Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

(sorry if i misspelled his name first off, codex not handy atm) So how do i run this guy? i know he has some amazing special rules and i like him for that, but other than that what do i do with him? should i give him to some lychgurad and have him assault stuff or just have him chill in the back trying to stay out of line of sight so he doesn't get blasted? Still getting a hang of this new dex so tell me if im missing some glaringly obvious purpose for him that i overlooked, cheers.

All comments are read and appreciated
-E

He's pretty good at absorbing ranged fire at a unit he is with, between his 2+/3++. He also makes the unit he joins relentless.

I'd say you don't particularly want him in combat. He's not terrible in combat, but it's not really something he excels at.

I'd say stick him in a unit of Immortals with Gauss Blasters, or a Unit of Warriors.

Imotekh and his army should probably play at a distance. As close the the 24" range as you can to force the enemy to have to deal with night-fight. After that another overlord would be good....mostly so you can unlock a second royal court as you'll want one or two solar pulses to use in your own turn (removes night-fight in your turn and then expires). Basically if forces your opponent to deal with night-fighting while you are immune to it for two turns.

Scarabs will be nice to get up in your enemy's face and hold them back at range.....though surprisingly enough, you probably don't want to assault with them (to clarify, you only assault vehicles) if you do it that way because then you can't shoot the engaged enemy. Though if you can somehow plan it out that the scarabs survive in your assault phase and then are wiped out in the enemy's, that would be wonderful. They're more of a road-blocks to force the enemy to deal with them instead of getting closer to mitigate the effects of night fight.

Soooo, range is your friend with this kind of list.

You run Imotekh in a necron army that doesn't need to abuse solar pulse shenanigans to get their own shooting in. I see too many people running him along with with solar pulse crypteks and doomsday arks... this is Doing It Wrong.

I'd run him in an army with a Ghost Ark core, but with a heavy focus on my short-range threats: Doom Scythes, Night Scythes with Lychguard cargo, Scarabs, Spyders, C'Tan, etc.

Ostrakon wrote:You run Imotekh in a necron army that doesn't need to abuse solar pulse shenanigans to get their own shooting in. I see too many people running him along with with solar pulse crypteks and doomsday arks... this is Doing It Wrong.

Could you elaborate on that?

I'd run him in an army with a Ghost Ark core, but with a heavy focus on my short-range threats: Doom Scythes, Night Scythes with Lychguard cargo, Scarabs, Spyders, C'Tan, etc.

Then why take him at all if you're using short ranged units as night-fight becomes pointless save for the lightning strikes?

Nungunz wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:You run Imotekh in a necron army that doesn't need to abuse solar pulse shenanigans to get their own shooting in. I see too many people running him along with with solar pulse crypteks and doomsday arks... this is Doing It Wrong.

Could you elaborate on that?

I'd run him in an army with a Ghost Ark core, but with a heavy focus on my short-range threats: Doom Scythes, Night Scythes with Lychguard cargo, Scarabs, Spyders, C'Tan, etc.

Then why take him at all if you're using short ranged units as night-fight becomes pointless save for the lightning strikes?

If you just want NF for a couple turns, you don't need to spend a land raider's worth of points on an HQ that provides little but exactly that. Using the solar pulse cancels out lightning since it happens on your turn, which means you spent a lot of points for an ability that you could have easily duplicated by popping a pulse on -their- turn. Taking solar pulses and Imotek in the same list is like paying to poison yourself just so you can try the antidote in 90% of the applications I see posted on this site.

You want short ranged units because they lose literally nothing due to nightfight, while your opponents' MLs and Lascannons and Demolishers and whatnot sit gathering dust for the first turn or two, or even better - moving closer to your assaulty guys. Plus it buys you a turn waiting for your Doom Scythes to come in.

Ostrakon wrote:

Nungunz wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:You run Imotekh in a necron army that doesn't need to abuse solar pulse shenanigans to get their own shooting in. I see too many people running him along with with solar pulse crypteks and doomsday arks... this is Doing It Wrong.

Could you elaborate on that?

I'd run him in an army with a Ghost Ark core, but with a heavy focus on my short-range threats: Doom Scythes, Night Scythes with Lychguard cargo, Scarabs, Spyders, C'Tan, etc.

Then why take him at all if you're using short ranged units as night-fight becomes pointless save for the lightning strikes?

If you just want NF for a couple turns, you don't need to spend a land raider's worth of points on an HQ that provides little but exactly that. Using the solar pulse cancels out lightning since it happens on your turn, which means you spent a lot of points for an ability that you could have easily duplicated by popping a pulse on -their- turn. Taking solar pulses and Imotek in the same list is like paying to poison yourself just so you can try the antidote in 90% of the applications I see posted on this site.

You want short ranged units because they lose literally nothing due to nightfight, while your opponents' MLs and Lascannons and Demolishers and whatnot sit gathering dust for the first turn or two, or even better - moving closer to your assaulty guys. Plus it buys you a turn waiting for your Doom Scythes to come in.

The list we're trying out now takes the storm lord and 2 Pulses, not really to make it so you can see to shoot. Just to further nerf your opponents shooting. 2 turns night fight is easy, 3 turns it gets harder, but with 2 pulses it's 3 turns near guaranteed and prolly longer.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

Nungunz wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:You run Imotekh in a necron army that doesn't need to abuse solar pulse shenanigans to get their own shooting in. I see too many people running him along with with solar pulse crypteks and doomsday arks... this is Doing It Wrong.

Could you elaborate on that?

I'd run him in an army with a Ghost Ark core, but with a heavy focus on my short-range threats: Doom Scythes, Night Scythes with Lychguard cargo, Scarabs, Spyders, C'Tan, etc.

Then why take him at all if you're using short ranged units as night-fight becomes pointless save for the lightning strikes?

If you just want NF for a couple turns, you don't need to spend a land raider's worth of points on an HQ that provides little but exactly that. Using the solar pulse cancels out lightning since it happens on your turn, which means you spent a lot of points for an ability that you could have easily duplicated by popping a pulse on -their- turn. Taking solar pulses and Imotek in the same list is like paying to poison yourself just so you can try the antidote in 90% of the applications I see posted on this site.

You want short ranged units because they lose literally nothing due to nightfight, while your opponents' MLs and Lascannons and Demolishers and whatnot sit gathering dust for the first turn or two, or even better - moving closer to your assaulty guys. Plus it buys you a turn waiting for your Doom Scythes to come in.

The list we're trying out now takes the storm lord and 2 Pulses, not really to make it so you can see to shoot. Just to further nerf your opponents shooting. 2 turns night fight is easy, 3 turns it gets harder, but with 2 pulses it's 3 turns near guaranteed and prolly longer.

But what purpose does that even serve? Your opponent will certainly have moved his crap into NF range by turn 2, especially if he realizes he's looking at 4 turns of it?

Against Armies that rely on heavy shooting, that is typically done at range. Long Fangs, Dakka Dreads, IG to an extent. Playing SW and IG my least favorite thing is Night Fighting, not only does it have an effect on the table, it also has a psychological effect on the opponent.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Against Armies that rely on heavy shooting, that is typically done at range. Long Fangs, Dakka Dreads, IG to an extent. Playing SW and IG my least favorite thing is Night Fighting, not only does it have an effect on the table, it also has a psychological effect on the opponent.

But the effect is very one dimensional. If the opponent is out of range, they will move into range. They will continue to do so until they are in range. 2 turns of this will either be enough for either them to finally get their shooting in, or you to have tied up whatever unit you didn't want shooting you. I'm having a very difficult time coming up with a unit that wouldn't fall into one of those two categories.

Ostrakon wrote:

If you just want NF for a couple turns, you don't need to spend a land raider's worth of points on an HQ that provides little but exactly that. Using the solar pulse cancels out lightning since it happens on your turn, which means you spent a lot of points for an ability that you could have easily duplicated by popping a pulse on -their- turn. Taking solar pulses and Imotek in the same list is like paying to poison yourself just so you can try the antidote in 90% of the applications I see posted on this site.

Very good point actually. I'm seeing less and less of a reason to take the Stormlord at all.

You want short ranged units because they lose literally nothing due to nightfight, while your opponents' MLs and Lascannons and Demolishers and whatnot sit gathering dust for the first turn or two, or even better...

For the first turn maybe. After you or they get close enough that NF no longer is a huge issue. When entire army is planning on sitting at the 15" or closer range a roll of a 5 on two dice is really easy to get for night-fight spotting (83.33% chance of spotting you at 12"-15"......91.67% if you are at 9"-12" or closer). Night fighting only really gets decent when you're at the 21" range where they have a 50% chance of spotting you. That and against most imperium based armies what happens when the close range troops get lit-up by search-lights?

- moving closer to your assaulty guys. Plus it buys you a turn waiting for your Doom Scythes to come in.

Aside from some HQs, what assaulty troops are you taking about? The fail WS4 I2 40 point assaulty troops? Toughness 5 won't keep them alive that long and if they opt for S7 then they have no invuln save. Any assault-based unit is going to eat them for breakfast.

No if using warriors/immortals to hide some decent CC HQ like Nemesor....sure...that can work, but you're very limited. Royal court lords can work, but they they only have two attacks base and risk sweeping-advance as warriors (immortals are still decent) aren't as.

Doomsycthes could work, but are suicide unit. AV11 hurts them so badly considering how expensive they are. Though night-fighting does help them out as on the average 10-11 roll they are sitting at the 20 to 21 inches, but that only guarantees hits on what you want 50% of the time so realistically would probably be operating in the 15-18 inch range bracket to get a better chance of a hit.

In order for this to work you really need to swarm the enemy ASAP with fast, fragile craft backed up by fast units such as scarabs (cheap as hell, but easy to kill), destroyers (, and tomb blades.

Just thinking off the top of my head. Imotekh+2 x5 Lychguard with Night Sycthes + x2 Doom Scythes + x3 Spyders clocks in at 1325 (1375 if taking Dispersion Shields on the lychguard). Rest of the points get spent on troops, scarabs, and other supporting units. Call me crazy, but 10 lychguard and two doom scythes aren't all that scary to me.



I guess it's possible to work...but just seems gimicky and unreliable. So why take Imotekh at all when a Command Barge Overlord and a cryptek with solar pulse comes out to 10 points more than Imotekh and probably support the army much better?


Interesting discussion. I'm enjoying this and learning a lot more about the codex.

I have to agree with Ostrakon on this one. If you want Imotek in the list, drop the Solar Pulses and stick to short range mobility with high firepower. If you want Solar Pulses, take 2, forgo Imotek, and load up on ranged firepower to force your opponent to come to you while you bombard them from afar. Ghost Arks full of Eldritch lances work well for this.

I'm thinking the best combo for Imotek is probably the Scarab + Spyder swarm and a bunch Warriors with Ghost Arks to replenish them.

Example:

Imotek - 225
-HoTransmog (Crucible) - 40
Overlord (Warscythe, Res Orb, Mindshackle Scarabs) - 145
-HoTransmog (Crucible) - 40
15 Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 310
9 Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 232
9 Warriors (Ghost Ark) - 232
5 Immortals - 85
5 Immortals - 85
10 Scarabs - 150
3 Spyders - 150
3 Spyders - 150
3 Spyders - 150
Total 1,996

Imotek and the Overlord are on foot with the 15 man unit, and both Crypteks are attached. This lets them reduce assaulting units charge ranged by 2d3" and put them in difficult terrain. Also, enemy units that do manage to get into assault can look forward to 2x Mindshackle Scarabs messing with their attacks. The unit is Relentless and with the Ghost Arks it should stay full size most of the game unless you badly misstep.

The Immortals hold your objectives, and the Scarabs eat tanks while Immotek protects you with Night Fight while you close with the enemy. Spyders make more Scarabs and follow up behind the Ghost Arks for cover, and your Warriors move on objecties.

Basically, your opponent is forced to come to you the whole time and cannot use long ranged firepower without Indirect Fire. Watch out for Colossus Mortars as they will ruin your day (S6 AP3 ignoring cover is an easy way to scrap MANY MANY Scarab bases) and once you get close, Leman Russ Executioners can do horrible things to you. Imperial Guard is probably the worst matchup for this list design.

So why take Imotekh at all when a Command Barge Overlord and a cryptek with solar pulse comes out to 10 points more than Imotekh and probably support the army much better?

This is precisely the question I've been asking. Imotekh has his uses, but they seem lost on the vast majority of people including him. Shutting down long range fire for a few turns can be absolutely devastating, and the lightning can dish out some non-trival damage, especially to transports.

As for our CC units - yes, if you compare them model-for-model with dedicated CC units, they're not likely to come up on top. But I don't think that's the point of them. I think they're there to:
-Kill MEQs (a tac/AM/dev squad will absolutely fold under sword and board lychguard)
-Cleaning up dedicated transport contents after they get popped in the shooting phase
-Finish off guys tarpitted by scarabs, or using them to launch multi-assaults in tandem
-Draw a veritable buttload of fire to cover for our other units.
-Bait-and-switch tactics with NF and VoD.

What people seem to think they're going to be used for:
-Slogging the entire game with no cover
-Assaulting 30-strong boyz and gaunt units


Now, as guys who I'd want to actually bring to assaults are concerns, Wraiths are the clear superiors IMO, for several reasons.

Aldarionn wrote:I have to agree with Ostrakon on this one. If you want Imotek in the list, drop the Solar Pulses and stick to short range mobility with high firepower. If you want Solar Pulses, take 2, forgo Imotek, and load up on ranged firepower to force your opponent to come to you while you bombard them from afar. Ghost Arks full of Eldritch lances work well for this.

I want to do this just for the sillyness of having an AV13 bunks with 5 AP2 missile launchers. I would prefer to split them up to shoot at more targets....but it still amuses me. Palladins will hate, hate, HATE, this combo.

Ostrakon wrote:
This is precisely the question I've been asking. Imotekh has his uses, but they seem lost on the vast majority of people including him. Shutting down long range fire for a few turns can be absolutely devastating, and the lightning can dish out some non-trival damage, especially to transports.

True, but I just keep on thinking ehhhhhh 1 in 6 chance really doesn't do it for me, but if it goes of it's very nice indeed.

As for our CC units - yes, if you compare them model-for-model with dedicated CC units, they're not likely to come up on top. But I don't think that's the point of them. I think they're there to:
-Kill MEQs (a tac/AM/dev squad will absolutely fold under sword and board lychguard)

-Cleaning up dedicated transport contents after they get popped in the shooting phase
-Finish off guys tarpitted by scarabs, or using them to launch multi-assaults in tandem
-Draw a veritable buttload of fire to cover for our other units.
-Bait-and-switch tactics with NF and VoD.

The problem I see is the I2 and WS4....that and you have to get them there. And honestly hijacking a ghost ark is probably a bit better than taking a night scythe (mostly that you can assault out of a ghost ark moving 12" and if the ghost ark bites it, the lychguard don't have to sit around in reserves). But yeah, they are able to do that. But at the same cost of a terminator? I don't know, not a fan myself.

What people seem to think they're going to be used for:
-Slogging the entire game with no cover
-Assaulting 30-strong boyz and gaunt units

I lol when I see people that think this will work.

Now, as guys who I'd want to actually bring to assaults are concerns, Wraiths are the clear superiors IMO, for several reasons.

Oh hell yes. Definitely. I2 sucks, but they have a 3++ and the option for whip-coils to negate the higher initiative (most likely going to be ICs as they have to react first....heheheh).

4-6 wraiths, give a few of them whip coils and maybe attach a Res-Orb D-Lord to them. Gets expensive, but it hits hard. ID is an issue, but a 3++ and 4+ RP make that more tolerable.

The problem with the Lichguard/Praetorians is not their ability to kill off MEQ's. It's the fact that they cost 40 points per model and absolutely NOTHING justifies that price for a unit that has Initiative 2 and will die to any comparably priced unit, or any assault unit in the game.

An Assault unit needs one of two things. It either needs high Initiative, or solid durability. Lichguard have neither. They are 1-wound models that cost the same as Terminators but have a worse save, no Invulnerable save and Initiative that would let a Tactical Squad roll them without much trouble. If you give them Swords and Shields, their damage output goes DOWN while their price goes UP and they gain a 4++ save and the ability to redirect fire to a unit within 6", which means if they are using this they are in Shooting and Assault Range of a unit in your opponents turn that at best will tie them up, and at worst will steamroll them.

A charging Tactical Squad will fire a Meltagun and 9 Pistols, then make 18 attacks and potentially 4 Power Weapon or 3 Power Fist attacks (most take one or the other). The first will kill half the squad before it gets to attack and take between 1 and 2 deaths in return, winning by 1-2 or at worst drawing combat, and the second will kill 2 models, take 2 deaths in return, then kill another model, winning the combat by 1. Either way, if the Lichguard fail morale they are easily swept. An Assault Squad or a unit of Grey Hunters will deliver a far worse outcome, and of the three of those units, only the Assault Squad is more expensive than the Lichguard, and the last two will steamroll you even if you charge. God help you if they have a Sanguinary priest or a Rune Priest with Jaws.

Lichguard and Praetorians are both overpriced units that have a massive fatal flaw that's going to be impossible to overcome until 6th edition. As this codex was released for that edition, I hold out hope that the Assault rules will be updated to get rid of the horrible penalties for having such low initiative.

Lichguard and Praetorians are both overpriced units that have a massive fatal flaw that's going to be impossible to overcome until 6th edition. As this codex was released for that edition, I hold out hope that the Assault rules will be updated to get rid of the horrible penalties for having such low initiative.

You can't let them get assaulted. They have to be assaulting something. They also need to pick fights with only enemies that they will beat. They are a decent counter attack unit. Well, Lychguard with shields are. Praetorians are just bad.

The issue is if you EVER use the shields reflection ability, you are in Assault range of an enemy unless they are across difficult terrain. Even then you could STILL be in Assault range. You pay points for this ability which is attached to their 4++ save (granted it's only 5 points, but without it they ae worse than useless) and you are never going to use it because they are always going to be in your backfield waiting to counter-assault something, which should never happen because if you are getting assaulted by anything that requires them to counter-assault you have lost the game. Period.

With their shields they are 45 points per model and intended to be used in Assault. Look at Terminators, which cost less across the board and will absolutely slaughter Lichguard. Look at Assault Squads, which cost less and will absolutely slaughter Lichguard. Most basic infantry will slaughter Lichguard, and there is no part of a Space Wolf army that you can safely assault except perhaps the Long Fangs (which you will never get near). Assaulting Grey Hunters with your Lichguard is absolute suicide unless you have Zahndrekh, and even then it's not great.

You are telling me they are decent against basic infantry, but point-for-point that's simply false. 225 points worth of Imperial Guard will bludgeon them to death in combat before they get to attack assuming they don't just torrent them down with 36 Lasgun shots and 8 Autocannon shots, and similar points worth of Space Marines/Chaos will do the same thing. Only Tau are even close to a fair fight, and they will rip you open before you get close.

If you could attach Crypteks to them then maybe. If they cost 10-15 points less per model and came with the Shields then maybe. If they had a 2+ save base then maybe. If they had Furious Charge then Maybe. If they had Initiative 3 base then maybe. If they were Fearless then maybe. But with their current stats, they are worse than useless, which is a damn shame because those models are gorgeous!

Aldarionn wrote:The issue is if you EVER use the shields reflection ability, you are in Assault range of an enemy unless they are across difficult terrain. Even then you could STILL be in Assault range. You pay points for this ability which is attached to their 4++ save (granted it's only 5 points, but without it they ae worse than useless) and you are never going to use it because they are always going to be in your backfield waiting to counter-assault something, which should never happen because if you are getting assaulted by anything that requires them to counter-assault you have lost the game. Period.

With their shields they are 45 points per model and intended to be used in Assault. Look at Terminators, which cost less across the board and will absolutely slaughter Lichguard. Look at Assault Squads, which cost less and will absolutely slaughter Lichguard. Most basic infantry will slaughter Lichguard, and there is no part of a Space Wolf army that you can safely assault except perhaps the Long Fangs (which you will never get near). Assaulting Grey Hunters with your Lichguard is absolute suicide unless you have Zahndrekh, and even then it's not great.

You are telling me they are decent against basic infantry, but point-for-point that's simply false. 225 points worth of Imperial Guard will bludgeon them to death in combat before they get to attack assuming they don't just torrent them down with 36 Lasgun shots and 8 Autocannon shots, and similar points worth of Space Marines/Chaos will do the same thing. Only Tau are even close to a fair fight, and they will rip you open before you get close.

If you could attach Crypteks to them then maybe. If they cost 10-15 points less per model and came with the Shields then maybe. If they had a 2+ save base then maybe. If they had Furious Charge then Maybe. If they had Initiative 3 base then maybe. If they were Fearless then maybe. But with their current stats, they are worse than useless, which is a damn shame because those models are gorgeous!

What do you mean Terminators absolutely slaughter Lychguard? This has been proven to not be the case, at all. They are Equal to TH/SS, since the 4++/5+RP is the same as the 3++. They totally outclass them with an Orb. Not to mention, in the BA book, TH/SS cost 45 points each as well. Against regular terminators, Lychguard destroy them. Assault Squads don't slaughter them either, Are you just making this crap up? seriously. Assault Grey Hunters with Lycheguard isn't suicide either. I'm really curious where you are pulling these numbers from, because they are totally false.

Your post looks like you haven't used them, or done any research into the matter.

If you Run Imote you need to have him in a transport IMO.

If he's not, Space Wolf wolf guard in a drop pod, joined by a Rune priest with Jotww. 3+ and Imo is removed from play.. Not wounded so no save,no Rez orb, No RP... he is simply removed from play, not a single wound delivered.

Put him in a transport. At least with night fighting he can shut down range. And if the Wolf Guard have combi metlas they still have to shoot him out of a barge/Ark. Jotww in the same unit would go at the same time as the Combi Meltas so wouldnt affect the vehichle. (So no first turn kill, and time to counter the actions on your turn)

You would also make sure if you do foot him across the board, you take a Spyder with the 4+null to psychic powers within 6"


Now do other list have something similar to do the same 'space wolf' tactic mentioned above.. top of my head im not sure, but if you look hard enough, im sure you will find a good reason to protect Imote with an Army Value.

Sasori wrote:
What do you mean Terminators absolutely slaughter Lychguard? This has been proven to not be the case, at all. They are Equal to TH/SS, since the 4++/5+RP is the same as the 3++. They totally outclass them with an Orb. Not to mention, in the BA book, TH/SS cost 45 points each as well. Against regular terminators, Lychguard destroy them. Assault Squads don't slaughter them either, Are you just making this crap up? seriously. Assault Grey Hunters with Lycheguard isn't suicide either. I'm really curious where you are pulling these numbers from, because they are totally false.

Your post looks like you haven't used them, or done any research into the matter.

Running the math you are correct, it's not quite as narrowly fought as I mentioned, but in context with an actual battle, the Lychguard against TH/SS Terminators comes down to who charges, and the Assault Squad will shred them if it's Blood Angels. Nearby Sanguinary Priests to give Furious Charge and a Librarian in the squad to give Unleashed Rage will mean even with a Res Orb they die before they get to attack. A single Dreadnought holds them in place all game until they die of boredom and it costs half as much as the Lychguard. Also, if a player assaults the Lychguard AND a nearby Warrior squad (IE, you keep them in the back to counter-assault but your opponent positions an Assault Squad well and charges both units) then the Lychguard lose combat badly and are likely run down before Reanimation protocols. Don't even get me started on Grey Knights.

My statements are based off of in-game scenarios, not necessarily the straight math of a unit in combat with another unit. There is more going on there than simply comparing two units, and most other armies with melee units can support them quite well, but Necrons cannot. It's a single melee unit in a codex full of models that are terrified of melee, perhaps with the exception of Scarabs only because they throw so many attacks.

Aldarionn wrote:

Sasori wrote:
What do you mean Terminators absolutely slaughter Lychguard? This has been proven to not be the case, at all. They are Equal to TH/SS, since the 4++/5+RP is the same as the 3++. They totally outclass them with an Orb. Not to mention, in the BA book, TH/SS cost 45 points each as well. Against regular terminators, Lychguard destroy them. Assault Squads don't slaughter them either, Are you just making this crap up? seriously. Assault Grey Hunters with Lycheguard isn't suicide either. I'm really curious where you are pulling these numbers from, because they are totally false.

Your post looks like you haven't used them, or done any research into the matter.

Running the math you are correct, it's not quite as narrowly fought as I mentioned, but in context with an actual battle, the Lychguard against TH/SS Terminators comes down to who charges, and the Assault Squad will shred them if it's Blood Angels. Nearby Sanguinary Priests to give Furious Charge and a Librarian in the squad to give Unleashed Rage will mean even with a Res Orb they die before they get to attack. A single Dreadnought holds them in place all game until they die of boredom and it costs half as much as the Lychguard. Also, if a player assaults the Lychguard AND a nearby Warrior squad (IE, you keep them in the back to counter-assault but your opponent positions an Assault Squad well and charges both units) then the Lychguard lose combat badly and are likely run down before Reanimation protocols. Don't even get me started on Grey Knights.

My statements are based off of in-game scenarios, not necessarily the straight math of a unit in combat with another unit. There is more going on there than simply comparing two units, and most other armies with melee units can support them quite well, but Necrons cannot. It's a single melee unit in a codex full of models that are terrified of melee, perhaps with the exception of Scarabs only because they throw so many attacks.

Your scenario of a "Battle" is completely one sided. I can throw up scenarios just like you are doing, that completely wipe out the Blood Angels as well. It's pointless, a battle never works out hat way.

I would hardly say they are based on in game scenarios, just what you decided to come up with off the top of your head.

I think Imotekh (sp?) is better for getting into ideal firing lanes and choke points. The extended Night Fighting allows Warriors/Immortals, Destroyers, Annihilation Barges, and those Stalkers get into optimal weapon range, using the night cover, and then just dropping it and letting them open up on encroaching enemies. Sitting Imotekh in a group of 20 relentless Warriors can shred just about anything within 12".

While not relevant to the whole Imotekh thing I had trazyn sitting in lychguard holding an objective like nobodies business.

Sasori wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:

Sasori wrote:
What do you mean Terminators absolutely slaughter Lychguard? This has been proven to not be the case, at all. They are Equal to TH/SS, since the 4++/5+RP is the same as the 3++. They totally outclass them with an Orb. Not to mention, in the BA book, TH/SS cost 45 points each as well. Against regular terminators, Lychguard destroy them. Assault Squads don't slaughter them either, Are you just making this crap up? seriously. Assault Grey Hunters with Lycheguard isn't suicide either. I'm really curious where you are pulling these numbers from, because they are totally false.

Your post looks like you haven't used them, or done any research into the matter.

Running the math you are correct, it's not quite as narrowly fought as I mentioned, but in context with an actual battle, the Lychguard against TH/SS Terminators comes down to who charges, and the Assault Squad will shred them if it's Blood Angels. Nearby Sanguinary Priests to give Furious Charge and a Librarian in the squad to give Unleashed Rage will mean even with a Res Orb they die before they get to attack. A single Dreadnought holds them in place all game until they die of boredom and it costs half as much as the Lychguard. Also, if a player assaults the Lychguard AND a nearby Warrior squad (IE, you keep them in the back to counter-assault but your opponent positions an Assault Squad well and charges both units) then the Lychguard lose combat badly and are likely run down before Reanimation protocols. Don't even get me started on Grey Knights.

My statements are based off of in-game scenarios, not necessarily the straight math of a unit in combat with another unit. There is more going on there than simply comparing two units, and most other armies with melee units can support them quite well, but Necrons cannot. It's a single melee unit in a codex full of models that are terrified of melee, perhaps with the exception of Scarabs only because they throw so many attacks.

Your scenario of a "Battle" is completely one sided. I can throw up scenarios just like you are doing, that completely wipe out the Blood Angels as well. It's pointless, a battle never works out hat way.

I would hardly say they are based on in game scenarios, just what you decided to come up with off the top of your head.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:I think Imotekh (sp?) is better for getting into ideal firing lanes and choke points. The extended Night Fighting allows Warriors/Immortals, Destroyers, Annihilation Barges, and those Stalkers get into optimal weapon range, using the night cover, and then just dropping it and letting them open up on encroaching enemies. Sitting Imotekh in a group of 20 relentless Warriors can shred just about anything within 12".

Good points.

Personally I feel Imotekh is best used by taking advantage of all of his abilities.

Your probably going to have the first to turns of Night Fighting. Use that. Hit one flank hard and affectively minmize half your opponents army.

He has Phaeron, use it. 10 GB Immortals or 20 Warriors.

He can DS a group of FOs and they don't scatter. Use it. I think I've decided on 15 for my army, but a a big group of Flayed ones showing up within inches of an armies foot based fire base (Long Fangs, Devs, ETC) is an absolute awesome advantage for you. One thing this will likely force your opponent to do is spread out his Dev (or similar) squads, which will play into the NF force one flank tactic above. Even if its just a token group of 5, if your not married to 3 other units for Elite squads, I think you should seriously consider working in these 65 points of FO's just for a psychological impact. You will force your opponent to deal with them which should open you and your army up for other areas of attack.

He has some decent CC prowess, so while I wouldn't go looking for a fight with him, it should allow him to keep his Unit going in CC and not get swept.

I've completed my Imotekh 2K and plan on posting in the Army list section soon. I still have some tweaks to make but I think it optimises most of Imo's special abilities well.

I am with Aldarrion. Both lychguard and praetorians look interesting at first glance and the models are nice, but in reality they are just too expensive and with worse saves than terminators.

Regarding RP plus those saves being equivalent to TH/SS termies, you can only RP if you survive the phase. The low initiative makes being swept unpleasantly likely. If you get swept, you don't get to RP.

For me, the strongest argument against them is the cost. In an army that must stay out of cc and shoot its way to victory, a dedicated expensive cc unit must be crazy good to be competitive. For the 200 points of 5 models, I can get 2 scythes and drop 8 tesla hits at S7 from 24 inches away. If you want to give them a lord with a res orb and some other toys, that is another ~ 100 pts, which would buy me a third scythe as a dedicated transport. It just does not work and I have yet to see evidence to the contrary.

I've had a non-trivial level of success using Obyron to DS a 10-strong lychguard unit (with a scythe/orb court lord) into my opponent's backplane on turn 2.

One of two things happen: my opponents spend a lot of shooting at the lychguard unit that would probably be better spent on my infantry coming into range, which may or may not be successful; or they're ignored and get to snack on all the LF/Devs and whatnot they want.

Necrontyr40k wrote:I am with Aldarrion. Both lychguard and praetorians look interesting at first glance and the models are nice, but in reality they are just too expensive and with worse saves than terminators.

Regarding RP plus those saves being equivalent to TH/SS termies, you can only RP if you survive the phase. The low initiative makes being swept unpleasantly likely. If you get swept, you don't get to RP.

For me, the strongest argument against them is the cost. In an army that must stay out of cc and shoot its way to victory, a dedicated expensive cc unit must be crazy good to be competitive. For the 200 points of 5 models, I can get 2 scythes and drop 8 tesla hits at S7 from 24 inches away. If you want to give them a lord with a res orb and some other toys, that is another ~ 100 pts, which would buy me a third scythe as a dedicated transport. It just does not work and I have yet to see evidence to the contrary.

They have +1 Toughness. Why do people keep ignoring this? They Also have +1 Strength. Please tell me all of these units they can do 5 wounds against 5T 3+ in one round of combat? Most good general optimise their assault Units to intentionally take two rounds of combat to kill there opponent, however ya'll keep theory-crafting these imaginary units that will wipe 5t 3+ before RP kicks in. These units barely exist in any codex, and simply don't exist in most Meta's. Don't prepare for contingencies they never happen, and using them to argue against the potential effectiveness of a unit is just silly.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:I am with Aldarrion. Both lychguard and praetorians look interesting at first glance and the models are nice, but in reality they are just too expensive and with worse saves than terminators.

Regarding RP plus those saves being equivalent to TH/SS termies, you can only RP if you survive the phase. The low initiative makes being swept unpleasantly likely. If you get swept, you don't get to RP.

For me, the strongest argument against them is the cost. In an army that must stay out of cc and shoot its way to victory, a dedicated expensive cc unit must be crazy good to be competitive. For the 200 points of 5 models, I can get 2 scythes and drop 8 tesla hits at S7 from 24 inches away. If you want to give them a lord with a res orb and some other toys, that is another ~ 100 pts, which would buy me a third scythe as a dedicated transport. It just does not work and I have yet to see evidence to the contrary.

They have +1 Toughness. Why do people keep ignoring this? They Also have +1 Strength. Please tell me all of these units they can do 5 wounds against 5T 3+ in one round of combat? Most good general optimise their assault Units to intentionally take two rounds of combat to kill there opponent, however ya'll keep theory-crafting these imaginary units that will wipe 5t 3+ before RP kicks in. These units barely exist in any codex, and simply don't exist in most Meta's. Don't prepare for contingencies they never happen, and using them to argue against the potential effectiveness of a unit is just silly.

Well, LC termies will do a pretty good job of that, though. I don't see them very often, but 5-strong LC termies with an attached HQ will likely wipe WS lychguard altogether, and put some serious hurt on Swordenboarden Lychguard

Ostrakon wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:I am with Aldarrion. Both lychguard and praetorians look interesting at first glance and the models are nice, but in reality they are just too expensive and with worse saves than terminators.

Regarding RP plus those saves being equivalent to TH/SS termies, you can only RP if you survive the phase. The low initiative makes being swept unpleasantly likely. If you get swept, you don't get to RP.

For me, the strongest argument against them is the cost. In an army that must stay out of cc and shoot its way to victory, a dedicated expensive cc unit must be crazy good to be competitive. For the 200 points of 5 models, I can get 2 scythes and drop 8 tesla hits at S7 from 24 inches away. If you want to give them a lord with a res orb and some other toys, that is another ~ 100 pts, which would buy me a third scythe as a dedicated transport. It just does not work and I have yet to see evidence to the contrary.

They have +1 Toughness. Why do people keep ignoring this? They Also have +1 Strength. Please tell me all of these units they can do 5 wounds against 5T 3+ in one round of combat? Most good general optimise their assault Units to intentionally take two rounds of combat to kill there opponent, however ya'll keep theory-crafting these imaginary units that will wipe 5t 3+ before RP kicks in. These units barely exist in any codex, and simply don't exist in most Meta's. Don't prepare for contingencies they never happen, and using them to argue against the potential effectiveness of a unit is just silly.

Well, LC termies will do a pretty good job of that, though. I don't see them very often, but 5-strong LC termies with an attached HQ will likely wipe WS lychguard altogether, and put some serious hurt on Swordenboarden Lychguard

Fair enough, those of you who regularly face LC Terms with attached HQ's, do not stand your Lychguard/Praets directly in front of them and beg your opponent to charge you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


You know I've been thinking, Vespids just annihilate anyone with a 3+ save and no invulnerable, so based on the overwhelming preponderance of Vespids I' going with all Warriors in GA's for my list....