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according to the fluff emprorers children warbands are rare now days does this mean that not many emporers children are left in the eye of terror or the widcer galaxy?

Just curious, where did you read this? Thanks.

Which fluff? I mean a more specific reference.

I'd imagine it means that a warband led by the Emperor's Children is rare because they're too insane to be good leaders, like the World Eaters. They certainly leave the Eye a lot for torture slaves and such.

After Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children are probably the sparsest Traitor Legion yes. This was stated in Index Astartes I believe. They're too self-centered and even their Primarch bolted his Legion to pursue his own pleasures. It's what happens when you become true children of Slaanesh. That being said they've been involved in some of the most notorious actions in the Eye of Terror, such as trying to clone Horus and defeating the World Eaters at Skalanthrax and there are other Slaaneshi CSM such as the Violators and Flawless Host.

Really by this point size-wise it probably goes:
1.) Black Legion
2.) Iron Warriors or Word Bearers
3.) Night Lords
4.) World Eaters (not khorne berzerkers, don't confuse them)
5.) Death Guard
6.) Emperor's Children
7.) Thousand Sons
(Alpha Legions true size is impossible to say)

All speculation of course, besides Black Legion which must be the largest and besides Thousand Sons which is most likely the smallest. I think the Legions that have retained some degree of organization and didn't devolve into twisted parodies of a specific Chaos God tend to do better.

the source comes from the chaos marines codex

Scorpionov wrote:the source comes from the chaos marines codex

Could you give an edition and page number?

LoneLictor wrote:

Scorpionov wrote:the source comes from the chaos marines codex

Could you give an edition and page number?

Index Astartes I pg. 30 has a quote:

"Warbands of the Emperor's Children are thankfully rare, for there can not be a fate in the galaxy worse then to fall prisoner to them."

I think it means Emperor's Children led Warbands...
They never seem to be in the lead spot when it comes to warbands...

I'd bump the Night Lords down below the death guard in numbers, things haven't gone well for them since Kurze's death according to Soul Hunter, Some have joined the Black Legion and they have ceased to operate as a unified force altogether.

That gives literally no indication of numbers, so knocking them them down bellow the Death Guard requires fluff you've invented.

iproxtaco wrote:That gives literally no indication of numbers, so knocking them them down bellow the Death Guard requires fluff you've invented.

I invented nothing pal I was merely expressing an opinion no need to be so touchy about it.

AFAIK the deathguard still operate as a whole entity apart from Typhons little band. Kurze destroyed Nostramo before the Heresy kicked off proper, reducing the abillity for the Night Lords to replace their losses early on in arguably the bloodiest conflict of humanities history, Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver suggest that recruitment is a huge struggle for the Night Lords and they also give examples of defections.

I can't prove this no but you can't disprove it either or you would have done so in your previous post. I'm extrapolating and infering from what I do know to work out what I don't and expressing a hypothesis on my findings, people have been doing that for hundreds if not thousands of years. I didn't say that it was a god given fact that I was correct to quote myself "I'd bump the Night Lords down".

P.S if your gonna knit pick other peoples statements use a dictionary or spellchecker on your own first.

I think it's safe to put Night Lords below the Death Guard. DG and their related warbands such as The Purge seem to be far more prevelant in fluff, recruitment was made out to be a specific serious issue for the Night Lords (see Soul Hunter), and legions without Primarchs seem to be in rather dire straights.

Easy there, both of you!

I would agree with Trog though, what he says is what I think with regards to the fluff concerning the Legions in question.

I would put WB 2nd and IW 3rd, as WB were the second largest legion (UM were first) pre-heresy and they seem to be the most organised after the BL, so probably are more effective at recruitment.

Edit: Ninja'd by Harraticus!

You're right of course Castiel, I should be less prickly It's been a long day, My apologies Iproxtaco.

Also I have probably been spending a little too much time on the SW:TOR forums things are a little more aggressive over there, I've forgotten what a civilized forum is like.

Yeah... civilised.

I'd say that it's impossible to put them in order apart from the Black Legion being the biggest. Who knows how many World Eaters have killed themselves through infighting?

Black Legion > Word Bearers > Iron Warriors > Death Guard > World Eaters > Night Lords > Emperors Children > Thousand Sons.

Legions with the most organized cohesion do the best. Lord knows what Alpha Legion is. Total Traitor Astartes range from 100,000 to 150,000

Bam, my dumb speculation

Harriticus wrote:Black Legion > Word Bearers > Iron Warriors > Death Guard > World Eaters > Night Lords > Emperors Children > Thousand Sons.

Legions with the most organized cohesion do the best. Lord knows what Alpha Legion is. Total Traitor Astartes range from 100,000 to 150,000

Bam, my dumb speculation

I'd mostly agree, apart from sticking the WE at about the same level as the EC. For all that they were bigger before the Heresy, most of them are insane butchers now, killing each other as well as enemies.

I'd say AL were about the size of the BL, +operatives, heretics, etc.

Durza wrote:Yeah... civilised.

Seriously you don't know how calm and rational everyone on this forum seems in relation to the SWTOR forum.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That gives literally no indication of numbers, so knocking them them down bellow the Death Guard requires fluff you've invented.

I invented nothing pal I was merely expressing an opinion no need to be so touchy about it.

An opinion derived from the book Soul Hunter, which does not give any indication of numbers.

AFAIK the deathguard still operate as a whole entity apart from Typhons little band.

Nope. Once the Plague Planet was found, many parts of the Legion went off to follow their own Champions. The Death Guard are far from a cohesive whole.

Kurze destroyed Nostramo before the Heresy kicked off proper, reducing the abillity for the Night Lords to replace their losses early on in arguably the bloodiest conflict of humanities history,

They wouldn't be replacing their losses during the Heresy since the creation of a Space Marine takes years which Horus and his allies did not have.

Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver suggest that recruitment is a huge struggle for the Night Lords and they also give examples of defections.

The first part is true, but it's not because Nostramo is gone. The second part is not quite right. A single Night Lord was given to Abaddon as a gift.

I can't prove this no but you can't disprove it either or you would have done so in your previous post. I'm extrapolating and infering from what I do know to work out what I don't and expressing a hypothesis on my findings, people have been doing that for hundreds if not thousands of years. I didn't say that it was a god given fact that I was correct to quote myself "I'd bump the Night Lords down".

I'm not trying to prove that the Night Lords are larger than the Death Guard, simply that whatever fluff you're using either doesn't exist or has been misinterpreted.

P.S if your gonna knit pick other peoples statements use a dictionary or spellchecker on your own first.

"Watch out, we got a badass over here".
Really, an insult to my grammar or spelling? Good one.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:You're right of course Castiel, I should be less prickly It's been a long day, My apologies Iproxtaco.

Also I have probably been spending a little too much time on the SW:TOR forums things are a little more aggressive over there, I've forgotten what a civilized forum is like.

Miss this post did you, Iproxtaco?

Calm down and move on.

No I saw it, I just chose not to insult or get angry. Perfectly calm in the above post.

iproxtaco wrote:No I saw it, I just chose not to insult or get angry. Perfectly calm in the above post.

Also perfectly unneccessary. Grow up, accept the apology and move on, rather than putting in another unneccessary and post that helps noone.

Rah rah rah rah, angry, err.

How common is the whole Chaos Space marine replacement thing?
You've go the black Friday deal that Fabius puts out for them...
I guess alot of them could just sorta, not die, or get back up in the Warp, or some nonsense (but that is complete conjecture)

Other ways?

CpatTom wrote:Rah rah rah rah, angry, err.

How common is the whole Chaos Space marine replacement thing?
You've go the black Friday deal that Fabius puts out for them...
I guess alot of them could just sorta, not die, or get back up in the Warp, or some nonsense (but that is complete conjecture)

Other ways?

Assumedly they have some method of implanting gene-seed into young cultists, otherwise they wouldn't steal the stuff in the first place. The Iron Warriors developed a way of creating marines from older candidates (though it had a few unfortunate side effects). They also accept new traitors into legions sometimes. Fabius Bile is just a few steps ahead.

iproxtaco wrote:

Kurze destroyed Nostramo before the Heresy kicked off proper, reducing the abillity for the Night Lords to replace their losses early on in arguably the bloodiest conflict of humanities history,

They wouldn't be replacing their losses during the Heresy since the creation of a Space Marine takes years which Horus and his allies did not have.

The Heresy only lasted about 7 years true but the scouring lasted much longer, I believe it to be somewhere in the region of 20 but I'm not sure. Other legions could have arguably had some reinforcement during this time with the exceptions of the Night Lords, the Iron Warriors and the World Eaters (mainly because I believe they would have given up on any meaningful legion structure and procedures by this point.

Castiel wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No I saw it, I just chose not to insult or get angry. Perfectly calm in the above post.

Also perfectly unneccessary. Grow up, accept the apology and move on, rather than putting in another unneccessary and post that helps noone.

You're hilarious. I'm not even bothered by what he writes, really. I disagreed with what he posted, you're the only one here assuming it's at a personal level, which it is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Kurze destroyed Nostramo before the Heresy kicked off proper, reducing the abillity for the Night Lords to replace their losses early on in arguably the bloodiest conflict of humanities history,

They wouldn't be replacing their losses during the Heresy since the creation of a Space Marine takes years which Horus and his allies did not have.

The Heresy only lasted about 7 years true but the scouring lasted much longer, I believe it to be somewhere in the region of 20 but I'm not sure. Other legions could have arguably had some reinforcement during this time with the exceptions of the Night Lords, the Iron Warriors and the World Eaters (mainly because I believe they would have given up on any meaningful legion structure and procedures by this point.

7 years isn't exactly a long enough time to start producing large amounts of reinforcements. You have to get the geneseed from the deceased Astartes, take it to their homeworld, test the next batch of recruits, train them and implant them, and then equip them, before taking the recruits to a battle-zone. Horus realized that he couldn't play the long game, the Emperor still controlled enough forces to end him. So, he gambled with one final attack that would see him victorious or utterly defeated. There was no time for him to sit and recruit heaps of new Astartes to replace his losses. The loyalists may have had some time, but not enough to rebuild to any significant level.

iproxtaco wrote:

Castiel wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No I saw it, I just chose not to insult or get angry. Perfectly calm in the above post.

Also perfectly unneccessary. Grow up, accept the apology and move on, rather than putting in another unneccessary and post that helps noone.

You're hilarious. I'm not even bothered by what he writes, really. I disagreed with what he posted, you're the only one here assuming it's at a personal level, which it is not.

The badass comment appeared pretty personal. Anyway, I was trying to keep the peace, so I won't argue with you.

As to the Emperor's Children, I suspect that they probably don't have the recruitment infrastructure of some the other Legions, but they probably do still recruit a substantial amount. So they're probably smaller than most Legions, but probably not dying.

the fact that you keep mentioning it is why there's an issue.

As far as the OP, the emperor's children have little to no desire to actually lead. That's why they're noise marines. They just want to go somewhere where there will be lots of BDSM and prisoners. As noted, even their primarch left, because slaneesh bends to no master, only the master of experiencing the limits of everything. So Emperor's children are really more mercs now, just like WE. Nightlords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha legion have maintained their own coherency, while the black legion takes in every new body it can get its hands on. The word bearers are also mercs as I recall, they go where they can convert the most people. May be wrong as I read it on the Lexicanum.

iproxtaco wrote:[
7 years isn't exactly a long enough time to start producing large amounts of reinforcements. You have to get the geneseed from the deceased Astartes, take it to their homeworld, test the next batch of recruits, train them and implant them, and then equip them, before taking the recruits to a battle-zone. Horus realized that he couldn't play the long game, the Emperor still controlled enough forces to end him. So, he gambled with one final attack that would see him victorious or utterly defeated. There was no time for him to sit and recruit heaps of new Astartes to replace his losses. The loyalists may have had some time, but not enough to rebuild to any significant level.

I'm not saying he sat back and recruited all I am suggesting is that while the Heresy and the scouring were happening, a period of about 20-30 years, recruitment wouldn't have stopped for those legions with the capabillity. For starters no one knew how long it would last or what the outcome would be so I believe recruitement would have been normal if not at an elevated status. To counter the geneseed point while geneseed was undoubtedly precious it was no where near as rare as it is in the current 40k, Legions would have had stockpiles of the stuff ready to implant into recruits. Horus may not have been planning a long war but the scouring took place after his death and was almost as bloody as the Heresy and it pretty much devolved into every traitor legion for itself, The traitors just didnt run straight for the EoT the moment it was all over. Also just because recruits didnt turn out to be ready in time for the Heresy doesnt mean they wouldnt be utilized later, The Nightlords and Iron Warriors couldn't benefit from this.