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Hi Dakka, do you think that, all things considered, lychguard are a competitive unit?

Remember, even in a footsloggers army, crytek w/ Veil of darkness is there for mobility and the Rez Orb for survivability, and the lychguard cant run without at least one of them (or of course, another transport)

Can it be the case in a 1000 pts army, a 1500 points army or a 2000+ points army? Neither, all three?


This is a call to experienced players, but also open minded players


Thank you for reading

In a 2000+ points game? deffinately. 1500? Maybe. 1000- way too expensive.

They fill the same basic roll as Assault termies, but with worse saves(not by much).

The nice thing is that with the new Reanimation Protocols they are slightly more survivable against anything Worse than AP3(AP4+).

Against AP4+ 4.4444 Lychguard survive 5 Wounds, vs the 4.1667 Termies that survive.

With Dispersion shields and against AP3, the Same 4.1667 Termies and Lychguard survive.

Against AP2 or 1, and with Dispersion Shields vs SS+TH termies; 3.3333 termies survive, and 4.1667 Lychguard do(only 1.6667 LC termies will survive the AP2/1).

Against AP3 or lower without Dispersion shields only 1.6667 Lychguard survive

Close combat yields the AP4+ results for non-PWs; and the AP3 or lower results for PWs.

Then we get into the armaments.

Warsythe is nice for anti-tank; but unnecessary. It is also good for virtually guaranteeing that you wound what you hit.

hyperphase Sword and dispersion shield adds greatly to the survivability of the unit, and should deter low-ap Attacks when enemy models are ready to assault(but that is a rather poor ability to be honest, as these are not likely to be attacks sent at a unit about top be engaged in combat). Hyperphase sword is just a PW. So to be honest this combo is really just there for added survivability; I would not bother with it unless your opponents have lots of AP3 or less, or PWs.

They are similar to Assault Terminators but only looking at their survivability doesn't work. Without Dispersion Shields they are clearly much easier to kill than the Terminators as they lack an invulnerable, and without Warscythes they don't have the same kind of punch.

The main issue though is that they are incredibly slow. You can buy them a Night Scythe but its a terrible assault transport, as opposed to a Land Raider or Storm Raven which are both good assault transports. The Night Scythe isn't open topped, which means you are forced to move up really close and then survive a round of shooting. The problem is that if you are destroyed (which most of the time you will be with such a fragile vehicle) the unit disappears back into reserves and is basically no longer a factor in the game as its walking on from the back edge.

So, because the transport option they have is terrible you basically have to field them on foot, which means you have to take the Dispersion Shields if you expect to make it to combat. This leaves you with a unit which is marginally tougher than TH/SS Terminators, but they lack the offensive power that makes TH Terminators a threat (they can't beat up tanks and Dreads without thinking nor scare ICs away).

They excel against vehicles. Or they become quite resilient (no more resilient than wraiths. Slightly better against infantry, slightly worse against vehicles.).

In either case, they need support - mostly in the form of improved mobility. 2nd turn charges from night scythes could be good. Treat that unit like a cheaper terminator storrmraven?

But, at the end of the day.. you have a no-whip-coil I2 unit. Without the shields they are not resilient enough to survive that and without the scythes they are not really worth it when they do survive to that point.

Take a look at Lychguard after you have run out of fast attack slots. Then perhaps you have a winner. Even then, field a C'tan - could prove better for many reasons.

They have to choose between hitting power and durability.

If they choose durability then they loose their ability to seriously threaten things like Dreadnoughts and MCs, plus more heavily armored tanks.

If they choose hitting power then they become prey for power weapons in assault and for AP 3 or better shooting in general.

They have no access to any decent assault transport. Nightscythe has to boost to where it wants to go and then eat a turn of shooting before they can assault out of it, and with only a 4+ save and armor 11, dedicated fire will likely down it, stranding it in reserve. Models cannot assault the turn they roll out of a Monolith, nor can they assault the turn after being Veiled.

On paper and in a vacuum, they'll stack up decently vs most assault units. The problem to me is the rest of the picture. Phase Swords and the Shields are the smarter way to go, but they'll be in trouble vs dreadnoughts and other big things, plus anything with armor 11+ on the rear can pretty well ignore them. Add this to their lack of mobility options, and to me the unit just looks like a bunch of points better spent of Wraiths, Warriors in Arks, and other, more flexible things.

Theory hammers tells me you'll have a hard time getting the match ups you want. I think peppering in pairs of necron lords into other units is more effective. You have enough bodies to survive while still swinging the warscythe; and as an added bonus, you can pick up mind control too.

IMO, Necron Lords > Lychguard > Flayed Ones


-Matt

Since we are getting the Night Scythe involved:

When you buy them with the transport, you really need o give them Dispersion shields. In this manner, you can move the night scythe right up near an enemy unit and disembark the Lychguard(and fire the T-L Tesla Destructor at a nearby consentration of enemy models); now your opponent has some choices to make, He can either:

A) shoot at the Lychguard with weapons that can do some damage to them(High Str + Rending or low AP; T 5 means that the enemy is going to need to at least hit you with S4+ to hope to wound); and rick at least some of the shots bouncing into the unit they disembarked in front of.

B) move their unit outside of charge range and try to shoot up the Lychguard.

C) ignore the Lychguard to try and down that damn tesla-plane.

All 3 of these choices are purely advantageous to the lychguard; only problem is that it costs that extra 100 points for an already expensive unit.

I'm not a Necron player (anymore) but to me Lychguard just don't seem good enough.
The only reason I would want to take them is for the Warscythes, but if you don't give the the Dispersion shield then they are going to fall down very easily.

If they had 1 more initiative they would be competitive, since then you could, with nemesor, give them furious charge and have them hit at I4 for a turn.

As they are they are too slow and don't hit fast enough to really be competitive.

In 1k I had these guys with trazyn marching up the field, bad rolls saw trazyn drop to mindwar on the last turn otherwise they would have had a game winning objective. Can take some of the edge of your enemies Anti armor which was an incredible boon for my annihilation barges. Trazyns mind shackles locked down a wraithlord for the 3 phases needed for the lychs to drop it. As it is I won on kill points as my enemy had a farseer on a bike and a guardian left.

I think they have tricks available to them that people havent exploited enough yet. The trouble is how to move them around, but I wouldn't count them out yet.

racta wrote:I think they have tricks available to them that people havent exploited enough yet. The trouble is how to move them around, but I wouldn't count them out yet.

This. Just like every unit in the codex (with maybe the exception of wraiths) in a vacuum they may scratch some heads but they synergize with other units well. A Lord w/Scyth/Res Orb and MSS hiding behind 5-10 T5 3+/4++ RP4+ wounds is just nasty. Sure it's 290 to 490 points wise, but I think if you want this unit to really shine you need to go hard or go home.

Personally I think their optimal config is with certain HQs, Obyron being towards the top of his list. Obies Veil will keep them mobile, and Obies WS will give them the anti tank punch. If you really want to go WS I think Oby is you best option because he can give them the veil they need for mobility without taking up the court slot for the unit, and then you can drop a res lord with them to keep them up after they drop. Bring some Tomb Blades to TB up and give them some cover and you would be surprised how resilient this squad can be. Also bring in Nemo with a Chrono+Veil Court and he can DS with decent precision, and then pinpoint Obies squad in front and very close to their intended target. Nemo also has some snazzy USR's to dump on them.

Trazyn is an intriguing option because then you effectively have a hard hitting, resilient, elite squad, that is also a scoring unit. You also have a bunch of models for Trazyn to jump into if he dies.

Another point of contention, people act like with the basic power weapon (with shield) the unit lacks any punch. They are S5 power weapons, which statically are in the same neighbourhood as S4 lighting claws.

Conclusion, I think the unit has all kinds of potential if put together with the right pieces.

Yeah, the Shield & Sword with Warscythe lord & orb seems to be the best build. You get a hidden monstrous creature, 4++, 4+ RP, and S5 Power Weapons. There's not much in the way of delivery options, though, which is probably the biggest issue you'll be facing using them.

The issue I see with them is mobility. You have no good way of getting them into assault without weathering at least one round of shooting. That being said, the idea that they are less survivable than terminators is generally a misconception. Obviously they're weaker against AP3 weapons, but if you do the math the extra toughness and RP save make them more survivable than terminators in many situations. For more info on that statement, check out the thread on praetorians.

Nate668 wrote:The issue I see with them is mobility. You have no good way of getting them into assault without weathering at least one round of shooting. That being said, the idea that they are less survivable than terminators is generally a misconception. Obviously they're weaker against AP3 weapons, but if you do the math the extra toughness and RP save make them more survivable than terminators in many situations. For more info on that statement, check out the thread on praetorians.

Yeah they are definitely not the quick strike assault unit in the codex, TPs and Wraiths handle that job much more effectively. I think Veil, Mono's and Scythe can get them in the fray, and the Shields are clearly designed to punish your opponent a bit for that round of shooting your bound to take. In terms of the teleportation mechanics they have a bit more access then wraiths do, which leads me to believe that the best way to use them is to warp them across the battlefield in response to your opponents aggression in a particular area. (ie your warriors hugging an objective and some mean old Assault Termies are storming towards them in a LR. Veil the LG in front).

They're no doubt more survivable than TH/SS due to being able to avoid 75% of wounds with a res orb. The main issue I have is that a res orb is only useful if the opponent doesnt less wounds than you have models, so that's the huge risk you take when using them. Also you can have very few attacks back due to their low initiative.

Like a lot of necron CC options they probably are going to be better as counter assault protecting your other infantry than leading a charge

Mobility may be an issue but then again sometimes having them there will be enough to deter that AM squad from having a go at your warriors, or a deepstriking unit might have to rethink it's landing zone. If you have a monolith that can help offset them to.

I like the praetorians much better. Same cost, right? Same stat-line, except jump troops and fearless.

They are a defensive unit.

Necron firepower is insane at 24 inches but also very easy prey to assaults. The lychguard are a great way to park someone nearby with shields, who can hop into an oncoming assault unit to tie them down while the shooting can continue unmolested.

As a purely offensive unit, I don't see them having any serious potential against even mediocre assault units, let alone decent ones.

Sure, there's a role for counter assaulters. I just think they're a bit exepnsive for what they do, not exactly TH/SS termies.

They are good in that they threaten non-assault units with quick destruction. Versus Assault Terms, they lack a little bit, but assault terms are basically the best CC unit in 40k.

Dropping them off in somethings face, with a wall of hyperphase shields, and they might not even get shot. Necrons have very few overwhelming offensive threats, but lychguard definitely require an answer, and that's a vital part of a lot of strategies.

There is no reliable way to bring them to a certain spot at the battle field as already pointed out above. A Mono's portal, veil of darkness or Night Scythe are options but especially the latter two bear some risks.