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Hi,

Recently in a game of 40K I was owned by Jaws of the world wolf. My opponet was able to snipe my characters right out of the unit on turn one. I was thinking that this really makes Crons a hard sell at tournys when Wolves have such a strong presence.
Then I started thinking that maybe its not so bad. Sure, we're int 2. But, we have many jump infantry models, that are immunmed to Jaws and depending on how they FAQ the gloom prism we have atleast one defense against psychic powers.
With all our jump infantry, bikes, and selection of vehicles, do we really have to worry this power that much?

I'd like to see ideas on how to defend against it. Or, any body with experience in dealing with this power.

If you are mech Crons, the answer is obvious. Foot have some issues with it. However, you could:

-put characters in Catacomb Command Barges
-spread out units- take maybe 1-2 JoTWW hits.
-pepper in some Tomb Spyders with gloom prisms
-sell out to stop the Rune Priest and squad first. He can't Jaws while tied up all game against Scarabs.

Remember, you do get RP against Jaws. If you are going all foot, you probably want Spyders anyway. A 4+ is decent enough.

How do you get RP's from Jaws? Isn't it remove from play?
If that's the case, then it's not nearly as horrible as I thought it was.

You do not get RP from Jaws

Ah man which is it now. I don't know the wording both the rules by heart so I can't comment. Does Jaws say you get no saves of any kind? And is RP considered a save? Cause the model is already dead by all accounts, so the RP is more like a regenerate or a respawn, not a save. Time for a rules lawyer debate.

It depends do you count JOW to cause a casualty? If it does than you get RP and Ever-Living.

runmymouth wrote:It depends do you count JOW to cause a casualty? If it does than you get RP and Ever-Living.

My group started playing with it not being a casualty, but we eventually decide it was. Im pretty sure the INAT FAQ says it is also, though im not sure if anyone really follows that.

Removed from the game means removed from the game, obviously if they come back they weren't removed from the game...

RP is no help.

Jaws is removed from play. RP requires removed as casualty. You can't RP/EL from Jaws.

Jaws is overpowered against Necrons, being basically a 3+ to snipe anything you want. Just one of those things you'll have to deal with, as your only defense is to put everything in vehicles, but 'cron vehicles are definitely meant more as support than a battle line themselves.

You don't get RP from Jaws. Gloom Prisms do not affect it at all either; it doesn't target, so they can't nullify it even if it comes through the tiny bubble of protection it makes. On that note, Glooms are pretty much a complete waste of points (and they're not that cheap either, more than a Warrior), not only is the bubble far far too small, it doesn't actually work against the vast majority of powers that are actually dangerous right now. Jaws can snipe your characters and your court attachments, and since it has the same range as the bulk of your shooting, you can't really stop it either, especially as it's not exactly coming from a fragile model.

On the plus side, common interpretation is it can't hit jetbikes or jump infantry (since "jump infantry" is not any ability of infantry, but a seperate unit type all together). Tomb Blades aren't exactly looking worth taking, but 'crons do have a decent assortment of jump infantry.

Still, you can pretty much count on losing any lord, overlord, or cryptek who gets within 24" of a rune priest, and you can't really count on killing him more than 24" away.

Not agreeing with this necessarily as much as just pointing it out. RP you would not get because you only make RP rolls for models that were removed as casualties. Necrons with ever-living however say to place an ever-living counter where the model was "removed from play" then you roll for this as you would for RP. It then states that if the roll is passed the model "must be returned to play" either within coherency of the unit he was with or 3" of the counter. This would imply that the model is actually coming back to play rather than just simply repairing as normal necrons with RP are allowed to do. So it would seem that by a strict reading of the rules that while RP could not be used by models that do not have the ever-living rule, models with the rule may be allowed to return to play.

Corseth wrote:Gloom Prisms do not affect it at all either; it doesn't target, so they can't nullify it even if it comes through the tiny bubble of protection it makes.

False. Check out the YMDC thread about this. The FAQ for Jaws shows that it does have a target.

extenz wrote:Not agreeing with this necessarily as much as just pointing it out. RP you would not get because you only make RP rolls for models that were removed as casualties. Necrons with ever-living however say to place an ever-living counter where the model was "removed from play" then you roll for this as you would for RP. It then states that if the roll is passed the model "must be returned to play" either within coherency of the unit he was with or 3" of the counter. This would imply that the model is actually coming back to play rather than just simply repairing as normal necrons with RP are allowed to do. So it would seem that by a strict reading of the rules that while RP could not be used by models that do not have the ever-living rule, models with the rule may be allowed to return to play.

If you can, post up the exact working on the rule. Cause you may be right about this. Some massive RAW will be needed though.

It's still a shooting attack that has to deal with night fighting.

Not any bigger deal against Necrons than against any other army (sans 'Nids).

DarknessEternal wrote:It's still a shooting attack that has to deal with night fighting.

The entire space wolf army has acute senses, and 24 is only an 8 on 2D6, and thats MAX range for jaws, so night fighting isn't much of a shield for jaws, even with the targeting and night fighting rules.

DarknessEternal wrote:Not any bigger deal against Necrons than against any other army (sans 'Nids).

Practically the entire necron army is I2, so that makes it much worse for them than any army who has higher I, which is almost everything except Orks. So, generally speaking yes, it's actually much worse vs Necrons than other armies.

rigeld2 wrote:

Corseth wrote:Gloom Prisms do not affect it at all either; it doesn't target, so they can't nullify it even if it comes through the tiny bubble of protection it makes.

False. Check out the YMDC thread about this. The FAQ for Jaws shows that it does have a target.

Not entirely correct either. Only the first model hit is a target, the rest are not. As long as that first model isn't benefiting from the Gloom, the Gloom cannot attempt to stop the power even if the spider is itself hit further along the line.

The exact quote from the FAQ is: As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wol f requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through

Reserve vunerable units and tie him up with Scarabs.

well trying to be a rules douche here, RP says place a counter for a model "removed as a casualty" which jaws does "revoved from play" and "revoved as a casualty" are the same thing, but that point is well.. pointless, its the next part that allows the RP/EL

"Instead place a EL counter where the model was REMOVED FROM PLAY" emphasis mine

seems pretty cut and dry for ever living, but RP could be taken either way, i lean on the side of allowing it for RP though (as above)

Playing the Devil since 83!

It is cut and dry - you're right.

You only get to that portion of the rules if the model was removed as a casualty. Removing as a casualty and removing from play are not the same thing. I'm not sure why you think they are. Feel free to bring it up in YMDC though.

Corseth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:False. Check out the YMDC thread about this. The FAQ for Jaws shows that it does have a target.

Not entirely correct either. Only the first model hit is a target, the rest are not. As long as that first model isn't benefiting from the Gloom, the Gloom cannot attempt to stop the power even if the spider is itself hit further along the line.

Right - I was just saying that Gloom *can* nullify Jaws, not that it can under any circumstance. There's some defense anyway.

Necrons are more vulnerable to Jaws, but Nids will usually lose more points when they do fail.

rigeld2 wrote:It is cut and dry - you're right.

You only get to that portion of the rules if the model was removed as a casualty. Removing as a casualty and removing from play are not the same thing. I'm not sure why you think they are. Feel free to bring it up in YMDC though.

Corseth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:False. Check out the YMDC thread about this. The FAQ for Jaws shows that it does have a target.

Not entirely correct either. Only the first model hit is a target, the rest are not. As long as that first model isn't benefiting from the Gloom, the Gloom cannot attempt to stop the power even if the spider is itself hit further along the line.

Right - I was just saying that Gloom *can* nullify Jaws, not that it can under any circumstance. There's some defense anyway.

Necrons are more vulnerable to Jaws, but Nids will usually lose more points when they do fail.

Well of course Nids lose more, we have more models. But think about it, we lose more models to straight bolter fire. Bolters wound a gaunt on a 3+ and ignore his armor. While, jaws can be avoided on a 1-4, meaning that Nids are actually better off. A monstrous creature can only fail on a 6, which is little worse than force weapons plus we got shadow in the warp. As a Nid player I never once worried about this power, nor cared about. Now as a Cron player I'm crying alligator tears...

You've never lost 700 points to one Jaws? I don't care about losing gaunts to Jaws - that's a waste of the power. I just hate when I lose 2 Carnifexes, a Tyrant, and 3 warriors to it...

You always think there's no line, when it turns out there is.

Ok, losing Carnifex and tervigons does hurt. A lot. No argument. But, it just hasn't happend. Like I said, for me atleast, I lose so many bugs in foot slogging games that I dont notice.

Plus i usually run all deepstirke or all flying lists. and Jump infantry can't be hurt by Jaws. So it hasn't come up.


(Does tyrant with wings still get hit by jaws? hes not jump infantry but moves like it? This would seem to be an easy question but I now some beardy people out there are going to argue in favor of the BS power that Jaws is...like space wolves need the buff lol )

Could have swore that Ever-Living stated that you get the roll even after removed from play not rp though.

2 command barges and 2 ghost arks.
Ghost arks with 8 warriors + 2 lords with scythe and mind control. Command barges with warscythe and mind control.

Sweep his squad with command barges (and disembark after sweep is he's close enough).
Flack the rest of his squad down to size, then assault. You can count on the 2-4 mind scarabs to ruin his day.

I saw 2 overlords kill his squad: 6 S7 sweep attacks, 4 S5 AP3 shots from the CCB's, a bit of flak fire, then the lords charged the lone Rune priest.
Rune Priest had to take 2 Ld tests on 3D6, failed one. Debated if he could be forced to hit himself, but the question was moot, the 8 S7 power weapon attacks killed him. Still, I like the idea of the librarians stabbing themselves in the face with their force sword (can't make him use the power though).

-Matt