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How’s this for a house rule:
Any model that would normally inflicted 2D6 penetrating hits in close combat on vehicles only inflict the extra D6 against a walker if it is stunned or immobilized. Walkers can duck and weave; like a boxer, and quite unlike tank, which makes it a bit hard to bury a chainfist into them.

edit - fixed typo

I do not like that rule either. What you're trying to do is already built into 40k through the WS stat. Vehicles don't get that; instead, they operate on how fast the vehicle is moving. Yours might not be too bad if it weren't for the aforementioned rule, and the fact that you're locked in combat with a walker. Now yours unbalances combat with TMCs, giving the TMC a much harder time killing the walker.

Venerable Dreadnaught base cost: 165
necron spyders: base cost 50 each
dark eldar talos: base cost 100
Generic CSM Greater Daemon: 100

Under my suggestion when a venerable dreadnaught charges into a unit of 3 spyders or a single talos it can make a decent account for itself in the pursuing combat. This can swing sharply to the enemy's favor if a single glancing hit removes its protection from the 2D6 penetration, or robs the dreadnaught of its combat weapon. Under the current rules the dread has a grotz chance in this situation. Under my house rule, these type of combats are still likely to be the enemies’ favor - ignoring the possible existence of a Strength 5 monstrous creature at the moment. Right now individual marine characters are better at combating these types of opponents (spyders, talos, tyrants) than their dreadnaughts. And if the dreadnaught’s weapon skill was raised to 10 the the spyders and talos would just go from hitting it on a 4+ to a 5+.

Under your house rule, Tyranid MC's are screwed, and all of them cost more than your Dreadnaught if you're trying to use cost as a basis.

And since when is a Dreadnaught supposed to be amazing at CC?

You don't seem to be taking into account that Dreadnoughts can shoot, which the generic GD can't. That's where the extra cost comes from, and that's the Dread's advantage over the GD.

That, and comparing a ven dread cost wise to a all those naked units isn't fair. They're in two totally different cost brackets, and the venerable dread gets a plethora of extra goodies for being as expensive as he is. Venerable special rule, extra weapon skill and ballistic skill, so on.

Try comparing the cost of a regular dreadnought to those monstrous creatures. 105 points. Bit of a better comparison, and the dread has better shooting potential and can (arguably) weather fire better. A krak missile will only glance the front armor of a dread on a 4, and pen on a 5 or 6. Even then, it's not guaranteed to do anything beyond piss it off. It'll wound a talos on a 3+ and deny him an armor save. An average round of shooting from devastators can wipe a talos off the board. Balanced the way it is, leave it alone.

I'd also like to add, looking at a dreadnought....they don't look to nimbly-bimbly like a cat or anything...I don't see them ducking and weaving in CC.

Grunt13 wrote:Venerable Dreadnaught base cost: 165
necron spyders: base cost 50 each
dark eldar talos: base cost 100
Generic CSM Greater Daemon: 100

Generic Hive Tyrant: 170

Under my suggestion when a venerable dreadnaught charges

I think that's the problem right there.

Under my house rule, these type of combats are still likely to be the enemies’ favor - ignoring the possible existence of a Strength 5 monstrous creature at the moment.

Wait, what? You're proposing that a S6 MC would still have favor if it only had a d6 armor penetration against a Dreadnought? You know that melee with walkers is against front armor, right? I'm trying to figure out how "needs a 6 to glance" is favorable against "2 to 3 attacks, 2+ to wound".

Right now individual marine characters are better at combating these types of opponents (spyders, talos, tyrants) than their dreadnaughts.

Can you elaborate? I am not so sure ANY of them are good at fighting monstrous creatures, at least, in melee combat. If ordinary infantry could actually stand a fight against them, they wouldn't be very monstrous, would they?

And if the dreadnaught’s weapon skill was raised to 10 the the spyders and talos would just go from hitting it on a 4+ to a 5+.

Was this a second suggestion? I don't like it either. Seems arbitrary.

All the the combatants have special rules or abilities that are factored into their cost, but don’t effect a straight out combat. I used the cheapest costed venerable dread verse the cheapest costed versions of the monstrous creatures. I don’t use dreads, as I don’t play space marines; I play Necrons, CSM and dark eldar: I wrote the rules from the perspective of someone who keeps tearing apart dreadnaughts with spyders, tali (taloses/taloi?), and greater daemons in a single round combats, this left me with the opinion that my opponent’s walkers should have made a better showing of itself.

As for choosing a venerable dreadnaught over a normal dreadnaught - I wanted my combat comparison to be simple, both spyders and talos hitting on a 4+. I could have done the same combat comparison will ork walkers, penitent engines, defilers, death company/furioso dreadnaughts and used other types of monstrous creatures, but I worked with what I was most familiar with. I just think a combat between a monstrous creature versus a dreadnaught or dreadnaught-like units shouldn’t be so one sided and perhaps last a little longer on average than one combat turn. Looks like I am in the minority with that opinion.

I think something important you neglect to mention is that a talos has NO invul save. So once you wound it three times (on a bloody 2+) it's going to die. A venerable can get a damaged/destroyed result and the player can have it re-rolled. Also when you're fighting a venerable, or worse an ironclad you're attacking its front armour. If it wasn't for that extra D6 most players would be reduced to glances only. As for your final bit about the fight being one sided you must have seriously had some good rolls during your battles. I play with a Daemon Prince, Talos and Dreadknight all of which I like to think are pretty good once they get into CC. On average I either walk away with one wound left or the dreadnought walks away with an arm left. Sadly I'm not even accounting for the melta, heavy flamer and hunter killers the dread could lay into me before we tangle (that usually preludes me dying in a single round of CC). In all honesty it seems that you should have your opponents practice with their dreads more and not give them this handicap.

Grunt13 wrote: I wrote the rules from the perspective of someone who keeps tearing apart dreadnaughts with spyders, tali (taloses/taloi?), and greater daemons in a single round combats, this left me with the opinion that my opponent’s walkers should have made a better showing of itself.

a) You're comparing a unit designed for CC to a mobile pillbox.
b) You're assuming that CC is all there is to it.
c) You're neglecting the higher point cost MCs (like Hive Tyrants) that will now have massive problems even getting a pen on a walker.
-- STR6 + 1d6 vs what's the front armor of a Ven Dread?
d) You're counting relatively lucky results in your favor as fact.
e) You're using bad tactics to justify failure - don't charge into CC with CC units unless you want to delay them for a turn or you're also a CC unit.

Walkers tarpit non-CC units effectively enough as is - no need to make them tarpit CC units also.

DakkaDakka wrote:

All right, I guess it was a bad suggestion on my part.

Well, when I was learning the rule, I asked why MC ignore the armour of other MCs. I got the following back, and it makes a decent arguement here.

" UIf you take a smack in the face from a 10 tonne Carnifex with giant 2 tonne claws, it doesn't matter whether your wearing Flak Armour, Power Armour, or are a burning metal god, it is going to hurt badly."

" Similarly, if you take a smack in the face froma Wraithlord, it doesn't matter what way you're standing ior jumping about, it is going to rip yopu a new one.


As for the boxer arguemnet, imagine someone like Jet Li in a boxing fight with someone REALLY strong. I am going to use the erxample of chuick Norris, but then realiosed Chuck Norris wins because he has nothing better to do.

So, Jet Li vs, I don't know, anyone, let's call him Bob.

Jet Li can jump about and jab and wear him down all he wabnts. But as soon as he takes a punch, he is going down.

The only time this would make sense would be with sentinels, and even then, probably just the scout ones.

Edit: Maybe the eldar war walkers, but I don't know about them. :/