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I am a double major in physics and philsophy. I have often considered how curious the philosophy of the Adeptus Mechanicus was, and how early mentions of the Golden Age (sometimes called the Dark Age) reveal that "humanity worshipped science as a God."

I believe I have seen how this theology could develop. The following is intended to be read in-universe, as a founding document of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

===================================
The planets orbit and rotate, as though gears.

The stars glow with nuclear fire, as reactors.

Black holes drain energy, as heat-sinks.

All of the phenomena observed in astronomy float and dance in intricate patterns, fueled and governed by the laws of physics.

Ah, the laws of physics - unyielding, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Thoughts once attributed to gods. Coincidence?

Intricate, complex parts moving with synchronization according to known physical laws - a Glorious Engine! A Machine, vast, unstoppable, and currently not understood.

But, through its own mechanisms, this Machine has created a race powerful enough to understand even its ineffable, intricate dance.

We are this race, coming, slowly but surely, to understand this Machine. Each law, each force, is understood and subjected to our will in sequence.

This Glorious Engine, strong, complex, but thoughtless has, through its very own processes, brought thought into existence.

Each of us is a microcosm, a tiny fragment of this Machine, this Glorious Engine which governs and provides law to the universe - and itself is subject to them.

It is here that Humanity steps in. The Machine created us, pushing us into existence according to its laws. We are its tiny fragments, small machines after our own fashion.

The Engine persists. Our understanding of it progresses. Will we understand it? Or will we fall, collapsing under the weight of our failure

New knowledge is necessary. New ideas required. But they must conform to what is physically possible; after all, the laws of physics are the laws of the universe are the laws of the Machine!

Glory to the God Machine! Glory to the Great Engine! May there be understanding of its laws, and may we use the Engine as an example for all time!

========================

Anyways, this is a possible theology based on worship of machines and science - a possible theology for the structures and beliefs of the Adeptus Mechanicus!

Its funny because the church back in the day chopped all of the physicst's heads off for even speaking a word about how the stars, planets and other such things worked when really they should have embraced them because the laws of physics embody an all powerful creater who put a set of laws to govern his universe. Funny that they didnt. They might have a shred of credability these days if they had.

Yet Catholic priests were more or less the first practitioners of what was to become modern science.

Except it wasn't about proving God wrong, it was about discovering and exploring God's works. Funny world huh?

Yup, thats how it works.

Its very easy to create a god out of something. I find the Ad Mech to be a very logical conclusion of a secular society. Mankind has a inner need to worship something, but doesn't want to worship "God" so they look elsewhere. They end up with the stuff of the universe and worshipping it, and its study, as a god. They may not openly admit its what they are doing, but they are. Eventually they will break down and admit that science is their god, it may take generations to do so but it will happen.

Odd as it sounds, I find the idea of a machine 'god' to make some sense in a way. When you consider that one of the best protections against the encroachment of other daemonic or warp-based entities is incredibly strong, pervasive belief in something, it would make sense to "protect" your technology in that manner - especially since we have numerous and myriad examples of how relatively vulnerable to possession and corruption Imperium tech can be (for whatever reason. Alot of Imperial tech seems to actually stem from warp technology.. I mean stuff like MIUs seems to be warp based even if I'm remembering Hereticus correctly). Sort of like a psychic firewall or something I guess.

The problem of course is that stuff like that is hard to control when its been created, and that leads to alot of the problems the AdMech actually have, so it is an imperfect solution. But then again, there are few ideal solutions for problems when it comes to the Imperium.

I taste Leibniz and positivism.

Since you're a philosophy major as well I can ask you: the Eldar harlequin, do they not remind you of Nietzsche's use of laughter?

I think that the whole "humanity worshipped science as a God" should not be taken literaly.
It is merely an empty accusation of a church which favours dogma and superstition over science and understanding.
In fact the fear of the evil, imoral scientist who blasphemes against the one, true god can sometimes still be found amongst those
of a particularly evangelical persuasion.

Its not entirely unfounded. There are lots of Scientists that venomently oppose religion, its also used by Aetheists to a great extent.

I myself have no problem with science as a christian. The actual facts, which are often covered up, do not conflict with creationisim/God or are a plain neutral.

Grey Templar wrote:Its not entirely unfounded. There are lots of Scientists that venomently oppose religion, its also used by Aetheists to a great extent.

I myself have no problem with science as a christian. The actual facts, which are often covered up, do not conflict with creationisim/God or are a plain neutral.

As a Catholic, science kind of cements my beliefs about God.

Grey Templar wrote:Its not entirely unfounded. There are lots of Scientists that venomently oppose religion, its also used by Aetheists to a great extent.

I myself have no problem with science as a christian. The actual facts, which are often covered up, do not conflict with creationisim/God or are a plain neutral.

In order to worship something you generaly have to ascribe supernatural abilities to it. Since science is, at it's heart, the rejection of the supernatural in favour of rational explanations a
scientist can never "worship" science. He most certainly can worship god ( since god is commonly described as omnipotent and omniscient the adherance to natural laws, even logic, wouldn't be necesarily required for his existence, (athough this point has it's own problems)) without stoping to be a scientist.
Your assertion that the "actual facts" are often covered up is irrational and pure, 100% conspiracy bs.
Creationism ( as in young earth creationism ) is utterly unsuported by all avaiable scientifical results and generaly no longer accepted by the major churches and the majority of the scientific community.

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Its not entirely unfounded. There are lots of Scientists that venomently oppose religion, its also used by Aetheists to a great extent.

I myself have no problem with science as a christian. The actual facts, which are often covered up, do not conflict with creationisim/God or are a plain neutral.

Creationism ( as in young earth creationism ) is utterly unsuported by all avaiable scientifical results and generaly no longer accepted by the major churches and the majority of the scientific community.

I don't want to get into a debate over it, but there is plenty of evidence to support it if you bother to look.

As a fellow physicist, I can see your logical progression. Science is not against Religion, it seeks evidence to prove or disprove theories.

But in reality we talk about models, not about laws. A model fits the current evidence, but as new evidence is uncovered or observed the model changes. Science is dynamic, not static. A true scientist is willing and open to be challenged and is willing to admit that they are wrong if new evidence comes to light.

Reading things like Dr Richard Dawkins, whilst interesting can be very detrimental as it sets Science and Religion on opposing bearings. It seems the engine for this antagonism in the last decade has been "Creationism/Intelligent design vs Darwinian Evolution" conflict.

Many Scientists in the Astro-physics realm still hold firm religious beliefs, not flying in the face of science but there are still massive unknowns in our knowledge of Quantum Theory, origins of the universe, Relativity, Unified theory. They could still be right about religion. I really don't care, as I am terrestrial Physicist e.g. Measuring the size of NGC 274 might be interesting but it doesn't help us back here on Earth, better the research money went from SETI into more pragmatic and proactive things. If we can get into space with Viable space craft we can start doing some serious research and exploration. Otherwise we are better off sorting out things like finding more super-conducting alloys, Finding the Higgs-Boson or getting Nuclear Fusion off the ground, instead of debating god (which may or may not exist) or look for aliens (which may or may not exist).

Back OT I do like you premise, it's food for thought.

Grey Templar wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Its not entirely unfounded. There are lots of Scientists that venomently oppose religion, its also used by Aetheists to a great extent.

I myself have no problem with science as a christian. The actual facts, which are often covered up, do not conflict with creationisim/God or are a plain neutral.

Creationism ( as in young earth creationism ) is utterly unsuported by all avaiable scientifical results and generaly no longer accepted by the major churches and the majority of the scientific community.

I don't want to get into a debate over it, but there is plenty of evidence to support it if you bother to look.

This is a flame-war invitation.

Everyone take cover! You get a 5+ cover save from the flame war.

I take cover in a bunker of logic. 2++ save.

Great, Dakka's 1st Religious War...What we gonna call it "The Promethium Conflict". "The Great Flame Schizm". "The Great Purge".

Play nicely please people !

KingDeath wrote:I think that the whole "humanity worshipped science as a God" should not be taken literaly.
It is merely an empty accusation of a church which favours dogma and superstition over science and understanding.
In fact the fear of the evil, imoral scientist who blasphemes against the one, true god can sometimes still be found amongst those
of a particularly evangelical persuasion.

KingDeath hits the nail on the head; the statement is revealing about the culture and beliefs of the 41st millennium, not the those of the Golden Age.

I'd add that the Golden Age/Dark Age of Technology background serves a literary purpose; it is intended to place the shiny, positivist science fiction of the genre's 'golden age' into the setting's semi-mythical past as a contrast to the gloomy new wave/cyberpunk from which Warhammer 40,000 draws its influences.

Hummm.... That gives me an idea for a river troll carrying a Skorcha. Possibly as a Killa Kan count as...

Anyway, back on topic. Interesting idea. I think the golden age of tech is an era that should be better explored by the black library, as it is the time when allot of cool stuff happend.

I should've worried about posting about religion.

Anyways, there is actually a lot of philosophy in 40k, but this is one of the most intriguing things ever.

I agree that the Black Library has a smash-up story here - humankind in military dominance, swatting aside all opposition, then falling to her own vices.

Aliens are real.

I saw a UFO over Boston on Christmas Eve (technically morning) 2006 or 2007 at about 3:15am.

It flew from the west and went directly east at incredible speeds.

The light it generated (quite a bit, unless it was closer to me than I could tell) was bright green.

I at first thought it was a shooting star (I actually said "oooo shooting star") until it made a rapid zig-zag over Boston before moving straight up out of sight.

The only other person I have ever heard of seeing the same thing was someone who called into "Loveline" the following april.

He claimed to have caught it on his cellphone.

I've searched online but have been unable to find any video of the same encounter.

I now am convinced aliens are real. I no longer doubt anyone who says they believe either.

Er....A UFO is an unidentified flying object, not necessarily alien. If you cannot Positive ID it, by definition it's a UFO. It has nothing to do with being Alien or not.

I Rest my case.

DeffDred wrote:Aliens are real.

I saw a UFO over Boston on Christmas Eve (technically morning) 2006 or 2007 at about 3:15am.

It flew from the west and went directly east at incredible speeds.

The light it generated (quite a bit, unless it was closer to me than I could tell) was bright green.

I at first thought it was a shooting star (I actually said "oooo shooting star") until it made a rapid zig-zag over Boston before moving straight up out of sight.

The only other person I have ever heard of seeing the same thing was someone who called into "Loveline" the following april.

He claimed to have caught it on his cellphone.

I've searched online but have been unable to find any video of the same encounter.

I now am convinced aliens are real. I no longer doubt anyone who says they believe either.

And this has to do with the topic in what way?

or look for aliens (which may or may not exist).

UFO is a generic term for alien craft. I saw something not of this world. A physical impossiblity.

An "alien" thing to me.

Make fun of me all you want. I know what I saw.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I am a double major in physics and philsophy. I have often considered how curious the philosophy of the Adeptus Mechanicus was, and how early mentions of the Golden Age (sometimes called the Dark Age) reveal that "humanity worshipped science as a God."

I believe I have seen how this theology could develop. The following is intended to be read in-universe, as a founding document of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

===================================
The planets orbit and rotate, as though gears.

The stars glow with nuclear fire, as reactors.

Black holes drain energy, as heat-sinks.

All of the phenomena observed in astronomy float and dance in intricate patterns, fueled and governed by the laws of physics.

Ah, the laws of physics - unyielding, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Thoughts once attributed to gods. Coincidence?

Intricate, complex parts moving with synchronization according to known physical laws - a Glorious Engine! A Machine, vast, unstoppable, and currently not understood.

But, through its own mechanisms, this Machine has created a race powerful enough to understand even its ineffable, intricate dance.

We are this race, coming, slowly but surely, to understand this Machine. Each law, each force, is understood and subjected to our will in sequence.

This Glorious Engine, strong, complex, but thoughtless has, through its very own processes, brought thought into existence.

Each of us is a microcosm, a tiny fragment of this Machine, this Glorious Engine which governs and provides law to the universe - and itself is subject to them.

It is here that Humanity steps in. The Machine created us, pushing us into existence according to its laws. We are its tiny fragments, small machines after our own fashion.

The Engine persists. Our understanding of it progresses. Will we understand it? Or will we fall, collapsing under the weight of our failure

New knowledge is necessary. New ideas required. But they must conform to what is physically possible; after all, the laws of physics are the laws of the universe are the laws of the Machine!

Glory to the God Machine! Glory to the Great Engine! May there be understanding of its laws, and may we use the Engine as an example for all time!

========================

You wrote that? Well done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

English Assassin wrote:

KingDeath wrote:I think that the whole "humanity worshipped science as a God" should not be taken literaly.
It is merely an empty accusation of a church which favours dogma and superstition over science and understanding.
In fact the fear of the evil, imoral scientist who blasphemes against the one, true god can sometimes still be found amongst those
of a particularly evangelical persuasion.

KingDeath hits the nail on the head; the statement is revealing about the culture and beliefs of the 41st millennium, not the those of the Golden Age.

I'd add that the Golden Age/Dark Age of Technology background serves a literary purpose; it is intended to place the shiny, positivist science fiction of the genre's 'golden age' into the setting's semi-mythical past as a contrast to the gloomy new wave/cyberpunk from which Warhammer 40,000 draws its influences.

That is how I understand it too. It's more of criticism leveled by the current super-religious Imperium at the "Dark Age". Silly, Dark-Agers worshipped their "Science"-god-thing.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
===================================
The planets orbit and rotate, as though gears.
...
Glory to the God Machine! Glory to the Great Engine! May there be understanding of its laws, and may we use the Engine as an example for all time!
========================
Anyways, this is a possible theology based on worship of machines and science - a possible theology for the structures and beliefs of the Adeptus Mechanicus!

This is great stuff. Really enjoy it. I thought Deist when I read through it first.

The classic philosophy arguments get kinda thrown into a different light with the existence of the warp (the arguments against free will get more interesting at the least, what with all the mechanical and purely physical theories having to account for that soul stuff)

DeffDred wrote:

or look for aliens (which may or may not exist).

UFO is a generic term for alien craft. I saw something not of this world. A physical impossiblity.
An "alien" thing to me.
Make fun of me all you want. I know what I saw.

That was Santa Clause.

Or possibly Sante Claws? (best Xmas film ever)

OT - I like the term Omnissiah, it has such a nice ring to it. I still cannot reconcile the Omnissiah, emperor, Void Dragon imprisoned thing on Mars. I'm sure it's simple and I have got the wrong end of the stick...Anyone care to explain it in layman's terms.

The Emperor imprisoned the Void Dragon on Mars.

The presense of the Void Dragon causes the Adeptus Mechanicus to form during the Age of Strife. Their holy texts fortell of the coming of the Omnissiah, a living Avatar of the machine god in physical form.

The Emperor comes to Mars shortly before the Great Crusade to make an alliance with the Ad Mech, as outlined in his cunning plan. He displays his psychic powers by fixing a machine with but a touch, he is then hailed as the Omnissiah as a result.

mwnciboo wrote:Great, Dakka's 1st Religious War...What we gonna call it "The Promethium Conflict". "The Great Flame Schizm". "The Great Purge".

Lol, my thoughts exactly.

Okay, so the Void Dragon really has nothing to do with any of the story then, I mean how does the presence of the Void Dragon form the Mechanicum? Does it get lose and smash everything up, and they go "Damn we need bigger, better guns" or is it some illogical fluff canon thing? or is it just a vehicle for the story and has no real reason for being other than that. I am so Off-topic right now, i promise to bring it back, i just need to know how the Void Dragon helped form the Mechanicum.