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If a unit equipped with Mindshackle scarabs uses them against a unit with Force Weapons, could the controller choose to try and activate the Force weapon for it's use against the bearers own unit?

It doesn't give you permission to use the model's psychic power, so you can't.

The execption is Nemesis Force Weapons. If the unit the mindshackled model is in uses their power to activate the weapons, then the mindshackled model's wounds will cause ID along with the rest of the unit. If the mindshackled model is the first to strike, then the opposing player has to spend his psychic power at that point.

How is a Nemesis Force Weapon different from any other Force weapon? Nemesis weapons do not require you to activate them. Mindshackle scarabs do allow you to choose which close combat options to use, so the question really becomes is the Activation of Force weapons purely a psychic attack or is it a close combat option.

The difference is that if a unit activates its force weapons, all wounds caused by the unit cause ID, which would include the Mindshackle wounds. You still can't force the opponent to use a psychic power, however.

Out of curiosity, since NFW must be activated when they first wound, if the unit with the scarabs go first, would that deny the GK player from activating NFW on his turn, assuming the scarab hits wound?

Unlikely to happen (who only takes one Halberd?) but, yes. The GK player would have to activate the weapons after the Mindshackled model causes a wound.

Actually I think it would allow the Necrons to activate the Force Weapon. A Force Weapon gives the bearer another psychic power specifically related to the Force Weapon, and Mindshackle Scarabs give you permission to use all abilities of the weapon. Since the model would not have the power without the weapon, the psychic power MUST be an ability of the weapon that the Mindshackle Scarabs give you the option of using or not using.

Specific references:

Mindshackle Scarabs
...If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)...

Force Weapons
Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers. They have the same effects as power weapons, but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power, used in close combat, that can instantly extinguish the life force of any opponent.

Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. The normal rules for using psychic powers apply (remember that a psyker may normally use only one power per turn). If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value.

Underlined sections are what lead me to believe you may use a Force Weapon. The Mindshackle Scarabs allow the use of all weapon-conferred abilities, and the Instant Death psychic power is a weapon-conferred ability. I understand that the argument is shaky, but Mindshackle Scarabs are hardly a standard piece of wargear and I think the argument has enough merit that an FAQ is needed to clarify what GW intended with regards to these types of weapons.

I would say you can't force the ID test. However, with NFW, if the GK does not make the test he cannot do any ID in that turn. If he did do ID prior to scarab hits, then it would benefit from ID.

I can see this going either way but if it does make the opponent choose it would be great equipment for a D. Lord attached to Wraiths. If those Paladins don't want to activate their Force Weapons they won't be ID'ing the Wraiths either.

Aldarion, you underlined the right part, but it seems you interpreted it incorrectly.

The force weapons abilities and penalties are that it is a power weapon and it gives the using model 1 psychic power.

That is what mindshackle scarabs take.

A psyker can still choose to use their powers as they like, which you also underlined. If a psyker chooses not to use their power (or cant use another power) then the necron player cant force the psyker to cast it, as the psychic powers are not weapon based, but psyker based.

Also, read the part right between your underlined parts.

"Roll to hit and wound as normal... then take a psychic check to use the weapons power"

Now read mindshakle scarabs again: "Instead of attacking normally..."

It is clear to me, via multiple reinforcing rules quotes, that mindshakle scarabs do not let you use psychic powers, even psychic powers given to a model via a force sword.

That is an excellent point and probably more in line with what GW originally intended this item to do. I think the wording is silly, and as I demonstrated it could easily be interpreted either way, but I do believe you probably have the right of it. I'm interested to see what they do with the FAQ though because with them you never know.

Yeah, the wording of the cron book has me scratching my head. I mean, the death ray has some of the most convoluted wording I can think of! I definitely want a future faq to talk about mindshackle scarabs, so we can figure out what GWs intentions were.

I think I would have liked the scarabs more if they just kept it simple. "The victim attacks his own unit, and is under the necron players control for this assault phase. He can hit himself." That would have made it so simple!

Alternatively, they could have used the GK psyk-out grenade rules of when you roll a 6. Those rules already exist, and could easily have just changed the init check on the entire unit for the ld check on a single random model.

I can't really understand what everyone's problem is with the wording of the book (particularly the Death Ray). I don't think anything is poorly worded. They might cause interesting situations, but that's it.

Aldarionn wrote:Actually I think it would allow the Necrons to activate the Force Weapon. A Force Weapon gives the bearer another psychic power specifically related to the Force Weapon, and Mindshackle Scarabs give you permission to use all abilities of the weapon. Since the model would not have the power without the weapon, the psychic power MUST be an ability of the weapon that the Mindshackle Scarabs give you the option of using or not using.

Specific references:

Mindshackle Scarabs
...If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)...

Force Weapons
Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers. They have the same effects as power weapons, but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power, used in close combat, that can instantly extinguish the life force of any opponent.

Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. The normal rules for using psychic powers apply (remember that a psyker may normally use only one power per turn). If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value.

This.

RAW, this is exactly correct. Unfortunately, I expect this to get FAQ'd up so that it won't work anymore, because it makes Mindshackle Scarabs grotesquely overpowered for their cost. Consider them against the (arguably) most powerful single character in the game:
Mephiston has Ld 10, therefore he has exactly a 50% chance to pass or fail on the 3d6 Leadership test. If he fails, he only has an 8.3% chance to not instantly kill himself after using his force weapon. All 5 wounds, gone. While I currently agree with Aldarionn completely, I expect the Emperor to protect from this kind of abuse very soon.

Force Weapon activation is an ability of the character, not of the weapon. If it were the weapon's ability, it wouldn't count against the amount of psychic powers allowed per turn for a psyker.

somerandomdude wrote:Force Weapon activation is an ability of the character, not of the weapon. If it were the weapon's ability, it wouldn't count against the amount of psychic powers allowed per turn for a psyker.

The actual rule:

Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. The normal rules for using psychic powers apply (remember that a psyker may normally use only one power per turn). If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value.

Please note the apostrophe in "weapon's". The apostrophe is used to denote possession. That is, the power (instant death) belongs to the weapon. Even the general concept behind Mindshackle Scarabs enforces this point:

Mindshackle scarabs are one of the Necrons' chief methods of controlling alien races. At the bearer's command, tiny scarabs bury into the victim's mind and bypass cerebral functions, turning the victim into little more than a puppet under the control of the scarabs' master.

So although the force weapon's power may require drawing on the psyche of its wielder in order to activate, the Necron Lord is in control of the force weapon's wielder anyways. But this part is moot, as the actual aforementioned rule states that the instant death power is that of the organ, and not the grinder.

Really easy way to block this with most of my GK squads, use Hammerhand before combat. That way their psychic test is spent for the turn and they cannot activate the NFW anyway.

Just want to point out 1 thing regarding FW:

Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. The normal rules for using psychic powers apply (remember that a psyker may normally use only one power per turn). If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value.

That little bolded part right there, if you hit your side, you did not deal unsaved wounds to an opponent and therefore do not meet the requirements to activate ID.

azazel the cat wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:Force Weapon activation is an ability of the character, not of the weapon. If it were the weapon's ability, it wouldn't count against the amount of psychic powers allowed per turn for a psyker.

The actual rule:

Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn. The normal rules for using psychic powers apply (remember that a psyker may normally use only one power per turn). If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death, regardless of its Toughness value.

Please note the apostrophe in "weapon's". The apostrophe is used to denote possession. That is, the power (instant death) belongs to the weapon. Even the general concept behind Mindshackle Scarabs enforces this point:

Mindshackle scarabs are one of the Necrons' chief methods of controlling alien races. At the bearer's command, tiny scarabs bury into the victim's mind and bypass cerebral functions, turning the victim into little more than a puppet under the control of the scarabs' master.

So although the force weapon's power may require drawing on the psyche of its wielder in order to activate, the Necron Lord is in control of the force weapon's wielder anyways. But this part is moot, as the actual aforementioned rule states that the instant death power is that of the organ, and not the grinder.

Fluff, and nothing more. Again, if it is a psychic power belonging to the weapon and nothing more, then how many psychic tests can a weapon make each turn?

somerandomdude wrote:Fluff, and nothing more. Again, if it is a psychic power belonging to the weapon and nothing more, then how many psychic tests can a weapon make each turn?

You're selectively disregarding elements of this problem. Let's think of it another way: If someone takes over control of my car, they can then drive it. I cannot claim that they cannot drive the car because they only took over the car, and not the gas in its tank. The psyker is the gas tank that the force weapon runs off. Whilst the Necron Lord is controlling the weapon, said weapon may make use of any and all resources required in order to activate it.

The reason? Because the rule says that the puppet gains the buffs and debuffs associated with the weapon. The ID of the force weapon is a buff associated with that weapon, not with the character. If this were not the case, then a psyker would be able to activate ID even if he were not carrying a force weapon. Since that is not the case, we are given further evidence that the force weapon is the source of the ID effect, and not the psyker. The psyker is merely the vessel through which the psychic test is performed.

The idea behind the fluff is that the puppet wielder of the force weapon has the coerced desire to use the force weapon, but must pass the psychic test to determine if they have the physical ability to act out that desire.

EDIT: spelling!

azazel, that is incorrect. The weapon gives the model a power. The power is used by the psyker at the psykers discretion. It is in the underlined section you requoted.

azazel the cat wrote:The reason? Because the rule says that the puppet gains the buffs and debuffs associated with the weapon. The ID of the force weapon is a buff associated with that weapon, not with the character. If this were not the case, then a psyker would be able to activate ID even if he were not carrying a force weapon. Since that is not the case, we are given further evidence that the force weapon is the source of the ID effect, and not the psyker. The psyker is merely the vessel through which the psychic test is performed.

The idea behind the fluff is that the puppet wielder of the force weapon has the coerced desire to use the force weapon, but must pass the psychic test to determine if they have the physical ability to act out that desire.

I would disagree on both rules and fluff perspectives.

Rules: The weapon grants a power to the wielder - it doesn't have a power.
Fluff: The weapon acts as a focus for the wielder's power, it has no inherent power of it's own.

DevianID wrote:azazel, that is incorrect. The weapon gives the model a power. The power is used by the psyker at the psykers discretion. It is in the underlined section you requoted.

The weapon doesn't give the model a power, the weapon is the power. The psychic test is just to see if the model is able to pull it off. Similarly, my car keys do not give my mind the ability to start my car. The keys themselves start the car; they just require me to activate my brain (slightly) first.

And anyway, the discretion of the psyker is overwhelmed by the mindshackle scarabs anyway. That's what they do.

"remember that a psyker may normally use only one power per turn"

So if, as you claim, the WEAPON is the power, then this limit would not apply. The Psyker is explicitly using the power.

You have the discretion in using weapons, you have no ability to force a psychic test. None.

Even if the force weapon did have the power, mindshackle scarabs don't allow you to force that model to take a psychic test so even though the weapon is capable of inflicting instant death, it is reliant on the unit making a psychic test which is beyond the abilities of mindshackle scarabs to force.

Further, the force weapon requires the model to roll to hit and wound as normal, despite mindshackle scarabs not being a normal to hit and to would event. Similarly the rules state that it can only be used any one opponent that received the wound, the unit under the influence of the mindshackle scarabs is not an opponent.

By the strict RAW I'm pretty sure DevianID and Nosferatu have this one correct. The weapon grants a power to the wielder, and though technically that is an ability of the weapon that could be used, taking the psychic test to activate it is up to the player controlling the psyker. That said, I can easily see FAQ being released to allow this. The idea is that the Scarabs overwhelm the mind of the model in question and place him under control of the Necron Player, so it's entirely possible that GW intended for any and all abilities of the model to be included in this, and that the wording is poorly written. The other possibility is that they intended to only have specific abilities of the weapon under control of the Necron player from a balance standpoint and the convoluted wording is intended.

Logically though some of it doesn't really make sense. For example, why would a Monstrous Creature attacking its friends under control of Mindshackle Scarabs do any less damage than if it were attacking enemies? The model is not in control of itself and thus should be unable to hold back. Why would a model with Rending as a base rule (Wraiths. Thunderwolf Cavalry) not be able to use it unless it's attached to the weapon they are wielding if they are attacking friendly models that they perceive as enemies? It just makes no sense.

Then again, balance doesn't have to make logical sense so I could be totally wrong, but it just seems like a very strange discrepancy between the description of an item and what it actually does in game. Kinda like how Tau are described as forming controlled fire groups and going into a shooting frenzy when an Ethereal dies, but game-terms they gain Preferred Enemy....something that has no effect on ranged weapons....*sigh*

Aldarionn wrote:The idea is that the Scarabs overwhelm the mind of the model in question and place him under control of the Necron Player

Actually, the fluff on the scarabs is that they BYPASS the victims mind to control their bodies directly. Which explains why the scarabs do not fight at full effect (mephiston only does 3 hit max, instead of 6). As for why models like thunderwolves may lose rending, well from a fluff perspective you would imagine that the scarabs dont know how to fight in a body they are taking limited control over as well as the victim would. Also, the leadership test involved in the scarabs indicate that the victim is fighting back against the controlling effect of the mindshackle scarabs with their mind, as opposed to the initiative based version of the psyk-out grenades that the GK use that make the victim fight at full effect with all their abilities and special rules.

I can't seen anyway in which this works.

From a game standpoint, the ID takes a psychic test. The necron player has no control over taking, or not taking, the psychic test.

From a fluff standpoint, psychic powers are of the soul, something which necrons have no providence over.

DevianID wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:The idea is that the Scarabs overwhelm the mind of the model in question and place him under control of the Necron Player

Actually, the fluff on the scarabs is that they BYPASS the victims mind to control their bodies directly. Which explains why the scarabs do not fight at full effect (mephiston only does 3 hit max, instead of 6). As for why models like thunderwolves may lose rending, well from a fluff perspective you would imagine that the scarabs dont know how to fight in a body they are taking limited control over as well as the victim would. Also, the leadership test involved in the scarabs indicate that the victim is fighting back against the controlling effect of the mindshackle scarabs with their mind, as opposed to the initiative based version of the psyk-out grenades that the GK use that make the victim fight at full effect with all their abilities and special rules.

No, they bypass cerebral function which is not to say they bypass brain stem function which controls the bodies automatic functions and instinctive behavior, which is something the model with Mindshackle Scarabs could theoretically draw on to use the body more naturally. I can see how it might be impossible to use higher brain functions like psychic powers, but using a models physical bulk to crush armor seems like a rudimentary function that would be incredibly easy to control. Additionally, the controlled model strikes at their own initiative, meaning if they were being controlled 100% by the Necron they should not be as quick or responsive as they were on their own and should strike at the Necrons initiative. This suggests that the Necron is able to draw on the bodies own reflexes and use them to advantage.

Then again, there has to be a line drawn somewhere which is why balance doesn't care about fluff, so limiting them to simply strike at the bearers strength using their weapon but no other special rules seems like a good compromise.

For the record, I think there is no chance the mindshackeled target does not use rules like rending. That's a property of the weapon/body, not the mind.

MCs will still ignore armor, warscythes will still have +2 str, hablerds +2 init.

For that matter, I would imagine furious charge would still work.