Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

lately i have been seeing an increase in 2+ units amongst the MEQ armies I normally play .Normally i rely on 20 shootas to take down TEQ but that relies entirely on bad rolling which sometimes doesnt go your way.Which made me look at the codex for some effective AP2 the only really options are kans or koptas with megablastaz , since i run battlewagons the kans are out of the question leaving only koptas.A squad of 5 KMB koptas will run 200pt and give 5 24" S8 Ap2 shots on a scouting jetbike.My list current list looks something like
2 shoota wagons
1 Manz wagon with gaz
1 burna wagon with kff
2 loota squads
2 rokkit buggies squads

I was thinking the koptas would make a decent additional tank hunting/harassing unit but the lack of TL on the KMB and the horrible moral of the unit make me question weather or not it is worth taking just for some AP2 which has no effect on vehicles and is just as good as an AP 3 rokkit against MEQ.

200pts for 5 BS2 shots isn't that helpful. As Orks, your best chance against TEQs is either to swamp them in close combat or avoid them (blow up their Land Raider and they have to walk).

Pile on so many shots that they can't help but fail a few.

Lootas are good for this, as is a burnaboyz multitemplate from a vehicle.

Deffkoptas don't really cut it, because even if they do hit the termies still get their invulnerable...

Orks lack affective AP 2 or anti-armour, really, so weight of fire is pretty much the best TEQ killer.

What about (gasp) 200 points of Flashgits! Drop the burnas and add their points to the 200. Add combi-skorchas to the MANz so you still have the template action - which is a good method for creating lots of saves.

Im building Flashgits because I think its where the codex needs to go to handle all the TEQ popping up. Not an ideal solution!

OR

Forego the BW plan and go Kans with KMB's and mobz of 30 Shootas and make them roll saves.

Burnas and mass sluggas are the best answer. The SAG big mek and the zzap guns are the fun answer.

I was looking at some Koptas for my list but I don't think their points cost is justified, same with flash gits. Mass shots is deffinatley the way, it works for me every time.

kaiservonhugal wrote:What about (gasp) 200 points of Flashgits! Drop the burnas and add their points to the 200. Add combi-skorchas to the MANz so you still have the template action - which is a good method for creating lots of saves.

Im building Flashgits because I think its where the codex needs to go to handle all the TEQ popping up. Not an ideal solution!

OR

Forego the BW plan and go Kans with KMB's and mobz of 30 Shootas and make them roll saves.

Actually lootaz are better at killing terminators than Flash Gits point for point. And lootaz aren't exactly good at that either.

KMB on both buggies and koptaz should never be used. You are not only paying a lot of points for a mediocre weapon, but also lose twin-linked in the process. Five shots BS2 are much more of a gamble than those shootas, especially considering that they still get 5++ saves. Not to mention that even a single tankshock has a very big chance of running the entire unit off the board. Boyz are the best unit to kill any terminators, this has nothing to do with bad rolling. Lots of shots/attacks mean lots of failed saves, no matter how good those saves are. I have yet to see a unit of terminators surviving getting shot and charged by a unit of 20 boyz.

Lootas work best imo, But i find Koptas with Buzzsaws get the job job very nicely esp againts my friends crisis suits dunno if its smart but sure as hell works.

For this exact same problem I have been debating the KMB on koptas as welll. Also looking at burnas with the Mek boy( i bleive he has a KMB standard.) A burna unit can include up to 3 Meks I think, same with lootas-although it doesnt make as much sense w lootas.

Throw 7 burnas in a trukk or behind the Kan wall w 3 meks to make a unit of 7 burnas 3 meks with KMB. I guess if you wanted you could cut the group to 2 burnas and 3 meks. This would get you three KMBS and 2 burnas for only 75 points.

If I said I had a problem 3+ as orks have virtually no ap3 guns. You'll tell me it doesn't matter .
If the enemy takes 2+ units they'll have half the number of units which can survive double the number of shots. I tell you it doesn't matter .

5 KMB shots at bs 2=1.7 hits. 1.7 KMB shots at 2+ to wound=1.42 wounds. 1.42 wounds against a 5++ save= .95 unsaved wounds. You also take .45 wounds yourself from Gets Hot! So you pay 200 points to kill about 40.

Now lets see what happens if you shoot and charge with 20 shoota boyz.

40 shoota shots at bs 2=13.3 hits. 13.3 hits wounding on a 4+=6.7 wounds. 6.7 wounds against a 2+ save=1.1 unsaved wounds. Then we charge in. 60 boyz attacks hitting on a 4+=30 hits. 30 hits wounding on a 4+=15 wounds. 15 wounds against a 2+ save=2.5 unsaved wounds.

Then your pk nob strikes with 4 attacks hitting on a 4+=2 hits. 2 hits wounding on a 2+=1.7 wounds. 1.7 wounds against a 3++ save= .7 unsaved wounds.

So you get a total of 4.3 unsaved wounds, which almost wipes the whole unit before it gets to strike. The remaining hammernator squishes a boy into a paste, and then dies next turn, which is great for the boyz who can't be shot at. Did i mention it costs 40 less points? And that i let the kmb koptas shoot at non-ss termies? And yet they STILL do worse?

Yeah, the Mekboys with the KMB... What the hell were they thinking? People rag on the Flashgits, but really the mekboy upgrade for lootas & burnas, just the worst of the codex units.

I've found them useful in a burna unit on a BW (to keep the thing rolling, not to shoot), sometimes, but in lootas they're pretty much unusable.

Frankly the reason they're in there is because they can sell more Loota/Burna kits if one in 5 models is useless

Ascalam wrote:I've found them useful in a burna unit on a BW (to keep the thing rolling, not to shoot), sometimes, but in lootas they're pretty much unusable.

Frankly the reason they're in there is because they can sell more Loota/Burna kits if one in 5 models is useless

Yeah, such a cynical ploy.

In the Loota slot it's pretty hard to come up with a reason to make one loota a mek-only reason I can think of is if you have boomguns in the back line and need to reapir a weapon. But nobody really does .

The KMB on a Kopta is an expensive investment, the truth is you might go the whole game and completely waste 40 points on a unit that never lands one hit. Has anyone here ever seen a kopta go past round 2? The problem is that the KMB is most likely to die in one round.

Now the KMB in the burna group is more interesting to me. I haven't tried it, but the burnas in a wagon with a few KMB's that are most likely going to last 3-4 rounds at least is a decent idea. 3 KMBS firing for 3 possibly more turns is at least 9 shots.

I am not the best at Mathhammer but basically that's .333 x 9 = 3 AP 2 STR 8 hits for 45 points investment. Think of it as a tri-linked KMB in your battlewagon for 45 points. If you pick your targets correctly then it could be a decent buy, hell just to pop one termie/dread/etc makes it worth it. it's just an option, but after reading this thread, I think it's a much better option than the 40 point KMB+Deffkopta that will explode turn 1.

Kustom Mega Blastas have the Gets Hot! Rule. I ran 15 on Deffkoptas against Gray Knight Terminators and I wound up causing more wounds on myself than I did on the GKs. They will instant kill the Terminators, but they lack the accuracy of Twin Linked Rokkits. I have also found that Grotzookas will cause more wounds on Terminators than IK Mega Blastas on Killa Kanz.

The big failing with Lootas and Burnas is that they cannot take a Nob. As for the Mek in a Burna Mob, it is a waste of a Burna. I have put a Power Klaw Bosspole KFF Big Mek with my Burnas to be their "Nob", but for the high point sink for the combo, I would rather have more Boyz.

I fielded 96 and 4 Nobz with that Burna Boy/Big Mek Mob easily in a 2000 point army tonight. The Big Mek was singled out in assault and the Burnas broke with 7 left, never to return. For their cost I could have fielded another 26 strong Boyz Mob, and it would have taken a lot more than 8 wounds for them to take a morale check.

The 3 KMB with the burnas does seem interesting it gives the burnas a option for early game tankhunting since my burnas dont tend to see action till turn 3+ on average.although im not too keen on 1 kmb dying a turn to gets hots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
on a side note think of the bigmek with a burna as a I4 S5 beatstick not a powerklaw option for the burna squad.Bigmeks are far to easy to kill in CC and with the burna are at least allowed to kill a few guys before he goes down .

Might i suggest that you try out some koptas without upgrades, yes they actually don't naturally come with rokkits.
Now you have 5 tl big shootas to pile on shots on the termies along with your shoota boys, then you could instead invest in some claws on the flying bikes.
Have never tried this out tho, seeing as there is only one marine player where I game...

one marine??? Do you only game with one other guy ?

Or maybe he lives somewhere where people have the good taste to play Xenos

There are only about five marine armies out of about thirty players in my area, and some of those are even only secondary armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, he does have a point, five twin-linked big shootas will kill more terminators than those KMB. However, units of five koptaz are a bad idea anyways due to leadership issues and falling back 3d6.

azgrim wrote:The 3 KMB with the burnas does seem interesting it gives the burnas a option for early game tankhunting since my burnas dont tend to see action till turn 3+ on average.although im not too keen on 1 kmb dying a turn to gets hots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
on a side note think of the bigmek with a burna as a I4 S5 beatstick not a powerklaw option for the burna squad.Bigmeks are far to easy to kill in CC and with the burna are at least allowed to kill a few guys before he goes down .

Yep thats sort of what I am thinking, maybe during the first 1-2 turns during the slog they can pop something. 45 points for 3 KMB's is definitely the best price you will get 3 AP 2 shots from orks. in small points games maybe go 2-4 burnas and 2-3 meks. Around 1000-1500 you could prolly run like 7 burnas/3meks. Gives that unit something to do until they get in. 2 rounds of AP 2 shooting 6 shots, should blast at least something, way more efficient than a 3 koptas with KMB for 120 points. Plus when the burnas do shoot, they will shoot again as well. It would also synergize w a battlewagon or trukk if you don't have a big mek to put in that wagon-you woulnd't need grot riggers and they will be shooting out of open top.

In a battlewagons you would lose templates you could stack, as well as powerweapon attacks when charging out of it, so I wouldn't exactly recommend that.

I can see them being useful in footslogging burna mobs, however footslogging any ork elite unit other than kommandoz usually ends with them dead before they reach anything. Also keep in mind that you can get big shootas for your meks at no extra cost, which are almost as efficient at killing 2+/5++ models as a KMB, without the danger of killing yourself and more range.

Grots R OP wrote:2 rounds of AP 2 shooting 6 shots, should blast at least something,

You may get 2 hits and 1 will get 1 dead Mega Blasta Mek. 67% chance to kill a single regular Terminator each hit, and 33% to kill a Storm Shield Terminator.

The Flame Template is only 7 inches long. If you stop to shoot and not run every Shooting Phase when you are within 24 inches of the enemy, that is even longer that your 15 point apiece Power Weapon totin' 6+ Armour wearing Elites will be be a juicy target. They die as easily as other Boyz, and there are only 17 of them at most, very easy to reduce them to 7 or less. No, if they come on, it has to be in a Battlewagon (not Trukk), with a KFF Big Mek somewhere protecting that. And even if you do assault Terminators, those with anything other than Thunderhammers and Powerfists are going first (like Lightning Claws, Swords, Falchions, Halberds, etc). If you are fighting Gray Knights, they can use Quicksilver to ensure ALL of them are going first. No need to activate Force Weapons to IK single wound Orkz.

To the OP, I truly recommend Shoota Boyz on Terminators, Slugga Boyz on Hammernators, and Killa Kan Grotzookaz, Frag Kannonz, and the SAG to strike from afar.

I honestly think that the little mek with the KMB may be one of the worst units in the game, and the worst in the codex.

I'd only ever put KMBs on kans (as vehicles don't suffer from Gets Hot), and then only if i knew i'd be fighting termies, otherwise rokkits are more generally useful.

Kanz also add are BS3 and it's only a 5 point costs over the rokkit which you would have taken anyways.

Putting KMB burna mob is bretty much a downgrade, though.