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Just heard that Phil Kelly is going to do it, not Matt Ward. ( thank you GW, thank you ).

Being that he has done Eldar, Tyranids, Space Wolves and Dark Eldar how do you think he will do Black Templars?

Black templars riding Cyber litanies?

I like Kelly's work better than Ward's or Cruddace's, and I'm one of the few people here who doesn't froth at the mouth with pure hatred for any of them. Also, he didn't do Tyranids, that was Cruddace. I think he could do a good job with them; the rules for Space Wolves represent the fluff well (outside of spammy builds, but that goes for any army) but he's more apt to writing xenos codices. I think he'd do a good job since he's been pretty on the ball since Codex: Eldar, but he's got a few problems with internal balance.

I think he'd do fine, but there's no codex author right now who screams "Templars" to me at all. The only one I wouldn't have do it is Cruddace. He just doesn't seem right for the job, even if I really like his Guard codex.

I don't know anything of the Eldar codex, the Tyranid one sucked, the Space Wolves curbstompiest marines, and the Dark Eldar codex is regarded as one of the best new codicies in terms of balance.

I feel pretty decent about this I guess.

Don't forget, Phil Kelly wrote the Orks codex too, which is pretty much the best thing.

I was initially pleased when I heard it was Kelly some time ago, but now I'm rather fearful.

Primarily because of the gaining-momentum rumor that it's going to be horde-focused. Foot Templars are fine; Horde Templars are not. If I wanted to play a horde army, I'd go orks or Guard.

Seaward wrote:I was initially pleased when I heard it was Kelly some time ago, but now I'm rather fearful.

Primarily because of the gaining-momentum rumor that it's going to be horde-focused. Foot Templars are fine; Horde Templars are not. If I wanted to play a horde army, I'd go orks or Guard.

At least your army won't feel like Vanilla SM anymore.

I and my Black Templar battle-buddy don't think they really need to be updated. They have one or two outdated rules which have been addressed. They are just a slightly more difficult codex to use due to being one of the last with real wargear, but it is also one of the ones that is the hardest to make an unimaginative spam list from, so I guess they do need an update...

It'll be interesting to see how they aim to make a MEQ army with horde Characteristics. SW style pricing but with a more aggressive slant? No wonder why Phil Kelly would be picking it up. Then again aren't there rumours that he's also doing Tau and/or Eldar?

Greyish wrote:It'll be interesting to see how they aim to make a MEQ army with horde Characteristics. SW style pricing but with a more aggressive slant? No wonder why Phil Kelly would be picking it up. Then again aren't there rumours that he's also doing Tau and/or Eldar?

Not really. I think Kelly is on the record saying fairly explicitly that he won't do Eldar as he doesn't want to re-write his own stuff or be pigeonholed as "the Eldar guy". Tau are anyone's guess as far as I know.

rockerbikie wrote:

Seaward wrote:I was initially pleased when I heard it was Kelly some time ago, but now I'm rather fearful.

Primarily because of the gaining-momentum rumor that it's going to be horde-focused. Foot Templars are fine; Horde Templars are not. If I wanted to play a horde army, I'd go orks or Guard.

At least your army won't feel like Vanilla SM anymore.

They don't feel like vanilla SM now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Greyish wrote:It'll be interesting to see how they aim to make a MEQ army with horde Characteristics.

That's the thing; the only way you can do it is by making the MEQ rather mediocre. Horde is, essentially, crudtastic soldiers, but craploads of them.

Seaward wrote:
That's the thing; the only way you can do it is by making the MEQ rather mediocre. Horde is, essentially, crudtastic soldiers, but craploads of them.

Which seems to completely counter what marines are supposed to be. Where does this horde rumour originate from?

Only way I could see it, is if they would have a lot of neophytes, instead of normal marines; that would kinda make sense as they probably have high casualty rate and are constantly recruiting.

Crimson wrote:
Which seems to completely counter what marines are supposed to be. Where does this horde rumour originate from?

Believe I came across it on Warseer; they've got a "compiled Black Templar rumors" thread going, including the horde focus, a new biker SC, Finecast Neophyte boxes (?!) and a few other things.

Brother Coa wrote:Just heard that Phil Kelly is going to do it, not Matt Ward.

You heard this where?

Well, the current 'dex doesn't force you to take even a single neophyte. Perhaps the 'horde' mechanic will be implimented by forcing a minimum number of neophytes into squads? (even if a basic templar squad starts with say 3 initiates + 2 neophytes, that means your foot squads will be 12 man minimum if take all 10 initiates?!)

I think Phil would do a decent job of it, mainly because he's good buds with Matt Hutson who's been the HQ's templar champion since codex armageddon! I don't doubt that Hutson will let however's working on templars forget about it if they do a trashy 'dex... Workplace rivalries tend to be the best kind!

Seaward wrote:

Crimson wrote:
Which seems to completely counter what marines are supposed to be. Where does this horde rumour originate from?

Believe I came across it on Warseer; they've got a "compiled Black Templar rumors" thread going, including the horde focus, a new biker SC, Finecast Neophyte boxes (?!) and a few other things.

I think the 'finecase neophyte box' part should be enough to warn you that warseer's rumors aren't 100% accurate. Neophytes are scouts. We have scout models in plastic. No way they'd switch to finecast. If they did, almost nobody would buy them, as anyone with black templar already have a bunch of current plastic, or last edition metal scouts-a squad of 5 scouts that costs as much as 10 tactical marines won't entice anyone when there is a plastic box for 10 bucks less still available.

kronk wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Just heard that Phil Kelly is going to do it, not Matt Ward.

You heard this where?

On several sites, 1d4chan, 40knation, Librarium Online...

Crimson wrote:

Seaward wrote:
That's the thing; the only way you can do it is by making the MEQ rather mediocre. Horde is, essentially, crudtastic soldiers, but craploads of them.

Only way I could see it, is if they would have a lot of neophytes, instead of normal marines; that would kinda make sense as they probably have high casualty rate and are constantly recruiting.

Though Black Templar players would probably pitch a fit and die frothing at the mouth, this is the way I have always envisioned the Black Templars. They are a very "frontal assault" style of army and that pretty much screams high casualty rates. It would be very fluffy if they had a higher number of Neophytes, or some kind of rules that placed more requirements on how many you had to take.

Of course, I'd say that would be pretty unlikely because GW wouldn't want to anger its players by radically altering the structure of their army, but, wait, they do that all the time.

Brother Coa wrote:

kronk wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Just heard that Phil Kelly is going to do it, not Matt Ward.

You heard this where?

On several sites, 1d4chan, 40knation, Librarium Online...

so nothing concrete, then.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:GW wouldn't want to anger its players

Where did you get that Idea?

Brother SRM wrote:Also, he didn't do Tyranids, that was Cruddace.

He did 4th ed Nids IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep, Kelly and Andy Chambers wrote Nids 4th ed.

Deadshot wrote:
Yep, Kelly and Andy Chambers wrote Nids 4th ed.

That's a dream team if you ask me. I miss Andy Chambers and his smug mug in the rulebook :(

timetowaste85 wrote:
I think the 'finecase neophyte box' part should be enough to warn you that warseer's rumors aren't 100% accurate. Neophytes are scouts. We have scout models in plastic. No way they'd switch to finecast. If they did, almost nobody would buy them, as anyone with black templar already have a bunch of current plastic, or last edition metal scouts-a squad of 5 scouts that costs as much as 10 tactical marines won't entice anyone when there is a plastic box for 10 bucks less still available.

I'm a cynic; I say Finecast Neophytes would be likely in the circumstance that their wargear's being altered, and they're more or less required in the FOC.

A horde SM army. That would actually be quite cool. They could be it by under pricing Neophytes and letting any squad take them for meat shields or extra bonuses. I hope that rumor turns out to be true.

Alright, I'll bow to the majority on this one. I don't think any Space Marine army should play like orks or foot Guard, but if the majority like masses of mediocre infantry and removing models by the armful, so be it.

Seaward wrote:
I'm a cynic; I say Finecast Neophytes would be likely in the circumstance that their wargear's being altered, and they're more or less required in the FOC.

I can't see them having any wargear whatsoever that would require you to buy new models. If there's a Finecast scout unit, it would be Helbrecht's command squad or a special character.

Black Templars are the "horde" divergent Space Marine chapter, whether you like it or not. They can still mech up, but moving across the field in huge swathes of infantry is kind of their playstyle. Extra movement for Righteous Zeal is a rule that pretty much dictates this style of play.

Zweischneid wrote:

Greyish wrote:It'll be interesting to see how they aim to make a MEQ army with horde Characteristics. SW style pricing but with a more aggressive slant? No wonder why Phil Kelly would be picking it up. Then again aren't there rumours that he's also doing Tau and/or Eldar?

Not really. I think Kelly is on the record saying fairly explicitly that he won't do Eldar as he doesn't want to re-write his own stuff or be pigeonholed as "the Eldar guy". Tau are anyone's guess as far as I know.

While the turning down Eldar part sounds like sanity, I'm levelling at the amount of rumours that all claim Phil Kelly is going to be writing their codex. As arguably the writer who gets the least flack online, seeing "[insert upcoming army] is being written by Mr. Kelly" everywhere is starting to make me feel suspect that many of these newer rumours are less fact and more blatant wishlisting.

Brother SRM wrote:

Seaward wrote:
I'm a cynic; I say Finecast Neophytes would be likely in the circumstance that their wargear's being altered, and they're more or less required in the FOC.

Black Templars are the "horde" divergent Space Marine chapter, whether you like it or not. They can still mech up, but moving across the field in huge swathes of infantry is kind of their playstyle. Extra movement for Righteous Zeal is a rule that pretty much dictates this style of play.

True, if for no other reason than that is the only style not already covered by a Marine Codex. Anything else would be stepping on the toes of one of the other chapters.

Brother SRM wrote:
Black Templars are the "horde" divergent Space Marine chapter, whether you like it or not. They can still mech up, but moving across the field in huge swathes of infantry is kind of their playstyle. Extra movement for Righteous Zeal is a rule that pretty much dictates this style of play.

That hasn't been their play style - or at least their successful one - for quite some time. It's also not terribly well-supported by fluff.

They like close combat. They have a habit of walking. They have never, in any of the fluff I've seen, chosen to simply throw quantity rather than quality at any given problem. That's not a particularly Space Marine-like way of operating.

They've also, for what it's worth, been significantly outnumbered in every piece of even semi-detailed fluff I've ever read about them. They are not orks. They will not overwhelm you with numbers. They will overwhelm you with pissed-off, highly skilled Marines with chainswords who can't wait to introduce them to your face. That's not the same as a horde.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I think Phil would do a decent job of it, mainly because he's good buds with Matt Hutson who's been the HQ's templar champion since codex armageddon! I don't doubt that Hutson will let however's working on templars forget about it if they do a trashy 'dex... Workplace rivalries tend to be the best kind!

that didn't stop ward with the BA