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Before I begin, I'm not ok with the over poweredness of Draigo in fluff, no doubt they took it a little to far. Though, it seem's he is often used as a full justification for hating any and all WH40K lore (and Matt Ward).

My question though is, is it really to much?

Would people have batted an eye if a Daemon Princes did all that? If a Primarch came back and did all that? I think peoples main concern is that he's a a new character and GW made him the most powerful character fluff wise you can field. But, there has to be a most powerful, and I don't think the stuff he's done is to far ahead of what others have done in the past. Hell, Ragnar fended off Magnus by throwing a spear in his eye (if memory serves)! Ciaphas Cain dueled on equal ground, a Khorne Berserker with just a chainsword!

The problem isn't so much that Draigo does all this 'stuff' as he's supposed to be a very tragic character. No matter how great his deeds or how many of his enemies his kills, every victory is hollow and in the end achives nothing because the Chaos Gods are simply toying with him. He'll get out, save the day, and then be pulled back into an enternal battle he can't win.

It's a good story, the problem is how Ward wrote it... It reads as nothing more than some ADD, hyper-active, suger-hopped 3rd grader's english paper. It's so dripping with fanboy'ish mouth-foaming that become painfull to read after the first paragraph.
Maybe if Ward grew a vocabulary beyond his non-stop use of 'indeed' every other sentance, wouldn't write in absolutes AND left the fanboy'ism out of it, most people wouldn't complain so much about his stuff...

I don't ever expect prize-winning material in a GW army book/codex, but I do expect to read something beyond a 10-year-old who's trying to shovel his latest wetdream crap down my throat.

From what I can tell about the dead horse comments which have been posted up before in threads like this, you're now batting at ashes from the horse which went on fire from the force of previous beatings.

Answer:
Most people would have batted an eye if a daemon prince went around the warp killing the Chaos gods stuff. Bringing the primarchs back would have been a massive change, and Draigo =/= Primarch, whatever people may think. They're the sons of the Emperor, and they couldn't physically walk the Warp, yet Draigo can for some reason.

Yes, Ragnar managed to stop Magnus being summoned. By interrupting his summoning process by throwing a spear made by the Emperor at him. Draigo managed to pin and give open heart surgery to a fully materialised Daemon Primarch, then managed to let him escape.

And beating a Berserker with a chainsword isn't that big of an achievement. Cain's also killed an ork warboss in a fight. And CSMs get killed in fluff a lot. A regular human killing a CSM isn't the same as a Grey Knight strolling through the Warp without any consequences. It's the difference between killing a lion with your bare hands and killing a lion with your bare hands, then turning it into a sword to kill a bunch of other lions and an aeroplane with.

Prepare for locking.

Namica wrote:Before I begin, I'm not ok with the over poweredness of Draigo in fluff, no doubt they took it a little to far. Though, it seem's he is often used as a full justification for hating any and all WH40K lore (and Matt Ward).

My question though is, is it really to much?

Would people have batted an eye if a Daemon Princes did all that? If a Primarch came back and did all that?

A Daemon Prince is a scion of Chaos, an immensely powerful being and a power to be reckoned within the Warp which is its natural home. A Primarch is far and away a more powerful being than any mere Space Marine, and Draigo, powerful though he is, is nought but a Space Marine.

Now, withn Draigo's story we actually have him defeating an amalgamation of these two beings, the Daemonically ascended primarch Mortarion, a being who should by all rights be unimagineably more powerful than Draigo, and yet never have we heard of such a being being able to topple Tzeentch's city with a single blow or the like.

Draigo did stuff that even the Emperor, in effect a Warp power in his own right every bit as powerful as the Chaos Gods, nor the Primarchs or the Custodes who should all be noticeably more powerful than a Space Marine.

*WOULD* people annoyed if DP's or Primarch's did these? Possibly, but it would be less silly.

It didn't help that Ward wrote the story like a tweeny piece of internet fanfiction.

Yes, Draigo is too much. If he were as powerful in game as he is in the fluff, he would be your only model on the table, cost 2000pts, and he'd have perfect tens as stats, be stronger than the Emperor (who never went into the warp, and probably couldn't), but he'd still lose the battle. He's perfect...but then he can't ever win. His fluff is absolutely horrible, and by far the worst thing Ward has written. On the other hand, I bought the Necron codex and pawed through it, and I LIKE what Ward did with that. It's an enjoyable read. Maybe GW realized he made a mistake with Draigo and the group consented to tone it down. Who knows.

And I agree with Durza-this horse has already been turned to glue, snorted by an idiot teenager, then lit on fire. Time to let Draigo die (in fluff too, please)

Hi

can you field Draigo with another chapter master?

thanks

HarryTheDefiler wrote:Hi

can you field Draigo with another chapter master?

thanks

Not entirely sure what you're asking here. You can field Draigo with any other troops choice in the Grey Knights codex, within your Force Organisation allowance. You cannot use him in regular Space Marine armies, or in armies from any other codex, at least not without your opponent's express consent.

Vaktathi covered what I would have said. Draigo is just too much - that one step beyond the line of what seems reasonable in a game about thuggish fungus men and metal robot Egyptians. And Draigo isn't the only example of such behaviour from the man who wrote his entry. He's the most egregious, that's for sure, but there are other ones out there that are quite bad.

Dragio really is too much, Walking the warp and constantly fighting the demons of chaos, I raise my eyebrow, but I can accept that. Beating down the strongest of the demons of the chaos gods while those demons are in their home territory and immortal, now you are starting to annoy me. Carving a name into a demon primachs heart has just completely destroyed it.

Primachs were the sons of the Emperor and each was far more powerful than any of their children space marines. However, a primach who has ascended to the level of demon prince rivals the emperor himself. Horus totally overpowered Sanguinus and mortally wounded the emperor because chaos empowered primachs really are that powerful. While Horus might be an exceptional example, it in no way diminishes the feats of the other demon primachs who killed off almost all of their remaining loyal brothers.

In fluff the Primachs are supposed to be the stuff of legends. The loyalist ones are either all dead or missing, the traitor ones are similarly either dead or so involved in their own chaos worlds that the material world holds no more interest for them. They are not really supposed to be referenced in anyway except as a legend.

Dragio beating one in one on one combat and then carving a name into his heart is just too insane to even consider.Not to mention the very flawed attempt to make him into some kind of tragic character. He is not tragic. He whips demon chaos ass in the warp yet when everything goes back to the way it was its somehow seen as a tragedy. That is how the warp works, nothing inside of it can be broken permanently because its shaped by the will of the entities within and the emotions of the living. Draigo is no more tragic than any other army (not just the grey knights) who fights off a demonic incursion. It will happen again, the demons are immortal and will be back. He even gets to come back to the real space to fight alongside his battle brothers every now and again.

He is too powerful, he is not tragic, he is basically the emperor reincarnated and as a result the worst character ever created.

I'm pretty sure it's just the way its written but I can appreciate the futility in all of Draigo's actions in the story which is why I don't really think he's that over powered.

He's essentially immune to the warp, so the warp is immune to him. It's like going into a game of quake where by if you have god mode, the other side gets instant and never ending respawns as soon as you look away. There is no objective. You can just sit there and try as you may, you can't ever win until you turn off god mode.

as to carving names onto primach's hearts, ya that part was kind of silly. Maybe if you count him doing it after the primarch had already killed a buttload of people including prior grand master and was weakened pretty badly.... but ya, still silly there.

It's really hard for me to consider Draigo "tragic" since he never actually loses anything, never taught a lession about his hubris, or actually in any danger. In real space he kicked daemon ass, in the warp he kicks daemon ass. there is no trasition between the two, onlt now he's in their face 24-7.

If you want tragedy, read the story of Heracles, or Romeo and Juliet, or play the first God of War game if that's more your thing. Draigo, simply put, does not come off as tragic.

Luke_Prowler wrote:It's really hard for me to consider Draigo "tragic" since he never actually loses anything, never taught a lession about his hubris, or actually in any danger. In real space he kicked daemon ass, in the warp he kicks daemon ass. there is no trasition between the two, onlt now he's in their face 24-7.

If you want tragedy, read the story of Heracles, or Romeo and Juliet, or play the first God of War game if that's more your thing. Draigo, simply put, does not come off as tragic.

The tragedy is that he really wanted to be an Ultramarine....

In all fairness the general power creep of newly released armies is stupid and definately nothing new! This was going on over ten years ago! With regards to Draigo and the Grey Knights in general, they are being use as the new standard of power exponential increase rather than creep! I have seen phrases such as "Are Necrons the new Grey Knights?" on forums and in my LFGS I have heard people ask the staff whether the Necrons will be able to deal with Grey Knights etc!

Now Draigo....

I love 40k fluff - period. However in the terms of Draigo's fluff, Ward has gone out of his mind! Even though Space Marines are the elite of humankind and the Grey Knights are the elite of the elite (not to mention the purifiers who are the elite of the elite of the elite and perhaps with sugar on top to boot!!!!!!!) I find it completely and annoyingly insane that Draigo, who not only bested a DAEMON - PRIMARCH not some little chaos follower oh no, but a PRIMARCH-son of the emporer himself turned very bad, in hand to hand combat and carved his old boss's name into his black heart (or at least one of them!), is also running around the warp (the Chaos gods' own backyard) killing everything in sight! So now all daemons including greater deamon are SCARED to combat him. Now if I was Khorne or any of the other choas gods, I would be thinking to myself "hang on a minute, this chap is a little too tasty and handy for my liking, if he gets back to HIS material universe, he is going to be rather unstoppable! I think I might materialise in front of him and kill him as he ranks along side the emporer for hardness (who is combating us in the warp at the moment!)!!!

Please come on!!!!

In HH a normal primarch bitchslaps garro lightly and almost breaks his jaw, how powerful would a deamon primarch of nurgle be now? and how the hell does one SM rip him open and carve a long-ass name into his heart.

Nom

nomsheep wrote:In HH a normal primarch bitchslaps garro lightly and almost breaks his jaw, how powerful would a deamon primarch of nurgle be now? and how the hell does one SM rip him open and carve a long-ass name into his heart.

Nom

QFT

The gut is just too OTT fluffwise. He's the superest of all the superest supermen. And as he's been written badly that makes him a character.

What I meant on the Daemon prince thing, was what if a Daemon prince did those things, but against the Imperium. Like one on oneing, say, Russ.

Draigo almost seems like a blank, really, since he's so warp immune.

Namica wrote:What I meant on the Daemon prince thing, was what if a Daemon prince did those things, but against the Imperium. Like one on oneing, say, Russ.

Draigo almost seems like a blank, really, since he's so warp immune.

Demon princes are expected to be extremely powerful, but even they could not beat the primachs. The Sons of the Emperor always beat back both the demon princes and the greater demons that came their way. They were not easy battles, but they always won, sometimes just barely. The difficulty of these battles implies the strength of the greater demons of chaos. It sets the stage that these super monsters of chaos can be beaten, but there are no living humans who can do it alone, they will always need help at their side.

As for Draigo being a blank, it does not fit, a blank wouldn't even be able to combat chaos in a conventional sense as their warp negating bubble would destabilize demons in their presence before even getting to swinging blows. Draigo is most definitely a kind of normal human, but with so much plot armour its insane. (Seriously a librarian being stuck in the warp 24/7 not succumbing to chaos, you have to be kidding me.)

Namica wrote:What I meant on the Daemon prince thing, was what if a Daemon prince did those things, but against the Imperium. Like one on oneing, say, Russ.

Probably not as derpy given that a Daemon Prince is (or at least should be) more powerful than a Space Marine like Draigo. A Daemon Prince was amongst the mightiest of mortals in life, granted the gift of daemonhood and made vastly more powerful. A Daemon Prince would be a much better matchup against a Primarch than Draigo against a Daemon Primarch and all the Daemons of the Warp.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:

Namica wrote:What I meant on the Daemon prince thing, was what if a Daemon prince did those things, but against the Imperium. Like one on oneing, say, Russ.

Draigo almost seems like a blank, really, since he's so warp immune.

Demon princes are expected to be extremely powerful, but even they could not beat the primachs. The Sons of the Emperor always beat back both the demon princes and the greater demons that came their way. They were not easy battles, but they always won, sometimes just barely. The difficulty of these battles implies the strength of the greater demons of chaos. It sets the stage that these super monsters of chaos can be beaten, but there are no living humans who can do it alone, they will always need help at their side.

As for Draigo being a blank, it does not fit, a blank wouldn't even be able to combat chaos in a conventional sense as their warp negating bubble would destabilize demons in their presence before even getting to swinging blows. Draigo is most definitely a kind of normal human, but with so much plot armour its insane. (Seriously a librarian being stuck in the warp 24/7 not succumbing to chaos, you have to be kidding me.)

Not quite, sanguinius did lose to Ka'banda on Signus

Draigo is the Champion of Malal. He's that strong because he's superpowered by a Chaos God, kinda like Horus when he fought the Emperor.

Draigo is like O'Kais from Fire Warrior. Only 10x stronger.
That should explain everything.

I think I will make this my standard reply to anything related to Mat Ward and fluff:

If (Author == "Matt Ward")
Then{
Fanboy = true;
WritingLeve = "3rd" //as in a 3rd grader writes about as well
OverPowered = true;
ExisitingCanonConform = "false"
}

Armless Failure wrote:If (Author == "Matt Ward")
Then{
Fanboy = true;
WritingLeve = "3rd" //as in a 3rd grader writes about as well
OverPowered = true;
ExisitingCanonConform = "false"
}

ExistingCanonConform still returns true in most languages, because you assigned it a nonzero value, being a string with contents. What you were going should have been false, without the quotes.

And I disagree.

I really think Draigo is not the worst but one of the best fluff recently written.

Much better than Kelly wiht his: ,,And then all Space Wolve Recruits suddendly defelcted to Chaos and Huron, just because".

Devils advocate here, but I think a lot of the problem with the fluff in the codex's is that it seems fast paced/rushed... but you have to keep in mind, you're trying to explain how epic a character is on two pages when in reality, these should be grand novels... like Draigo's entire story could likely fill 3-4 solid books.

I'm not defending Ward, just trying to add some food for thought.

The great and all-powerful matt ward has spoken, eventually draigo will reveal his true alliegence to rowboat girlyman and you all know it.


But it's now canon fluff, so has to be dealt with as with all GW fluff that doesn't fit, ignore the bits that contridict each other or pick the one that best suits what you want in the galaxy.

Nom

daedalus wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:If (Author == "Matt Ward")
Then{
Fanboy = true;
WritingLeve = "3rd" //as in a 3rd grader writes about as well
OverPowered = true;
ExisitingCanonConform = "false"
}

ExistingCanonConform still returns true in most languages, because you assigned it a nonzero value, being a string with contents. What you were going should have been false, without the quotes.

And I disagree.

You area quite right, I did not intend to put quotes on the false. Also ExistingCanonConform has not been a major feature recently.

Oh god, another draigo thread, STop STOP stop!

Don't ask this question, there are already 10000 threads complaining about Draigo, look there.

Remulus wrote:Oh god, another draigo thread, STop STOP stop!

Don't ask this question, there are already 10000 threads complaining about Draigo, look there.

But if we keep spamming the topic it could become a meme!