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Entropic Strike triggers off of hits against vehicles, however you do not allocate hits to vehicle squadrons. You allocate glancing or penetrating hits to vehicle squadrons. So what happens when you attack a vehicle squadron with a model that has Entropic Strike?

I see three possible interpretations:

1 - Nothing happens. Hits are not allocated so the ability does not trigger against squadrons of vehicles.
2 - All vehicles in the squadron suffer Entropic Strike. The model(s) are attacking the squadron, and since nothing is allocated until damage results are rolled, that must mean that all vehicles in the squadron suffer the effects.
3 - Each individual vehicle in the squadron takes hits individually. If a unit of Leman Russ Battle Tanks is assaulted by a unit of Scarabs and only one vehicle is in assault range, only that vehicle suffers hits from Entropic Strike. After Entropic Strike is applied, damage results are rolled and allocated across the unit using the majority armor value. If multiple vehicles are struck, hits are applied to those vehicles that are struck from the models that struck them and the same process is used.

Personally I think that #3 is most likely to be the way it's ruled, but from a RAW standpoint I think #2 is most likely. The unit is struck, penetration rolls are made, then glancing or penetrating hits are allocated, so it seems that logically since the individual vehicles are not taken into account until that step, they would not be taken into account when Entropic Strike is resolved and the unit would suffer as a whole.

What do you think?

Edit: Technically there would also be a 4th possibility, but I don't think it particularly likely to apply. Entropic Strike could apply only to those vehicles against which glancing or penetrating hits are allocated, meaning you would have to roll before modifying the vehicles armor. This makes scarabs absolutely useless against vehicle squadrons which I think is against the spirit of the rules and so I doubt it's the way GW will rule it.

1) Isn't valid. It doesnt make any sense. Where do the hits go?

2)Way too OP

3) Makes sense I guess.

I hadn't even considered this issue...


None of the proposed solutions work from a rules perspective. And, this is going to be a somewhat common occurrence. So, until the FAQ, discuss with opponent or TO.

Yeah the issue is that the mechanic itself is broken and does not function as printed, so in other words #1 is probably closest to RAW, which is to say the RAW doesn't work. #3 is how I think they are most likely to rule it, and probably a compromise that most people would be OK with but it does sort of penalize the Scarabs unless they can catch a majority of the vehicles in the squadrons in combat and hit all of them. Otherwise they reduce the armor of one vehicle and can do nothing to the squad with their actual attacks, which is obviously not how it's supposed to work.

I think the bigger issue is vehicle squadrons in general, which are a terribly written rule and should be abolished for 6th edition. I would rather see units of vehicles purchased together, then operate independently and each count as a separate KP, much like how Sanguinary Priests are purchased as one Elites choice but are all Independent Characters. It gets rid of this sort of BS.

Well it also doesn't say you get a cover save from the strike so really the only fair thing to do is this.

Allocate hits to each vehicle. Make cover saves if appropriate. Any hits that are left over roll for Enth Strike.

MJThurston wrote:Well it also doesn't say you get a cover save from the strike so really the only fair thing to do is this.

Allocate hits to each vehicle. Make cover saves if appropriate. Any hits that are left over roll for Enth Strike.

You won't get Cover saves as they aren't taken for "hits"

Cover saves also don't apply to melee attacks, but the problem still exists with ranged weapons. You can shoot a vehicle squadron and deny cover to them if you can completely see one of the vehicles, but then you roll to glance/pen as normal and your opponent allocates the glance/pen before you roll results.

Regardless, it doesn't work properly.

Aldarionn wrote:You can shoot a vehicle squadron and deny cover to them if you can completely see one of the vehicles,

Huh?

I would think that only vehicles that are struck by a model with entropic strike are suffered.

And as I understand the rule, if you hit (not glance or pen) a vehicle, the armor value is reduced. I suppose if you have squadrons of vehicles, the controlling player of the squadron can allocate evenly (or as close to it as possible) across the squadron.

So if you (the necron player) score 6 hits against a squadron of Russ tanks (say 3), their armor will be taken down to 11 for each tank.

Make sense? Am I wrong?

puma713 wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:You can shoot a vehicle squadron and deny cover to them if you can completely see one of the vehicles,

Huh?

I don't know what he's saying here, but it's incorrect. When firing at a squadron of vehicles, you determine if the entire squadron gets a cover save the same way you do non-vehicles, but with the threshold >50% of each vehicle.

So, if you see more than 50% of more than 50% of the vehicles in the squadron, you deny cover.

Why not try distrubuting them evenly between the vehicles.

I.e. you are fight three leman russ tanks. You score 9 entropic strikes after rolling the 4+'s. So all the tanks have there armour reduced by three. If you have an odd amount you use the majority armour reduction.
I.e You score 8 entropic strikes after rolling the 4+'s. Thus you would reduce the armour by three but if you only scored 7 for example you would only reduce it by 2.

Does this not seem the practical way of doing it?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

MJThurston wrote:Well it also doesn't say you get a cover save from the strike so really the only fair thing to do is this.

Allocate hits to each vehicle. Make cover saves if appropriate. Any hits that are left over roll for Enth Strike.

You won't get Cover saves as they aren't taken for "hits"

but "The hit" is discarded from Glancing hits and Penetrating hits if the cover save is rolled.

A Harp of dissonance hits a fast Skimmer(AV 13 in the Arc of the Harp-firer) that moved flat-out, Necron player then declares that the hit is made and rolls for entropic strike, Passes, Skimmer is now -1 AV all around(AV 12 in the arc it is in), Necron player then scores a Glance , Skimmer player then rolls his save and passes.

What happens now?

Technically; the hit is discarded and therefore no entropic strike roll could have been made, if no entropic strike was made then the hit could never have glanced, which means the cover save could never have happened.

Hits are not "Suffered" until the Armour is penetrated or glanced; I expect Entropic Strike will be errata'd to specify Glancing or Penetrating hits.

Grakmar wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:You can shoot a vehicle squadron and deny cover to them if you can completely see one of the vehicles,

Huh?

I don't know what he's saying here, but it's incorrect. When firing at a squadron of vehicles, you determine if the entire squadron gets a cover save the same way you do non-vehicles, but with the threshold >50% of each vehicle.

So, if you see more than 50% of more than 50% of the vehicles in the squadron, you deny cover.

Right, my bad. I misread that section. I didn't catch the second part that you then apply unit cover rules (IE more than 50% of models in the unit have cover = unit has cover).

This actually gets even stranger with ranged attacks, because you do not target one vehicle independent of the rest of the unit. You target the whole unit and hit the whole unit, then use the common armor value, or if there is a difference you use the armor value of the closest visible vehicle on the facing you are in......so if I fire at a unit of Land Speeders with a Harp of Disonance do you remove 1 from all facings of the armor on a 4+?

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Hits are not "Suffered" until the Armour is penetrated or glanced; I expect Entropic Strike will be errata'd to specify Glancing or Penetrating hits.

If you're implying that entropic rolls would only occur after a hit has been determined to glance or pen, I don't find that likely due to scarabs being S3, and therefore unable to damage a vehicle normally.

I would say that if you're triggering entropic strike via melee attacks then the vehicle you're in B2B with is the one that loses the armor but you can allocate the glance/pen per normal. (Keeping in mind that this doesn't hinder the squadron because, I believe, you still roll against the average highest armor in the facing the attack is coming from so as long as you have 3+ in the squadron you're still having to roll against the highest value)

For the shooting attack entropic strike weapon(s), I would say that the armor reducing effect gets allocated similar to hits against a standard unit but the glance/pen result is allocated as per standard vehicle rules.

As for cover saves and the like, if the cover save happens after the result of the glance/pen roll then it would have no effect on entropic strike because you still "hit" but the cover save negated the effect of the damage. If the cover save is supposed to be rolled directly after the roll-to-hit result then it would negate entropic strike because the hit never happened.

Kel - huh? I think you are missing context

If you reread the cover save rules, the "penetrating or glancing" hit is discarded - you cannot discard the hit, as you are discarding after the hit has been determined. Context tells you they are just short-handing glancing or penetrating "hits" there.

Squadrons - you have "hit" the unit of vehicles, meaning every vehicle takes the hit; so number 2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kel - huh? I think you are missing context

If you reread the cover save rules, the "penetrating or glancing" hit is discarded - you cannot discard the hit, as you are discarding after the hit has been determined. Context tells you they are just short-handing glancing or penetrating "hits" there.

Squadrons - you have "hit" the unit of vehicles, meaning every vehicle takes the hit; so number 2.

See that's the conclusion I keep coming to as well, but it just seems so incredibly powerful and such a massive counter to vehicle squadrons in general. A couple of Harbingers of Transmogrification with Harps of Dissonance could easily reduce squads of Leman Russes to low enough armor values for things like Tesla Destructors to pen on front armor. Granted it's only a 50% chance per hit, but with MEQ Ballistic Skill it could give Necrons a solid edge against armies that run a bunch of ordnance. Lord knows they need it though.

Aldarionn wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kel - huh? I think you are missing context

If you reread the cover save rules, the "penetrating or glancing" hit is discarded - you cannot discard the hit, as you are discarding after the hit has been determined. Context tells you they are just short-handing glancing or penetrating "hits" there.

Squadrons - you have "hit" the unit of vehicles, meaning every vehicle takes the hit; so number 2.

See that's the conclusion I keep coming to as well, but it just seems so incredibly powerful and such a massive counter to vehicle squadrons in general. A couple of Harbingers of Transmogrification with Harps of Dissonance could easily reduce squads of Leman Russes to low enough armor values for things like Tesla Destructors to pen on front armor. Granted it's only a 50% chance per hit, but with MEQ Ballistic Skill it could give Necrons a solid edge against armies that run a bunch of ordnance. Lord knows they need it though.

To me it seems the same as Tau marker lights.

You don't take a cover save to hits, only pens/glances. Yes it seems pretty strong, however I don't think it's broken strong.

I am so confused...
Why GW, why?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Squadrons - you have "hit" the unit of vehicles, meaning every vehicle takes the hit; so number 2.

I cannot find anything in the rules to support this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kel - huh? I think you are missing context

If you reread the cover save rules, the "penetrating or glancing" hit is discarded - you cannot discard the hit, as you are discarding after the hit has been determined. Context tells you they are just short-handing glancing or penetrating "hits" there.

Squadrons - you have "hit" the unit of vehicles, meaning every vehicle takes the hit; so number 2.

Can we think of any other special rules that trigger on "hits" to vehicles?

Sorry, I have been drinking today and cannot compile most of the rules from the top of my head(and also cannot care enough to read every codex at the moment in search).

I know markerlights, but they are a full special effect(only capable of hits; and those hits have effects).

At any rate; a "hit" is a specific terminology(a successful roll to strike based of the chart and the attackers BS, WS, or the vehicles Movement rate in its last movement phase or current damage effects); context or not, the vehicle cover rules state that: "If the save is passed, the hit is discarded and no roll is made on the vehicle damage table."

Context only comes into play when specific rules are not invoked; if it only denies penetrating or Glancing hits, it should say as such; since there is a difference between a vehicle being hit by an attack, and suffering a penetrating or Glancing hit.

imweasel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Squadrons - you have "hit" the unit of vehicles, meaning every vehicle takes the hit; so number 2.

I cannot find anything in the rules to support this.

Iamweasel is correct on this; The unit is hit, no individual vehicles are hit.

An individual vehicle will suffer a glancing or a Penetrating hit, yes; but every vehicle in the unit is not hit any more than every model in an infantry unit is hit from a shooting attack(such as half of the DE special weapons that have specific effects on models hit; or a Psyk-out bomb).

I do love this claim though; as with the above, a single Psyker in a PBS, Henchmen unit with multiple psykers, or Warlock unit(or any unit with a single psyker in it, but the psyker not under) the Blast marker of a Psyk-out bomb(or mind-strike missile) means that every single psyker in the unit is hit and suffers a perils.

Kel - so you believe they discarded the hit there? I dont, and context suggests otherwise. The "hit" occurred, the result of the hit (penetrating or glancing hit) didnt - if you still claim otherwise then Quantum shielding still goes down on a saved penetrating hit - as you say, the "hit" is discarded, but the Penrtrating Hit, a separate term, is not.

But with the way it's worded in kel's post, you roll the cover save BEFORE vehicle damage which means the initial attack would have failed outright and thus no entropic strike.

You roll AFTER armour penetration has occured, which is AFTER The hit has already occured, obviously, and is AFTER entropic strike

ROll to hit -> Entropic Strike -> roll to armour penetrate -> roll for cover save.

It obviously doesn't work as written (and I even mentioned this way back when I talked about the Entropic Strike in the big rumor thread), so it will have to be FAQ'd.


Until then, I plan to play it that the 'hits' are evenly spread amongst the squadron with the player owning the squadron deciding where any odd hits are allocated amongst his squadron members.

So If I hit a unit of 3 Kans with 17 hits, I'd then say that each Kan suffered 5 hits and then my opponent would pick which two get the last two hits.

Then I'd roll D6's for each hit and see how the armor was affected on each individual Kan.


None of that follows any known rule, but its the best way to play IMHO until something else comes out from GW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kel - so you believe they discarded the hit there? I dont, and context suggests otherwise. The "hit" occurred, the result of the hit (penetrating or glancing hit) didnt - if you still claim otherwise then Quantum shielding still goes down on a saved penetrating hit - as you say, the "hit" is discarded, but the Penrtrating Hit, a separate term, is not.

Hit is a defined term in the rules; Context goes out the window when you use a defined term.

Your last bit does not make any sense at all; If the hit is discarded, then you no longer hit, if you no longer hit then the vehicle cannot have suffered from the penetrating hit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You roll AFTER armour penetration has occured, which is AFTER The hit has already occured, obviously, and is AFTER entropic strike

ROll to hit -> Entropic Strike -> roll to armour penetrate -> roll for cover save.

This sequence is 100 percent correct.

How I would play this and not supported by the rules.

Vehicle squadron is attacked with entropic weapons.

Find the number of hits.

Roll entropic strikes to see how many 'successes'.

Assign those 'successes' to vehicles. Each vehicle must take one entropic 'success' before another vehicle can take one.

Lower armor values accordingly.

Roll for pens and glances.

Assign pens and glances.

Roll cover saves, if applicable.

My problem? How do I figure out the AV of what I am supposed to roll for? The 'majority' is I suppose what I go with...

Not raw, probably not rai, but how I think we will roll with it.

imweasel wrote:
My problem? How do I figure out the AV of what I am supposed to roll for? The 'majority' is I suppose what I go with...

Not raw, probably not rai, but how I think we will roll with it.

That problem has always plagued vehicle squadrons that have different armor values. For shooting it specifies you use the nearest vehicle, but for combat they just don't say (which has been a problem for Leman Russ squadrons, for example, that have some back armor 10 & 11).

I definitely think as a workaround that follows the rest of the way the rules work you use the majority armor value or the highest if there is no majority.

Hit is a defined term; hit is not.

You discard the hit, and dont roll on the dmage chart. The rule does NOT say the Penetrating hit was discarded (in your contention) so it isnt.

Context is very, very clear on this, you discard the penetrating or glancing hit.

Well then if "hit" is not a defined term while "Hit" is, then Shooting never does anything, since you only roll a d6 and consult the chart to determine if a "hit" converts to a wound.

Etropic Strike also uses the lower case.

As does anything haywire.

So if "hit" is undefined; then the entire game breaks.

The only time there is a difference between a capitalized term and a lower case is when the same term is used for 2 different situations; Wound ad wound is an example of this, the Capitalized "Wound" is in reference to the model's statline, lower case is in reference to that which a model may suffer or save.

Interestingly enough Bjorn's invul save specifically negates the penetrating/Glancing hit; not the hit itself.