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So, if you join a character to a unit, you do not change the unit type. Thus, you can join a skaven warlord on bonebreaker, and they may still be stomped/thunderstomped. If a unit is of a unique type by its nature (ala Skink/Krox) no stomp is possible.

What if a Wargor BSB joined a Doombull, then goes one wide to avoid attacks back? Is the unit stompable?

If they join non-MI, such as Gors, 1 wide is still 1 Gor. And the 2 Characters would be forced to be beside them. Or one beside in 2 rows. Like:

Char|gor
Char|gor
|gor
|gor etc

p.97 and 98 of the BRB show how they are positioned. You can displace some members of a row, but if you don't have room, or they are different bases, the chars go to the side or second row.

That's the way I understand it anyway.

No, you can indeed have char (next rank) char, if you are one wide. They dont move to the side, thats only for when you dont "fit" neatly into the unit

You can indeed t'stomp / stomp as long as they are of the 3 types allowed, and characters dont change the unit type. So you could indeed stomp on a bonebreaker skaven clanrat unit.

My question is what happens if the unit is *only* the two characters. In other words, the unit consists of a single wargor, and a single doombull.

No, you can indeed have char (next rank) char, if you are one wide. They dont move to the side, thats only for when you dont "fit" neatly into the unit

Yes, and Gors and Doombull/Wargor as my example, don't fit. As it's MI + I, so they would appear exactly as I specified if they were 1 wide.

Yeah, you can have just characters in a unit.

Dosen't stomping require base contact with the unit you wanna stomp?

That could keep infantry safe behind MI chars.

But if you're adding MI to I, they have to go alongside. There's a few specific examples of that in the book.

However, it's irrelevant, since he's talking about 2 chars of MI + MI and they'd be immune to stomp anyway.

Thunderstomp is like stomp but with d6 hits, so it requires base contact, if you only have contact with MI you can't do it. Two MI chars can take up the front of a 6 wide infantry unit for lulz.

They can't push out infantry. They would be pushed out. They are wide enough the infantry could be present in the 1st row. So you put a character there alongside. If you want it "6 wide" you would put 6 dudes and 1 Char. That's under the heading When Footprints Collide on p. 98 of the BRB. If you want them 1 wide, the Char still goes alongside and is ignored for ranks. If you want them in the front rank, you would actually lose rank bonuses making it happen. But even a 1 wide infantry unit would have the MI next to it and could be stomped/tstomped.

"If a character cannot be placed within the unit, or beside the front rank, then he cannot attempt to join that unit. "

Hmm true you'd need 3 MI chars (math fail), and ofcourse no command.

Sneaky tip, if you'r unit containing an MI character gets multicharged with a big unit and a cornertouch monster, try to make way to the monster leaving the monster only in contact with unstompable models, make sure that char can take it on though.

You stomp units, not models, and the stomps/thunderstomps are distributed as shooting.

So let's suppose you had a 2 deep formation of Ungor with a Gorebull on the end. They are flank charged by a hydra, which can only contact the gorebull. The hydra, as I understand it, still thunderstomps, hits distributed as shooting, and so smooshing ungor.

This is all kind of derailing from my original question, though- what happens if the unit is *only* two characters, one of which is stompable, one of which is not.

3 MI still can't push out In. The unit is still Infantry. It's not that they're just too wide, but also too deep. Characters have to go alongside a unit if they don't exactly match some combination of the base model (like cavalry matching 2 infantry deep). And each Char is handled individually when placed.

DukeRustfield wrote:3 MI still can't push out In. The unit is still Infantry. It's not that they're just too wide, but also too deep. Characters have to go alongside a unit if they don't exactly match some combination of the base model (like cavalry matching 2 infantry deep). And each Char is handled individually when placed.

Quit saying that and open said BRB (pg.98) and look at how the chaos cav character ranks up neatly with the warriors.
You only go to the side in the case you'r footprint won't match the smaller base unit.

@RZ: You're right i got confused somwhere, meh noone's perfect.

And for the 100th time you're mentioning MI and infantry. Whose base doesn't match. I even mention the cavalry model matching infantry. MI doesn't. MI chars cannot displace infantry. Ever. Done. Period. Over. They stand to the side or they don't join.

DukeRustfield wrote:And for the 100th time you're mentioning MI and infantry. Whose base doesn't match. I even mention the cavalry model matching infantry. MI doesn't. MI chars cannot displace infantry. Ever. Done. Period. Over. They stand to the side or they don't join.

Why would a Doombull (MI; 40mmx40mm base) not be able to join a unit of Ungor (Infantry; 20mmx20mm bases)? Page 98 specifically states:

If a character's base is larger than one model, but has exactly the same size area (or 'footprint') as two or more models, simply displace those models to the back rank and position the character in their place.

It can join.

It doesn't have EXACTLY the same size footprint.

They're 25mm vs. 40mm. That's Gor. Ungor are indeed 20.

Uh... okay? I guess I'm not sure what you're arguing at this point.

It does have EXACTLY the same footprint as 4 ungors (which falls under the "or more" clause), so he can displace infantry models and doesn't have to go to one side.

Am I missing something?

Cuz I was talking about Gors. Which wouldn't work 25x25. Then he brought up Ungors, which would. And I didn't see the switch.

I did, s'cool like i said noones perfect.

DukeRustfield wrote:They can't push out infantry. They would be pushed out. They are wide enough the infantry could be present in the 1st row. So you put a character there alongside. If you want it "6 wide" you would put 6 dudes and 1 Char. That's under the heading When Footprints Collide on p. 98 of the BRB. If you want them 1 wide, the Char still goes alongside and is ignored for ranks. If you want them in the front rank, you would actually lose rank bonuses making it happen. But even a 1 wide infantry unit would have the MI next to it and could be stomped/tstomped.

"If a character cannot be placed within the unit, or beside the front rank, then he cannot attempt to join that unit. "

To recap your point Rustfield, the wargor BSB has to stand next to the doombull, and cannot stand behind him in conga formation, right? I think it's a valid point, though as RZ notes t-stomp is vs units and not models. (Honestly I hadn't conceived t-stomp in this way: with the example of SNK units, any day of the week I would have assumed a monster got to t-stomp skinks into goo, because said gribbly is touching and fighting and being poked by the little guys; I never would have thought that their unique / mixed status as a unit precluded them from being stepped on ... mostly because it makes no sense to me apart from a RAW game mechanic.)

Red_Zeke wrote:This is all kind of derailing from my original question, though- what happens if the unit is *only* two characters, one of which is stompable, one of which is not.

I got nothing RZ. No idea what the category of that MI + IN unit is (I guess we could slap another 'Unique' on it but that feels like a cop out as with SNK), and so no idea how t-stomp works with it. My guess is RAW it doesn't ... Though if I were to slam a monster in and base the wargor (which as Rustfield shows is doable from the front, rear and one flank), I would have expected to t-stomp the wargor before having read this thread

- Salvage

I think a few different things were brought up and it got confusing. At least for me.

A LONE Doombull (character) can be joined by a lone Wargor (character). The Doomy is MI the Wargor is I. I don't BELIEVE they can conga because they are different base sizes. They have to go side-by-side and if there's no room, they can't join.

You couldn't stomp them because they are MI. I think they differ from true Skink/Kroxigor in that this is just a character joining, not an actual Unique construction of a unit type. Ironically, if you had the Wargor BSB and joined the Doombull to it, you could stomp it, because it would be infantry not MI. It depends on which character is joining which unit (i.e., who has to stand off to the side). That's what determines the base unit type.

Again, I could be wrong, but that's how I'm seeing it. See page 97 What unit can I Join.

DukeRustfield wrote:You couldn't stomp them because they are MI. I think they differ from true Skink/Kroxigor in that this is just a character joining, not an actual Unique construction of a unit type. Ironically, if you had the Wargor BSB and joined the Doombull to it, you could stomp it, because it would be infantry not MI. It depends on which character is joining which unit (i.e., who has to stand off to the side). That's what determines the base unit type.

Sooooo what happens when they start the game holding hands? Do you nominate which one is joining the other one, and which one is the primary member of the unit? (And is there a reason to ever have the wargor be the dom in the relationship? Perhaps IN get some benefit over MI that I'm forgetting ...)

Frankly that almost smells of the sort of Semantic Shenanigans that I hated in 7th edition

- Salvage

Boss Salvage wrote:Sooooo what happens when they start the game holding hands

They can't. One has to go first. P. 142. The character can enter battle on its own OR as part of a unit "they are allowed to join."

The Doombull could go down solo. And then the BSB could deploy as part of that unit. But then it would be part of the MI. You could also reverse this, but it would be clear which came first. One is always joining the other. The one that is the joinee determines the unit type.


A weird thing I thought of while in the shower (sad I was thinking of this in the shower). Is that if you have a Stegadon run up to a Doombull + Wargor team where the Doom joined the Wargor and thus the unit type was Infantry. Even if the Stegadon was only in base contact with the Doombull, such as if it came on the flank, it could still Thunderstomp. Because the rule states you're stomping a an infantry UNIT in base contact, and the Doombull, although MI, is in an infantry unit. Not only that, but the hits are distributed as shooting. So the Stegadon could Tstomp the Wargor to death and the excess wounds carry over to the Doombull. I suppose the normally immune Doombull is stabbed in the back by the pathetic Infantry models dying around him. HOWEVER, if he still survives, then he is immune to Tstomp the next round because the unit type shifts to MI as he's the only model left...

To be fair, this isn't something I ever intend to attempt. It just occurred to me as a question in one of the other threads.

To be honest, I'm not at all a fan of the unstompable Skrox, because:

- it's an indirect ruling based on the answer re: Dreaded 13th and that unit
- it leads to silly other caveats, like: Can the unit garrison a building? They are neither Monstrous Infantry or Infantry. Or: A skink chief doesn't get a look out sir when fighting in the unit.

These are things I don't ever really argue about in an active game, but I like to be aware of how others might play them so I can clear up things in advance so I'm not surprised part way through a game.

There's a direct ruling in the Liz FAQ that says you can't stomp em. Pretty straightforward.

LOS gets a lot trickier because of the wording. Friendly unit with 5 or more MODELS of the character's troop type within 3". They don't say the actual unit has to be the character's troop type. They say it has to be composed of models of the char's troop type... Which would allow Unique units with models of Infantry to protect an Infantry. Presumably if you had 5 krox you could also protect a MI champ--even passing the hit onto a skink.

Don't feel like looking up garrison.

Oh, good call. That's my bad. I think I was going off one edition earlier. For those interested, here's the quote Duke refers to:

Q: Can you Stomp or Thunderstomp a unit of Skinks that
contains Kroxigor? (p94)
A: No, a mixed unit has the troop type of Unique.

GW has not covered what would happen if two characters of a different type are deployed together to make a unit.

The shoddy lizardmen FAQ only makes things more complicated, and their is a whole thread about how poorly those rules are written (like krox only making 1 supporting attack).

How I'd play it, which has nothing to do with YMDC, is that you distribute the hits, and disregard any hits that are allocated to illegal models. So if a goblin on spider joined an orc on foot, who join a savage shaman on boar, you'd randomize hits between the three, and disregard any hits on another but the orc on foot.

-Matt

GW has not covered what would happen if two characters of a different type are deployed together to make a unit.

Yeah, they do. Just not explicitly. But all the rules are there.

1. A character can be deployed alone. This (obviously) defines that unit type. A single model is still a unit.
2. Another character can be deployed WITH a unit he is capable of joining. That unit type was defined ^. And it's why you can't have a Daemon Prince + Herald, because no one can join monster unit types (and monsters can't join anything).
3. The unit is still of the original type. It just has one or more extra characters in it. 30 goblins deploying and forming a unit is the same as 1 goblin shaman deploying and forming a unit, they're both infantry unit types. Characters can be added to them if they are permitted to join infantry, but it doesn't change the unit type in question. If you add an MI character to an infantry unit, that infantry unit can still be stomped (and do anything else infantry-specific).