religious fervor.

Don't know about you but I'd most likely go insane facing that for years on end.

Sparks_Havelock wrote: fight in conditions that at best would be considered inhumane, constantly have to risk your life to take ground & push the enemy back,

Are you asking for humanity and goodness in war? Have you ever read 'War is Hell' on tvtropes. I can't give you the link as my internet is acting up on me .

Don't know about you but I'd most likely go insane facing that for years on end.

Also, your making a generalization seeing as some guardsmen can retire as normal people, relatively anyway, to become Drill Abbots or PDF or die of old age as Senior commanders etc.

One of the adventures by FFG has a retired guardsmen have his own business as a Skyboat captain.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote: fight in conditions that at best would be considered inhumane, constantly have to risk your life to take ground & push the enemy back,

Are you asking for humanity and goodness in war? Have you ever read 'War is Hell' on tvtropes. I can't give you the link as my internet is acting up on me .

Don't know about you but I'd most likely go insane facing that for years on end.

Also, your making a generalization seeing as some guardsmen can retire as normal people, relatively anyway, to become Drill Abbots or PDF or die of old age as Senior commanders etc.

One of the adventures by FFG has a retired guardsmen have his own business as a Skyboat captain.

I think your misreading here, he never said it happens to all Guardsmen, he just says it does happen. Which we have proof of. There are still plenty sane Guardsmen around.

Also, using FFG as example isn't a good plan. Lots of iffy stuff in their books

With the guard it ALWAYS comes down to the regimen. Like most Imperial organizations they are given great amounts of leeway in how they run things, both in when it comes to recruiting, and retiring. Things don't start getting unified until you get to the upper levels of the officer tree.

Some do the roman thing (25 years of service and you get land), others are more like a modern military. Others make it lifelong service, and still others make it lifelong punishment (see: penal legions). There is no one answer.

Just remember when it comes to most guard questions: regimens can do what they want as long as they follow the orders passed down.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote: fight in conditions that at best would be considered inhumane, constantly have to risk your life to take ground & push the enemy back,

Are you asking for humanity and goodness in war? Have you ever read 'War is Hell' on tvtropes. I can't give you the link as my internet is acting up on me .

No, thats not what I'm saying. What I am saying, when I write 'inhumane conditions', I was broadly covering what we'd consider to be inhumane by our standards - years spent in the same water-filled trenches, not being assigned the correct equipment for the warzone the Guardsmen are fighting in*, being punished excessively for the most minor infraction by their own officers/commissars, even down to the terrain they'd fight in - I'd not want to fight on a planet like Catachan, a Deathworld, where the planet is as dangerous, if not more so, than the enemy you face!

*For example suitable clothing for the planet/terrain they're in - you wouldn't send Cadians to an ice world & expect them to fight in their standard issue fatigues & armour, or dispatch Valhallan Ice Warriors to fight on a desert world in their greatcoats & equipment they'd normally use on ice worlds/Valhalla, but it probably happens.

Don't know about you but I'd most likely go insane facing that for years on end.

Also, your making a generalization seeing as some guardsmen can retire as normal people, relatively anyway, to become Drill Abbots or PDF or die of old age as Senior commanders etc.

One of the adventures by FFG has a retired guardsmen have his own business as a Skyboat captain.

Of course some retire and live as normal a life as is possible. War doesn't break everyone and some people embrace war with an enjoyment that borders on madness - they're so in love with war and fighting that anything else is anathema to them. Others manage to come through the battles, sieges, campaigns and so on mostly unscathed - I play an DKoK veteran in the employ of an Inquisitor in the Dark Heresy PnP - if war has done anything to him it's turned him from being the taciturn, grim soldier typical of Krieg & turned him into a happy, laughing, joking warrior who is at home telling a joke as he is blasting the head off of a fleeing Cultist with his Hell-pistol. What I was saying is that its entirely understandable that war breaks the minds of so many others that they become shadows of their former selves. Can you even begin to imagine the nightmares they must have night after night after night for the rest of their lives, of the creatures/enemies they've faced, of the friends & comrades lost in battle, of the horrors & hardships they've suffered, of having to charge into enemy fire, of sitting in a trench enduring constant artillery strikes.
Not every human is a born fighter, not all of those who are in the Guard are Colonel Schaeffer or Colonel-Commissar Guant or Gunnery Sergeant Harker or Colour-Sergeant Kell etc, but are ordinary men & women trained for war, sent off to fight on worlds they've never heard of, against foes they know nothing about and are expected to fight & die for a God-Emperor they only know through depictions & Adeptus Ministorum teachings.

Soladrin wrote:
Also, using FFG as example isn't a good plan. Lots of iffy stuff in their books

What sort of iffy stuff? I have found the books to be coherent when it comes to fluff. There are mistakes here and ther granted but not something that can't be rationalized or taken as an outlier.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
No, thats not what I'm saying. What I am saying, when I write 'inhumane conditions', I was broadly covering what we'd consider to be inhumane by our standards

Understood.

-

years spent in the same water-filled trenches,

World war I.

not being assigned the correct equipment for the warzone the Guardsmen are fighting in*,
*For example suitable clothing for the planet/terrain they're in - you wouldn't send Cadians to an ice world & expect them to fight in their standard issue fatigues & armour, or dispatch Valhallan Ice Warriors to fight on a desert world in their greatcoats & equipment they'd normally use on ice worlds/Valhalla.

I think that this is what usually happens. As is shown in Imperial Armor, the war was stated to be a pitiless siege war and cause of this the DKoC were the ones dispatched along with all the supplies needed. All those stories one finds where they don't get supplies happen to be Administratum or Munitorium screw-ups as is shown in as short story where Tallar end up on a planet with their armor but no fuel .

being punished excessively for the most minor infraction by their own officers/commissars,

Depends on the Comissar *Shrug*

even down to the terrain they'd fight in - I'd not want to fight on a planet like Catachan, a Deathworld, where the planet is as dangerous, if not more so, than the enemy you face!

The people of Catachan happen to like their Homeworld funny enough.

Of course some retire and live as normal a life as is possible. War doesn't break everyone and some people embrace war with an enjoyment that borders on madness - they're so in love with war and fighting that anything else is anathema to them. Others manage to come through the battles, sieges, campaigns and so on mostly unscathed - I play an DKoK veteran in the employ of an Inquisitor in the Dark Heresy PnP - if war has done anything to him it's turned him from being the taciturn, grim soldier typical of Krieg & turned him into a happy, laughing, joking warrior who is at home telling a joke as he is blasting the head off of a fleeing Cultist with his Hell-pistol. What I was saying is that its entirely understandable that war breaks the minds of so many others that they become shadows of their former selves. Can you even begin to imagine the nightmares they must have night after night after night for the rest of their lives, of the creatures/enemies they've faced, of the friends & comrades lost in battle, of the horrors & hardships they've suffered, of having to charge into enemy fire, of sitting in a trench enduring constant artillery strikes.
Not every human is a born fighter, not all of those who are in the Guard are Colonel Schaeffer or Colonel-Commissar Guant or Gunnery Sergeant Harker or Colour-Sergeant Kell etc, but are ordinary men & women trained for war, sent off to fight on worlds they've never heard of, against foes they know nothing about and are expected to fight & die for a God-Emperor they only know through depictions & Adeptus Ministorum teachings.

Glad we could agree then .

Sometimes veterans of a regiment who have fought long and well enough are retired then dropped off on a world to start new lives. They won't return them to their own world, that's too complicated and Warp Travel is too dangerous to risk on such sentimental things. A Guardsman almost never returns home, regardless of if he lives or dies.

Most of the time "retirement" is simply when a Regiment is garrisoned on a remote world then forgotten about, and as long as the world never comes under attack (which is likely in the massive Imperium) they'll live out the rest of their days fairly quietly.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

years spent in the same water-filled trenches,

World war I.

Exactly what I was driving at. The realities of trench warfare are not refered to as 'horrors' for nothing - those are not conditions that any officer would expect their soldiers to fight in today. In the 41st millenium however?

I think that this is what usually happens. As is shown in Imperial Armor, the war was stated to be a pitiless siege war and cause of this the DKoK were the ones dispatched along with all the supplies needed. All those stories one finds where they don't get supplies happen to be Administratum or Munitorium screw-ups as is shown in as short story where Tallar end up on a planet with their armor but no fuel .

Indeedy! I suppose with sending so many men to war there are bound to be foul-ups within the logistical elements.

Depends on the Comissar *Shrug*

I suppose so. Some lead through example, others are quicker to use draconian methods.

even down to the terrain they'd fight in - I'd not want to fight on a planet like Catachan, a Deathworld, where the planet is as dangerous, if not more so, than the enemy you face!

The people of Catachan happen to like their Homeworld funny enough.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Exactly what I was driving at. The realities of trench warfare are not refered to as 'horrors' for nothing - those are not conditions that any officer would expect their soldiers to fight in today. In the 41st millenium however?

On the ground realities and the experience of the Commanding officers dictate how wars will be fought along with logistics.

Indeedy! I suppose with sending so many men to war there are bound to be foul-ups within the logistical elements.

Even we of Modern earth suffer administrative and logistic scre-wups due to corruption or incompetence etc.

I suppose so. Some lead through example, others are quicker to use draconian methods.

As I said, depends on the Commissar.

With the advances in bombers (which WWI did not have in any significant manner) and drones, trench warfare is a thing of the past. You could wipe out an entire division in trenches with a single snake-and-nape run.

Psienesis wrote:With the advances in bombers (which WWI did not have in any significant manner) and drones, trench warfare is a thing of the past. You could wipe out an entire division in trenches with a single snake-and-nape run.

Considering most of the Imperiums enemies don't have bombers with napalm and cluster bombs and what not; trenches remain a viable defense.

Or aerial defenses counter them.

BrainDeleted wrote:Or aerial defenses counter them.

The hydra has lots of Dakka.
Its like

Psienesis wrote:With the advances in bombers (which WWI did not have in any significant manner) and drones, trench warfare is a thing of the past. You could wipe out an entire division in trenches with a single snake-and-nape run.

Funny enough Trench Warfare happened at least to some degree in Afghanistan in modern times, so while it is uncommon it isn't impossible. Hell there's even been Bayonet charges in 2009 and 2004.

Trench warfare is, as I understand it, bad because it inevitably is a stalemate because it was so costly to attack. It's actually pretty good for defense, if your enemy employs the sort of tactics involved in charging you (Orks, Tyranids, Insane chaos cultists.)
Add to that the existence of void shielding/powerfield theatre shielding in some cases and a trench warfare setup can make some sense in a purely defensive manner. It's when the IG has to charge that it becomes annoying.

Akso, bombers and drones and stuff are useful, but they aren't game winners when you are facing an enemey of equal or superior force. How much use are unmanned drones against jamming (or if they can shoot them down, or shoot down your satellites?) How good are bombers if your enemy has fighter aircraft equal to your own? In the caes of the US they really haven't fought an opponent of equal technological capability in a long time, which tends to exaggerate things I'd say (nevermind that the US also tends to have control of things on the logistics end.. basically total control of theatre allows them to dictate these kinds of things ultimately, and that's what really matters.)

That is not to say the IG are some super competent elite military force or they don't do stupid things, because they do, and they do have some hefty drawbacks... but some things about them get over-exaggerated.

Besides air power is nothing compared ot orbital superiority. In sci fi that ultimately is the big thing (although it's not a decisive thing.. at least not in every case.)

I usually imagine 40k battles taking place in theaters where the air battle is a stalemate. With huge orbital ships lurking around (with guns capable of terrible, terrible things) just above the air battle for supremacy would be...Entirely different than it is nowadays.

In the book 15 Hours, a guardsman is talking about how his great-great grand father was a Guard veteran and he was in his forties, and the grandfather won some lottery so he could retire and get a Rogue Trader liscense.

DoctorZombie wrote: In the book 15 Hours, a guardsman is talking about how his great-great grand father was a Guard veteran and he was in his forties, and the grandfather won some lottery so he could retire and get a Rogue Trader liscense.

He didn't win that, he killed the men that won and steal his ticket.

Or, at least, that is how the other, more-veteran soldiers around him interpreted his story. For obvious reasons, as anyone familiar with the story knows, we'll never know. Still, regardless of which side was correct IRT that story, it indicates that there was a retirement process for that Guard Regiment.

Outside of regiment-based colonization of a freshly liberated world (where the soldiers still form a part of the Imperial apparatus), I don't see "retirement" as a viable option. It's just too much hassle for the administration. Generally, Imperial Guard regiments are described as simply being raised and then shipped from warzone to warzone. Over the years, they either cease to exist or get merged with other regiments. In case of the latter, the formation will end up being a motley collection of soldiers of all age groups, possibly even from a dozen different planets. No way is the Imperium going to organize transport just to ship some expendable trooper home across half the galaxy.

Those veteran rank-and-file who really are as lucky as to reach grandpa-age (which is actually highly unlikely, as Veterans will simply be thrust into ever more dangerous situations because of their experience and accumulated special equipment) probably end up with a desk job in the staff section or are simply dropped off at a Schola to continue their service to the Emperor by teaching the next generation of warriors how to fight.

Retirement is for the PDF. Once you're in the Guard, you're in the Emperor's service for life. Regardless of whether it lasts a single month or fifty years.

Just my interpretation, though, borne out of what I gathered from the codices.

It probably depends on the regiment in question, where they're located, and how far away from home they are. CAdians serving in the Ultima segmentum (it's happened, IIRC there were supposed to be Cadians in Damocles Gulf for some reason) probably wouldn't get repatriated home for example. But a regiment one sector over might get retired or returned home. Colonization seems more likely, since it is guaranteed to create a nucleus of Imperial-loyal support on the planet (which only serves the Imperium's interests) as well as facilitating the spreading of the doctrine and military knowledge it might favor (Krieg settling Baran and spinning off the Baran Siegemasters.)

Next likely is that a "retired" regiment is established on some other location off the frontlines as a garrison regiment. Again it has benefits of integration and reinforcing loyalty. Other options are that they get folded into another regiment and their old number is "retired" or returned to the homeworld so a fresh founding under that name can be raised. Or two regiments might be combined (A variation of the above, without retiring the number).

It's also quite possible they may just be retired and dropped off on the nearest Imperial-held or Imperial allied planet, and left to fend for themselves as best they can. That seems rather likely, given the Imperial approach.

Examples of IG troops being returned ot their homeworld are the Sameter guardsmen from the one Eisenhorn short story, as well as another mentioned in the Inquisition War novels (third novel, I think.) whereupon they ended up serving as private military forces/mercenaries on planet. There was also Dr BelKnap from Ravenor, and some dude from the LEt the Galaxy Burn short story "angels" I think.

I suspect the reality is that there is no policy from "up top" EG the High Lords or segmentum level as to how IG regiments are handled. It is probably left to the sector, subsector, or even system level as to how they are dealt with, and as a consequence that means it can vary from planet to planet, sector to sector, or even war to war.

I believe its up to the Lord Militant General whom the guardsmen belongs too. For most duty really does only end in death but maybe some of the nicer ones might give a 25 year tour of duty. Also, maybe he could release one he's particularly fond of or has taken a particularly bad mauling etc. As usual with most things in 40K: it depends

Lynata wrote:Outside of regiment-based colonization of a freshly liberated world (where the soldiers still form a part of the Imperial apparatus), I don't see "retirement" as a viable option. It's just too much hassle for the administration. Generally, Imperial Guard regiments are described as simply being raised and then shipped from warzone to warzone. Over the years, they either cease to exist or get merged with other regiments. In case of the latter, the formation will end up being a motley collection of soldiers of all age groups, possibly even from a dozen different planets. No way is the Imperium going to organize transport just to ship some expendable trooper home across half the galaxy.

Those veteran rank-and-file who really are as lucky as to reach grandpa-age (which is actually highly unlikely, as Veterans will simply be thrust into ever more dangerous situations because of their experience and accumulated special equipment) probably end up with a desk job in the staff section or are simply dropped off at a Schola to continue their service to the Emperor by teaching the next generation of warriors how to fight.

Retirement is for the PDF. Once you're in the Guard, you're in the Emperor's service for life. Regardless of whether it lasts a single month or fifty years.

Just my interpretation, though, borne out of what I gathered from the codices.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I believe its up to the Lord Militant General whom the guardsmen belongs too. For most duty really does only end in death but maybe some of the nicer ones might give a 25 year tour of duty. Also, maybe he could release one he's particularly fond of or has taken a particularly bad mauling etc. As usual with most things in 40K: it depends

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